Vhalen

Yeah, I should quit stating facts as fact. It tends to get people all riled up for some reason. I humbly suggest you verify your information before you try to call me out as a liar. 211 nations in NPO have seniority of 166 days or less (beginning of Karma War). Now, I grant you this is no longer a perfect measurement by any means, but what it does say is that only 417 nations have been in NPO since before the war. They had over 900 nations when the war started, and I believe NPO Applicant had somewhere in the high 200's. While I don't have exact records on that, I'm sure someone does. That's one way of looking at it. We could also, say, describe the real situation.

Mostly inertia. You also had several hundred in NPO Applicant, most of whom suddenly vaulted into member status during the war, when NPO's member numbers began dropping. When the ~500 number shows up, that's what people are referring to.

So you prefer your witch hunts to be more informal, then?

I'm not one to post simply to offer congratulations or wave my arm in the air. (Though I'm not averse to including them. Congratulations, Cortath.) And now, onward to further comments! I've learned that when you comment on incorrect spelling, it's wise to check your own. There's an "e" in "drapes," Sir Paul. Since the IOs should bear a large portion of the blame for the NPO's recent mess, I wouldn't say that idea's entirely without merit.

If Moo (along with IOs) aren't above the Order, then NPO's doing a particularly lousy job of showing it. Personally, I would be inclined against a leader with known connection issues running a clearly tense set of peace talks, apparently without someone able or willing (whichever, they amount to the same thing) to step in and take over when he loses connection. Personally, I would be inclined against having inactivity at my highest governmental levels during times of major war. Personally, I would be inclined against continuing to support that leadership after its disastrous performance has been publicly displayed to Bob at large. Now, maybe I'm a bit eccentric in all this; I don't know. I guess I just don't have what it takes to be a Pacifican. Maybe Purple's already going to be part of Frostbite by then? It's a ways off, isn't it?

Please keep in mind that I wrote this pretty quickly, lat at night, off the top of my head. Other suggestions are welcome! Anyway: Given that people can only get 3-6 wonders in a round, and new economic wonders become fairly pointless toward the end of a round, the majority of economic wonders, notably those that give lesser effects than other wonders, as well as the most expensive/high-end ones (especially those with other wonder requirements) are basically worthless. I propose that some wonders be either removed, altered (either in price or effect), or replaced, to provide a more diverse field and increase player decisions. For instance, who's likely to bother with the SDC, UHC, NPP, or NEO as they are? They quite simply can't return on the investment effectively enough before the round ends. And how many basic economic wonders (+cash or +happy) do we need? Nobody's likely to buy more than two or three. Lastly, requiring other wonders is a heavy price, so those wonders with such requirements need to have a strong effect. Some of these things could be easily dealt with via price changes or tweaks in their effects. Movie Industry, for instance, is easily the worst happiness wonder. If it was significantly cheaper than the others, say $300k, people might consider buying it earlier, making it play differently from the others. NEO provides some slightly different bonuses than other economic wonders, yet the price tag is unfortunately too high to warrant exploring their usefulness. Among other problems, SDC's "tech happiness bonus" is completely useless (it also needs to have a wonder dropped from its requirements, I'd say, as it stands). What if some of these high-end wonders gave rewards toward the end of the round, such as: SDC - increases NS multiplier on tech at End of Round from 5 to 10. NEO - increases NS multiplier on land at EoR from 1.5 to 5. UHC - increases NS multiplier on infra at EoR from 3 to 5. NPP - increases NS multiplier on nukes at EoR from (Nukes^2)*10 to (Nukes^2)*15 (or 20 if you also have MP). War Memorial - gives 2% of casualties as NS at EoR. Now we have some significant choices to make. Of course, we could also approach this with some other options that do significantly different things. Since TE rounds end regularly, high-end wonders (especially with hefty requirements) can significantly alter things without destroying gameplay (most of the game being played before they can come into effect anyway). This opens the door for things like: Moon Mission - $30,000,000 - The moon mission exemplifies your nation's spirit in the face of adversity. Counts as 5,000 NS toward your total at End of Round. Requires 750 technology and Space Program. Advanced Aeronautics Program - $3,000,000 - Your scientists are capable of aeronautic wonders. You are permitted a third air attack per war, per day. Requires 600 technology, 3 Factories, and a Pentagon. Naval Engineering Program - $3,000,000 - Your scientists have achieved significant breakthroughs in shipbuilding. Your infrastructure requirements for ships are reduced by 10%. Requires 350 technology, 3 Drydocks, 3 Shipyards, and a Naval Construction Yard. I realize these last few could just end up an unbalanced mess, but they're examples of different sorts of wonder effects. Also, I just kind of threw numbers in there with very basic estimates. They're probably not quite balanced, but I wanted to get the ideas out there more than anything.

Well, I do know that a month or so into the war, over 160 members (4 pages @ 40/page) had less seniority than the length of the war, and of those, maybe a dozen had 10k NS or higher. Add to this that the "NPO Applicant" AA currently stands at 6 members. Prior to the war it was, shall we say, significantly more populous. Now, let's take a look at the math. By your numbers, we get about 350. Add to this the 160 minimum just discussed, and we're over 500 already. Now, I was just trying to explain to you what the discrepancy between your number for losses and the other poster's was likely caused by. You'll have to forgive me if this subject isn't meaningful enough for me to make any significant effort to dig up numbers (if it's even possible after this long) for the applicant AA, and running membership totals from from the war's onset until now, but denying that it happened just makes you look like a little kid with his fingers in his ears, going "La la la la la, I can't hear you!" Furthermore, since it seems from your previous response that you're set on completely ignoring anything I say, it's hardly productive to continue in this line, so with this post, I'm about done with this.

I hate to boil it down to such simplicity, but the answer can be summed up in one word: Effort. A lot of the above responses discuss what parts of an alliance matter to relevance (reputation, ordnance, membership numbers, intent/goals, etc.), but the simple fact is that these are all indirect determiners. Effort is the prima causa of relevance on Bob. The more effort an alliance puts forth (in, respectively, FA, war, recruiting, government, etc.), the more relevant it is. It's generally easier for a large alliance to become more relevant, because more people total typically means more active, effort-producing people. Even with a lot of nations doing the minimum, an alliance of several hundred is likely to have more people putting forth some genuine effort than an alliance of several dozen. However, a small alliance without the military strength that Bob discusses (or even a single person), can still be quite relevant geopolitically, if it/he/she produces a larger-than-usual amount of effort. Vox was a good example of this. In other news, this is boring, and I probably shouldn't have bothered writing it, but I'm not deleting it now.

I believe that number is taking into account the fact that NPO basically drained its applicant AA (at various times during the war, it was pointed out that those numbers had dramatically decreased, while the number of new, very low NS nations in NPO correspondingly increased), and they still ended up 300 or so nations down. Since many of the nations in question had been applicants for some time, and swiftly became members during the war period, there was apparently nothing prohibiting their joining prior to the wartime drop in NPO membership. Since they somehow didn't make it into NPO until it was necessary to camouflage membership losses, then suddenly got sworn in, their padding of the membership total can be seen as artificial. (I imagine these nations aren't being counted as part of the total, and that's the discrepancy you're seeing. Taking this into account, the 500 estimate is probably on the low side.)

All done. Thanks!

Well, since the directly competing circle seems to have filled, I'd like to point out that there're still a few openings here!

Bumped with new ppl listed.

It's a nice one. There are a couple other pretty solid ones too, if your resources don't fit this, though...and I don't know why I'm posting here. I'm trying to make the same circle and my resources cross up with you guys. I'll go back to my thread and compete for trades!

Beer, probably, though steel would be nice in the last week or two, to buy navy.

Circle complete! Hi. I'm making a trade circle again. Please join so I can stop paying attention to this! (I'll be checking up on the thread every hour or so today, when I can.) Beer/Fast Food/Construction, with radioactive fish! Aluminum - Itsuki sama Iron - Vhalen Lumber - Frank Castle Marble - bobendy Wheat - Frank Castle Water - bobendy Cattle - Abraham Wizwack Pigs - the demon rocker Spices - the demon rocker Sugar - Itsuki sama Fish - Vhalen Uranium -Abraham Wizwack

All done, then! Sent out messages.

Well, I have gold, so that's not really going to work either. Just acquired a spices/sugar trade, so we're almost finished. I'll start poking gems/fish people.

Aluminum doesn't really fit, so even if we were to lose the wheat guy, I don't think it'd help. You'd probably be better off looking at some other circles (FF/Beer/Construction, for instance).

Bump.

Are you kidding? Off the top of my head (and I stress the lack of effort that went into this brief retort): East End: Troegs: Victory: I could go on.

1) Most raiding nations at that range won't have SDIs. Even given the war, most people that far down either rebuilt already, or are under surrender terms. I grant the possibility, but I'd be it's not as common as you think. 2) I don't see long term fame coming out of this, if that was the objective, but I do think he can more than hold his own and make it unprofitable for most attackers, either by turtling/nuking, or just outmilitarizing the opponent, once the "trap" is sprung. If he does get a strong attacker, the defeat alerts from turtling wouldn't bug him too much, because, as you said, it's not hard to rebuild at that size, expecially if you have a 191 million dollar warchest. 3) He has 50 land. I doubt the reward's worth the risk in that department. I think it's a bit silly, myself, but hey, go for it if it's what you want to do with your time.

Well, I think it's largely a matter of taste. Insofar as most people will see the Uranium one FAR more often, I'd be inclined to leave the two as is. The radiation symbol is gonna have its time in the sun either way, and "atom molecule" is a nice looking picture that, if relegated to the lunar surface, won't get much air time.

Maybe after everyone's had more practice merging. Last time I tried it, it went all wrong.

It should be a top hat and monocle!

The Chinese ones, at least.