Fronz

[quote name='kevin32891' timestamp='1304831222' post='2708385'] Its all down hill from here. Conrgats [/quote] Oh, its been downhill for a wile now. I blame Allied_Threat

Horray! These points of data make a beautiful line! I give you the CSN government timeline: [img]http://images.wikia.com/cybernations/images/timeline/67eb51a5b8754b4c82d762e575209fcd.png[/img] This is indeed the end of an era, it was a great 2 years, Goose.

This treaty is terrible! How could anyone allow this to happen? [IMG]http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l133/Fronz_2006/Smilies/palp.gif[/IMG]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1299198883' post='2651698'] You had an advantage. Please do yourselves a favor and shoot your milcom guy(s). [/quote] Funny story, we didn't have one (or really any military staff at all) until the last two weeks of the war, I was appointed to Director of Finance about 3 days after we declared on LoSS, and we didn't really have much internal organization until 3 or 4 days after DT attacked I think the only place we really had an advantage was the upper tier, and the only way we were able to exploit it was because of the incredibly poor coordination between LoSS and DT, and their failure to stagger most of our upper tier nations. In the beginning of the war LoSS did a pretty good job flooding the lower tier people, but mid-way through the war I think they all ran out of money and stopped declaring wars. I made it my goal to keep in constant contact with all of our lower tier people to see who needed aid and organize where to redistribute money. I think the only reason most of our lower tier people were able to survive was because at that time we actually hunkered down and started setting up systems for better aid distribution and coordination between targets. If LoSS and DT had been more organized and effective in their staggers and coordination, we probably would have had to agree to white peace eventually, if it was still being offered. Conversely, If we had been more organized and effective in our staggers in the beginning of the war, we would have dished out way more damage. This was a good experience for us at least in learning how to really micromanage our troops and how to efficient operate an alliance during war time, and everyone knows, when you micromanage your troops, you win. [OOC: Insert lulzy Charlie Sheen winning reference here] Fake/Real Edit: Don't tell me about how we need to learn how to efficiently manage our PR during war time, yes you are very witty, but if you hadn't noticed, I think we stopped caring about our OWF PR in 2008, our MoFA staff generally has better things to do.

[quote name='Liz Girard' timestamp='1298955068' post='2647556'] Goose is quite turrible. [/quote] I say we coop him! /me goes to get a wire cage

Hurray, Peace. It was an enjoyable and interesting war I must say.

[quote name='mmansfield68' timestamp='1298246106' post='2639902'] We did not try to leave LoSS, and we NEVER insulted them. That's a cute lie you guys are spreading over there. Pathetic. [/quote] 6 days after war your government meets with ours, one of the first things said in this meeting is this: [17:28] <@TiTaN[DT]> We, at DT, feel like this war has gone on for too long. While we at DT are coordinated, LoSS has 0 coordination. We are looking to get peace That is a pretty clear cut example of your alliance trying to get out of war, even though LoSS was still at war. It's also somewhat insulting to do this behind their back and tell us they have no coordination. Some might call it throwing them under the bus.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1298242167' post='2639849'] [color="#0000FF"]The motivation DT had for hitting Legacy was to help out LoSS, who were having trouble with Legacy. Legacy being a decent alliance when it comes to fighting and all, whereas CSN, not so much. But enough about that. [/quote] What happened to their motivation 6 days after the war, did it evaporate? They pretty much said they wanted out and didn't care what happened to LoSS.

[quote name='Kilkenny' timestamp='1298241216' post='2639837'] Thought that DT attacked Legacy and YOU attacked DT?? [/quote] /me pulls out his e-lawyer badge. We sometimes like to refer to ourselves and Legacy as "us" in this war. as our treaty says: [quote][u][b]Law of Legend III: Allied Threat[/b][/u] An attack against CSN is an attack against Legacy and vise versa. As such if and when one signatory is attacked, the other signatory shall let the light guide them into battle against the infidel.[/quote] crisis averted

When they demand reparations, and we decide to accept them?...I was unaware the process of reparations negotiations would magically change for CSN. I would also consider the probability of that situation occurring in this war to be very, very unlikely.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1298240169' post='2639821'] Ah I see you're giving up on the 'huge reps for declaring on an optional clause' story, I guess because you realised how hypocritical that one was, and now you're going with 'huge reps for attempting to negotiate peace'. Wait, that makes absolutely no sense either. [/quote] Nope, nothing has changed, maybe my analysis of the situation is different, and for that I am truly sorry we do not all think in exactly the same mannor. We are demanding reps because they entered on an optional cause and tried to weasel out of the war without LoSS because they thought Legacy would be an easy target. Maybe you are confusing the actual CSN position with things people who are not in CSN have said previously.

[quote name='Jocabia' timestamp='1298238896' post='2639794'] We can only hope. [/quote] Yea, everyone thought Allied Threat would surly bring about the destruction of CSN. He has since been sacked.

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1298229929' post='2639645'] Instead of pointless debate here, maybe try doing your new job and put your FA in order by getting your knuckle dragging leader to see reality and give some reasonable terms for peace???? Instead he threw a tantrum in the blog section and took his toys and went home to cry......really conducive to things eh? Now THAT would be a change in CSN FA policy I could get behind..... [/quote] I don't think you understand, really anything about this situation, and what lead us to a general agreement that DT should pay reps in this war. Lets start off on the day DT declared war. [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97914]28th of January 2011 - Dark Templar Declare war on Legacy via the ODP NOIR[/url], Shortly after [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97917]CSN declares war on the Dark Templar via our MDoAP[/url] with them. I think we were more upset at this time with LoSS for calling in an ally when white peace was on the table, but other then that everything else was sunshine. I believe this front of the war would be closed right now, everyone would have gotten white peace, everything would have been sunshine. What lead to us demanding reparations? lets fast forward to 6 days after their deceleration, The Dark Templar approach us and Legacy and ask for peace, separate of LoSS. Without any logs this action already says, DT really doesn't care what happens to LoSS, they want to get out of the war and if LoSS is sucked into a vortex, well at least it was not their nations being destroyed. Lets move on to the logs, this one in particular helped to set the mood, it was our first discussion with DT, and one of the first things said is "[b]We, at DT, feel like this war has gone on for too long. While we at DT are coordinated, LoSS has 0 coordination. We are looking to get peace.[/b]" At the moment we might have not realized it, but what does this really say about DT? [spoiler] [17:28] <@TiTaN[DT]> We, at DT, feel like this war has gone on for too long. While we at DT are coordinated, LoSS has 0 coordination. We are looking to get peace [17:28] <Liz[CSN|MoFA]> On behalf of the freaky fish people too? [17:29] <Liz[CSN|MoFA]> Or just DT? [17:29] <@TiTaN[DT]> FHU, aslo [17:29] <Liz[CSN|MoFA]> Alright. I feel like this is something that we can deal with. Definitely. [17:29] <Liz[CSN|MoFA]> We like DT. Didn't expect ya'll to come in on LoSS' behalf tbh [17:29] <@TiTaN[DT]> They asked for our help lol [17:30] <Supa_Troop3r[DT]> Back Yeah we try to be unpredictable. [17:30] <Supa_Troop3r[DT]> [/spoiler] In our eyes, DT only attacked Legacy because they deemed them as an easy, isolated target that they could get in on the war with, and then slip away with white peace. Judging by the [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?app=blog&module=display&section=blog&blogid=38&showentry=2724&_gocomments=1&st=30]initial discussion between myworld and myself[/url] in Goose's blog I have gathered that DT never even expected us to defend Legacy because they thought Legacy's deceleration on LoSS lead to our treaty being non-chaining. At the time DT's Ally NoR was taking care of Legacy's other MDoAP Ally wF meaning Legacy would have no one to come to their defense. So Legacy was the prefect target, and the defense of LoSS was the prefect excuse. Unfortunately, things did not go well for DT, four days into the war they allowed their protectorate FHU to declare war on both CSN and Legacy. Shortly after FHU was countered by GOD, [HEY! THIS IS WHY GOD WAS IN THE PEACE DISCUSSIONS], probably trying to avoid having to declare war on GOD as required by their protectorate agreement, DT tried to get out of the war two days later, without a care for what they had done to the front, or the fact they were trying to abandon LoSS. So is CSN morally against using ODP's to enter a war? no, not really as Haflinger pointed out in that same blog post (page 4), we have let other alliances who declared with ODPs off without demanding reparations. The major difference between those alliances, and Dark Templar is when the going got rough, they didn't pack up and say "whelp, war was fun an all, but we are taking more damage then we would like, how about white peace, eh? besides the people we are defending suck, LOL" They did just the opposite and stuck around until their allies got peace, and for that you should not have to pay reparations. I've got to say I have gained a great deal of respect for LoSS, at first I was not really a fan for them and really didn't care for them or their members who post on these forums, but I can honestly say my opinion of them has changed greatly. Even though DT tried to abandon them, and insulted them, they are going to stick by DT until peace is reached, and for that, white peace remains on the table for them. As for DT, as I have said before, their actions clearly show what their true intentions were, and for that they will pay a price, as we (both CSN and Legacy) have deemed their action unacceptable.

Sorry, I left out that Goose added some more security features, and upgraded the forum software so the hackers could no longer use whatever exploit they were using. The shifting of the member opinion is completely irrelevant. Honestly I know how much you guys dislike us, but this pin the tail on the hacker game is ridiculous.

The moment they came to us and said they wanted us to grant them peace after 6 days of war, and they didn't really care what would happen to LoSS, how they were uncoordinated or whether they got peace, we realized they only attacked Legacy because they deemed them as an easy, isolated target that they could get in on the war with, and then slip away with white peace. I'm sure they didn't even expect us to defend Legacy because they thought our deceleration lead to the treaty being non-chaining. They may say their intentions were otherwise, but their action and words really make pretty clear cut. We deemed this unacceptable. NADC on the other hand actually fought for their allies, and would not exit the front until everyone got near white peace, (maybe the near white peace was BiPolar). They did not insult them or try to get out of war before them because they thought they were poor strategist, from what I remember they even helped organize and mediate talks (this also might have been BiPolar). In sort NADC actually had a vested interest in GDA and UBD, and they didn't declare just to get into a war, they declared to help out their allies. DT clearly did not, and that is the difference, that is why we are demanding reparations.

We have pretty definite proof it was hacking, based on forum logs. Funny that the hacks stopped when the membership opinion shifted completely to supporting reps. Accepting white peace after demanding terms, and sticking to them may make, as you suggest, us "Look Good" and "save us face" on the outside to those who have lost whatever little respect they used to have for our alliance, but internally it would be much more damaging, and that offer will never be accepted in its current form. As a government member I thought you would have realize this dilemma we would be faced with, or perhaps you thought we were not intelligent enough to realize this. maybe it was ignorance, whatever the case is, I believe at least Goose has made it clear white peace is not acceptable at this time, and I am sure Sarm has said something similar. It seems no matter what we do, our terms will never be acceptable, and that is really unfortunate for you and your alliance because I believe this blog is basically saying, we are at our wits end, this is Legacy and CSN's final offer.

[quote name='hizzy' timestamp='1298193746' post='2639337'] Let me get this straight... somebody says "xyz occured"... and when a 3rd party asks for proof, you provide us with someone else who says "xyz occured"? Is there something in CSNs water that turns people into drooling morons or is it part of your newbie academy? [/quote] Yes, [i]Obviously[/i] our alliance leader and forum administrator calling someone out for hacking his forums is incredible. [i]Clearly[/i] we invented the entire situation so we could get more publicity, its not like we don't have enough already, amiright? and really, if you don't want to believe my secondary source, that's fine too. The whole forum hacking thing isn't really relevant and there is really no need for it to be a hot topic issue worth debating over.

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1298195128' post='2639350'] I'm sure she was promoted to prove something to the OWF, right? Right? [/quote] LOL, by the grace of Xiphosis, we sure showed them! [IMG]http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l133/Fronz_2006/Smilies/problem.png[/IMG] Problem Planet Bob??

Not a chance, If you think our membership is in revolt now, I can't imagine what they would do to us if we told them, "Hey guys we accepted terms from DT, LOL." At least there would be a riot, and I have a feeling some of our members would go rogue on you and refuse to end the war. On the other hand it seems your alliance must convince its deserters to come back and offer aid rewards you guys are so desperate, or perhaps your members are just using our surrender offer as an easy way to peace out of their current wars to re-declare new ones?

Confidence juice (the reasoning has been posted many times, and I'd rather not get into that), my point was, we saw your deceleration on legacy as an activation of the mutual defense portion of our pact, as the treaty says "An attack against CSN is an attack against Legacy and vise versa."

What other treaty did they declare off?

You declared war on Legacy, we have a Mutual Defense and Optional Attack Pact with Legacy, what part of our counter deceleration on the Dark Templar is optional?

I'm tired of mamby pamby land. M.I.L.F

[quote name='Varianz' timestamp='1298174632' post='2639058'] Oh Admin no, not screenshot leaks! Anything but that! But seriously, how can you possibly blame DT for someone in [i]your[/i] alliance leaking screenshots? [/quote] You asked for proof, I gave you proof, now because they were leaked screen shots the proof is suddenly invalid? We never blamed DT, we never said it was someone in [i]our[/i] alliance. (OOC: The forums were hacked, a bunch of screen shots were taken and posted in the R&R deceleration thread) You assume too much, and are jumping to conclusions.

Simple and to the point.