Syzygy

You should just ignore the clowns. The show is not even funny any more. IRON shall just end the war unilaterally and move their nations out of PM and start rebuilding/paying reps whatever the others from the "losing side" do. The adequate response to this nonsense from Gre is just "lol blah blah blah go <snip> yourselves!".

[quote name='Blue Lightning' date='12 April 2010 - 01:43 AM' timestamp='1271029367' post='2256694'] Shamshir: If you're just going to give white peace, then give white peace. If you're going to demand reps, then demand reps. If you want to end this war, then do so. It's completely within your powers to end the war today or tomorrow if you wanted to. The trouble is, you are demanding that you opponents hand over the keys to their alliance to you, and trust that you wont run it into the ground even though you have the power to do so (though your government is just saying "Hand over your alliance" with no implication of what may follow). This is a term that Gremlins would never accept it's self, and so by issuing this demand, you are already violating your own codex. How are IRON or DAWN meant to take your codex seriously when you've already violated it in this (and several other) way(s)? [/quote] They violate their laws as they see fit, as already said multiple times now by some of their own members, they just "do what they want as long as it seems to be fun". The alliance still using the name "The Grämlins" has thrown away the behavior they are obligated to in the preamble of their own charter, you cannot take anything they say serious any more. A lulzy and hollow shell of an alliance is everything they are now, playing around with the bit of proxy-might coming from the few friends/allies they still have. Just clowns not worth being recognized any more since even the level of entertainment is pretty low.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='02 April 2010 - 12:09 AM' timestamp='1270163337' post='2244492'] You misunderstood. You asked why I was still here. ... to help steer a ship you abandoned [/quote] Stop spreading this lie of "abandoning". When HellAngel, I, or many of the others left the alliance was not even close to be in danger. We retired after doing a damn great job for many years because it was time. You were not abandoned. You were trusted to keep up our good work. You were GIVEN what we created because we trusted you to continue the legend we started. You were never 'abandoned'. You simply had neither the intentions nor the qualities to fit in the shoes of the old guard. And instead of disbanding the alliance to at least give it a honourable death so it can go to history unsoiled, you turn it into a joke of its former self. Shame on you. Shame on everyone still being there. You are no Grämlins.

As Ejay already said, the alliance now operating under the AA "The Grämlins" has nothing to do with the one that once has achieved greatness. They are not upholding their own charter. They are not valuing their own laws. They are not Grämlins. Unfortunately the continued hesitation of the old core members to disband the alliance when its spirit was lost, led to the point where a "new group" of people not sharing the principles anchored in the Charters Preamble could legally "take over" and are now enjoying the fame and glory of the old days while soiling the legend every day with their actions. I deeply regret today, that our will to trust this 'new generation' was greater than the voices that warned us about their intentions and qualities to lead by action. As founder and one of the creators of the old Grämlins it saddens me the most to see what those traitors and impostors are doing with the alliance they inherited from so many really great people. This alliance is our child. I, and lots of others, cared for it. I, and lots of others, grew it. And now we wish it to die quickly and finally rest in peace before the name of what we love is further associated with this new style. Shame on all who still stay there to prolong the suffering and decay. Their 'merger' with FH was their last straw to somehow keep the numbers up and keep looking important. But their core is already dead. All those currently associated with them, mark my words: They are not Grämlins. They are not worth being called Grämlins. They are just a hollow shell of former glory, abusing the repuation others built, for their own goals. RIP Grämlins.

I do not agree with your conclusion about the Polar war, which is also an complete other topic and the newly enflamed discussions about it's legality are imho a try to rewrite history. If you want to discuss it and exchange arguments, just search for one of the dozen old topics where both sides explained themselves over and over until the other side didn't even bothered to read any more. That being said I don't count this war as purely aggressive, since there was very good reason to act and while painful, the goal was never to see Polar completely destroyed, nor was ever worked towards that result. As far as I remember I fought for Gre in this war and the relations between Gre and NpO were afterwards way better than before, because finally there was room for open words after meeting each other honourably on the battlefield. All other wars of TOP I remember were actions in support of their allies at this time, some of them (GPA) were afterwards discussed most heavily and even lots of TOP members said afterwards they wished this war hadn't taken place. I can't say at all that TOP is an overly aggressive alliance, else I wouldn't have joined there, nor would have many of the other ex core-Gremlins. Besides that, a hasty look and shortsighted vision makes you see patterns everywhere.

We are turning in circles Londo. Your main flaw is the idea that TOP declared on you because TOP hates you. That is not the case. A few members of TOP really dislike you. Very few truly hate you. You have to differentiate very carefully between the reason for entry, the way of entry and the choice of targets. They did enter the conflict as part of a 'side' from which they thought it would doing the right thing. (Polar & \m/ Conflict) They did enter how they did to gain a military advantage, because it was clear you would enter sooner or later on the other side *anyway*. (FirstStrike) They did pick you as target because they liked the idea of combining helping their side AND hitting someone they believe is dangerous at the same time. (Effectivity, Emotions) And that paints a complete different picture than the rather stupid "TOP hates us and wants our blood!" scenario. I have worked and discussed with TOP members, General Assembly and Government for many many years. When I say TOP as alliance doesn't hate you, you can take this as a fact. I have no reason to lie, I know both sides of the conflict pretty well and actually learned to respect both sides, each for their own strenghts and flaws. When I say they learned from what happened and it won't happen again, you can take it as a fact. This whole political desaster was an eye-opener for many and clearly showed even the usually silent ones the failure of politics around paranoia. And you can also believe me if I say: any hatred and wishes for vengeance and blood will only make it worse. You just add more blood and hatred to the fire, nothing more. For once YOU have the chance to make it stop, this circle of grudges and cold-war - use it, maybe you won't get it again and whoever leads the next big "coalition" might not be as reasonable as you currently are. Now you can decide if you want the keep the wheel turning or show a greatness they couldn't show. Repeat the concepts of revenge and paranoia which are *proven* to lead to nothing but failure many times now or be among the first to establish a new policy. Now, even while you might still believe it's better to beat down a possible future opponent when you can, keep in mind also the last fact: The more you beat them, the harder they get. And I mean that. From experience with TOP membership of a few years and countless facepalms, head-to-plates, emoragequits and whatnot. Keep beating at TOP and you won't break them, ever. Not ever. You forge them. You will take months over months in damages, you will turn the core of your alliances to wastelands and you won't get a penny reps ever. Not ever. Don't even dream about that. The chance of ever getting a single payment of reparations is straight zero and you have my word for that. They will neither pay anything nor surrender ever. And thats just the pragmatical view of someone who has reached everything Planet Bob can offer and has nothing to lose anyway. So, it's up to you what the history books will say. Many people miss the moment they had the chance to do something truly right, and look back in hindsight, moaning and asking themselves why they didn't realize it when the moment was there. I am just here to make you think if maybe you are in such a moment, and think about your next steps a bit longer.

Well Archon, as said before, I have nothing against the idea that you and your allies want to see TOP "bleed/wiped out/reduced to a size where they are not dangerous any more" etc... - knowing both sides of the history between TOP and MK first hand I can understand it. It makes sense even, from your point of view. Our common history should tell you clearly that I am a friend of MK and I worked quite often on both sides of the global politics to prevent conflict and damage - and did so even in times when MK was most vulnerable, isolated and out of power. Some things your history is built on were on one way or another set in motion or influenced for the good by my work within Q, Citadel and Gre as well, so at least I can expect that you sit back a moment and try to understand why I do what I do. I also read your great announcement regarding the terms, and all the time you speak about how glorious you and your allies are defending yourself and are being beset by enemies etc.. But after all, why do you contradict yourself every second line? You try to sell 'defending' and 'making sure TOP can do no harm in the future' as the same thing, while they are clearly not. They cannot be, because what you do is funnily the same thing TOP did with their attack. It's the expression of paranoia, backed up with force. You are basically repeating their mistake, just covering it up better because with TOP first striking you 'out of the blue' you had the great advantage of 'moral highground'. But be true to yourself: at the moment your main goal is *not* to stop the attacks against C&G any more. That could be easily achieved, let me know that this *is* your goal and I will arrange it. The main goal is to 'make sure TOP cannot be danger any more' - and that is just as preemptive as TOPs strike. You don't know if TOP would come for you in the future again. You don't want to wait to find out. You believe it and you have some more or less good 'evidence'. You want to make sure and because right now you have the chance, you do so with military force. What exactly makes that better than TOPs attack on you to 'make sure C&G won't come in the future' when they thought the moment was good to do so? Nothing. Both are mistakes, and while I couldn't prevent TOP from doing so (I have advised strongly against engaging when I was asked about my opinion by Crymson prior to this war, but as so often, stubbornness and old grudges weighted heavier) - I still can try to prevent you from doing the same mistake and going down on their level. It us up to you to be able to show that you can do what they couldn't, even if that may be a risk for the future. Nothing of value has ever be achieved without risk. And me being on your 'Target List' shall be nothing but a hint that shooting in that direction *maybe* is not the best decision. I am not stupid enough to think my nation could change whatever direction this war takes, with or without me - and you should know that. But the reason why I made my choice how I did it, can show you more than stats of infra, tech and nukes. And if you are willing to see, you might see that in your power lies the chance to break that old circle of grudges. If you want that. But if you don't, stop claiming to be the victim. It doesn't suit a great leader and you don't need it. /Syz

@penkala: If what you just said is true, why was "killing MK" not on the table in the highest Goverment discussions within Citadel (or even Q) over some YEARS? I mean, TOP had more than enough power at these times to entirely and completely burn MK and the few allies they had this time into the ground and leave over nothing but smoldering ruins. Why didn't they? For sure because they are stats-collectors who don't want to fight! TOPs opinion *as alliance* always was: We don't like them (especially don't want them as allies), but in the end we don't care much as long as they leave us and our allies alone. That TOP somehow desperately wants to "come for MK" or destroy you is nothing but a convenient myth, not backed up by any facts, logs on Government level or whatever. Crymsons DoW was poorly written and coloured with a lot of personal emotions because he is indeed one within TOP who really do not like you guys. But the alliance as entity never made any efforts to "come for you" out of the blue. Not to forget that over the last years many Grämlins joined there and are involved in the discussions, without exception with pro-MK attitude (I remember the LM/Archon Duo from the Karma war). That includes me. A voting for war against MK with the reason "we don't like you!" would have never passed, so trying to stretch Crymsons words as if the whole alliance hated you is your only straw to somehow make it look reasonable that TOP wants you dead. However, anyone working with TOP Gov for years would witness otherwise.

Use some logic please. Fact I: - TOP/IRON shot first Conclusion I: - There can't be white peace. Surrender and reparations are *obviously* going to be part of peace terms if they lose this engagement. Fact II: - TOP/IRON have intelligent people in Gov Conclusion II: - They [b]know[/b] about Fact I and Conclusion I So, can everyone stop using this incredibly stupid "white peace" argument? Its a direct insult to everyone who follows the politics of Planet Bob for some years. The reason why I wish this war should end soon is the fact that it started over bullcrap and neither side is even closely fighting for some noble goal. There is no 'right side' or 'good side'. There will be no honor gained in this war. Its complete and utter waste. And some people will sit back, laughing their @#$% off while watching the show, and the involved parties will all regret it some day that they thrown so much out of the window for so little reason and gain.

[quote name='Lenex' date='11 February 2010 - 05:49 PM' timestamp='1265906965' post='2174926'] So let me get this right, TOP and Co. declare a pre-emptive strike on CnG, they soon realize it was a mistake, and now CnG is criticized for not yet offering a quick white peace out for them? What? Uh.. I dont even....... [/quote] Correct, you don't even... ...bothered to read. No one is demanding white peace here. Go try again.

[quote name='Commisar Gaunt' date='11 February 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1265904230' post='2174839'] Don't you have about $750 million on hand to fuel your 18k infra nation [/quote] Its a bit over a billion, well enough for a nation that will have rather small infra bills to pay in a few days and with no plans to rebuild. The day where someone has to teach me about economics still has to come, youngling. Besides that, I never said anything about "white peace" or that C&G does not have the right to strike back. The point is simply that a defender is only a defender as long as there is an attacker willing to keep attacking. In the moment the attacker withdraws (offers surrender), and the defender does not take this offer - he stops being a defender. He is then no longer in defense, but in pursuit. That is why in almost every country there is a law that you can defend yourself against an attack with any means - but you have to stop if the attack is over, else you will be taken to court as well. And that again means, all obligations to "defend" someone or the right to "defend" yourself end at the moment the attacker offers surrender. Leading to the point where all these allies claiming the moral highground "because TOP fired the first shot!!!" simply keep fighting "because they can" and not because they have any obligations. Which is, like earlier mentioned, exactly the same mentality and attitude like in hegemony times. Most will claim otherwise, to justify a prolonged war, but still logic beats their efforts and like always, the blood they spill today without need will come back to them later. But thats the funny part about history. It always repeats itself, and those currently in power never believe it. Besides all that, I never tought "my nation will turn the tides". Stupid is he who even thinks so.

@Arthur: If you want to gain friends, you have to invest trust. Even if someone did you wrong. But the fewest have the greatness to do so, while they see themselves on the "stronger side". Hah, no illusions, your leaders don't want that. They want to see TOP defeated over everything else. And they are willing to sacrifice a lot for that "victory". I don't really care for their reasons, but the point stands: the 'defenders' are only defending as long as they are willing to end the fight if possible. If they are not, they are no 'defenders' any more, but seekers of retribution. They will just come with the standard argument "we are only makeing sure no threat is coming in the future blablablabla and so on." to make their beatdown look reasonable. I have no problem with people wanting to see TOP dead. But at least they shouldn't lie about it and play the "oh see the big guy did me wrong, all help me poor victim and beat the crap out of him!" !@#$%^&*.

[center][img]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/cybernations/images/4/48/Gremlins.jpg[/img][/center] Ladies, Gentlemen, I will make it short. While I absolutely do not support TOP's offensive war declaration for obvious reasons, I nonetheless have chosen a side. Their side. My side. Our side. Now some may ask: "Why fight for them if you don't agree with their war?". Because that is my duty as their friend. Not because I want them to [i]win[/i], no for sure not. They made a mistake, both in using offensive war as 'preemptive' strike (veeeery thin reasoning for war imho because I don't believe C&G would have attacked TOP openly anytime soon) but also in trusting the wrong people and relying on their word. They should have known better. Their experienced leaders should have known better. They have been warned beforehand. But, I also see that this other side, now claiming to be the poor innocent victims, have also done their part for this escalation. TOP and IRON were both played, tricked and betrayed and the enemies of TOP are right now using this chance to beat them down, not in "defense" but as "retribution". I believe TOP and IRON would instantly stop this war, if given the chance. But the "poor innocent defenders" do not want it to stop. They want to make TOP *pay*. Pay for old grudges and historic rivalries. And that is the point where it is my duty as their friend (and also MK's, FARK's and MHA's friend - the people in there should know that) to step in and say: So not. What happens here is wrong. What happens here is no [i]defense[/i] any more. And I am ashamed that my own old alliance, used to the highest moral standards, also fails to realize that this "defense" is nothing but a beatdown, (well) planned and based on betrayal - and taking part in it, without obligation and violating the own charter and oath. That being said, my days in these realms are counted. My age is almost over. But to anyone wanting to see TOP bleed I say: Here I stand. Come and get some. Before I go down, I'll take a whole lot down with me. And yes, MK, FARK, MHA: I would have done the same for you, anytime. I hold no grudge against you, nor my direct opponents in this war. I wish this war come to an end, and soon. But as long as one side does not want that, they will face me on the other side. En Taro Adun. /(DAC)Syzygy [center][img]http://www.abload.de/img/nuclear_explosion6v0u.png[/img][/center]

Thats your interpretation, however, I wonder if now even trying to shut up others in public is your new definition for what Grämlins stands too? You know, value of Freedom of Speech and all that? Long forgotten it seems, like the aim for peaceful solutions. Just to be clear, you guys have not the slightest idea what real *contribution* means. Steel, Hell, Bob, Ejay, myself and a lot of others know because we really created new standards out of nothing. You guys 'took over' what we created over the years. Not only the reputation, not only the foreign relations. You took place in our seats, given to you in the trust you would honour the path that lies behind us and the vision in front of us. It was time to let a new generation make their own steps, but rest assured: seeing that you turn *our* alliance into the next mindless 'we follow no matter what' mediocrity bunch makes us sick. And I don't speak for myself alone here. Enough people have left because the internal decadence was too much to bear, because they just could not stand it any more. You inherited a legend, but instead of continuing to lead by example, to change the world with unique stances and spearheading changes, you keep ruining what was given to you. Maybe some day you will understand that "no matter what" means by definition a surrender of the mind. That your pathos of "we roll together because Härmlins is one!!!" soils the entire idea behind it. That this stupid "unconditional support" was what we fought against for years in all the discussions with TOP. To realize that a true friend does *NOT* support the other 'no matter what' but helps him to make better decisions and protects him from too harsh consequences of mistakes. You guys ride to no ones 'defense' right now. You involved yourselves 'because you can'. Because you wanted to. And all that after just a few weeks have passed since you claimed (way too late) to go for an "paperless FA" - what is left from that paperless FA if your only excuse to enter this conflict is the last sheet of paper you maintained? Thats making your own attempt to go a new way just clownery. Yes, you are right with one point: I and most others left quite some time ago. Partly because we were tired, partly because we were frustrated, partly because we just wanted to give new people the chance to continue this unique project on Planet Bob. But now we are not tired any more and our frustration became anger. And we have every right to say clearly what we think about how you use what was given to you. YOU should sit back and rethink your agenda. This alone makes all your hollow words about "we must go where MHA goes!" void. The charter tops every other Document *by definition* and it clearly says: YOU. ARE. INDEPENDENT. You should read at least the core document of the alliance you are commanding. Besides this, you are also a PEACEFUL alliance, and declarations of war are allowed only for a very few reasons: Now which treaty Partner of yours was attacked? Who did spy on you? Who used your AA? What clear and present threat to the security of the Grämlins was immidiate? Last but not least, do the Härmlin Accords in V.d. and V.e. explicitly allow to wage war 'on your own' for each Härmlin, so in no way a joint entry (which violates the Charter anyway since neither Gre nor a Treaty partner of Gre was in danger) was a 'must'. Besides this, assistance must be given only to "besieged" Härmlins and the commitment in war and peace is limited to "defence" of each other. So unless you explain how MHA is currently under siege or your commitment to their war is somehow a 'defence' of MHA, you simply created an epic fail here. Almost as fail as TOPs DoW. Now YOU can go go sit down, learning about your own obligations and intentions when participating in this crap. Shame on you!