UOKMB war with GOONS

[xoindotnler]

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1283952947' post='2446536']
Swansfield shouldn't really be taken seriously, he was in \m/ just the other week.
[/quote]
So he is a expert in backpedeling, now that is some great news for GOONS .

[nutkase]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1283962122' post='2446624']
Yes, people need to learn what type of situations warrant that kind of attention and what situations do not.



The sad thing is, your break down is 100% correct. The problem is not that your correct, but that the mere existence of a few categorical factors can get everyone all riled up in the first place. Nothing extreme happened here. The faux outcry based around political polarization over things like this because it simply involves GOONS, involves tech raiding, and involves a nuke (as you correctly point out) leaves a distasteful stench in the nose of any of us who care about upholding notions of justice and serves to trivialize any future issue where such a response may actually be warranted.

Plus, it's annoying.
[/quote]


Come on Impero, I would of called out any alliance in GOONS position. Tech raiding has always had a negative response to it in some way or manner so you cannot justify your response. Also nuking a raided nation in particular one not carrying nukes themselves should always be seen as a vile and cowardice act. Also you talk of justice, where was the justice on the behalf of the raided nation?

Tech raiding alliances spout they should not have to conform to others when it comes to raiding, yet these alliances conform nations to accept peace on their terms when they are victims of aggression and acts of being subjected to nuclear war. Where is the justice in that?

[mattski133]

Let me see if I am gripping this right.

UOKMB seems to have taken the view that GOONS initiated an act of war against them two months ago. They admittedly preferred a war of vengeance to seeking reps or an apology or both, which is now going exactly as GOONS and UOKMB have claimed to have wanted it to go, with GOONS and a handful of individual nations of their allies blasting UOKMB into oblivion (the expected blaze of glory) and UOKMB getting in their shots accordingly.

The nuclear wash is in effect and when it's all over UOKMB gets rolled and GOONS gets nuked a little.

I am personally struggling with the people who seem to want more blood than that, these so called "moralists". The people who look the most ridiculous here, in my opinion. The people saying "go get'em UOKMB cause as much damage as you can as you're taken out, we think you're totally right and we'd help you but we're not 100% sure we're THAT ready to stand up for what we so vehemently believe in. The day is coming when we will though!". I'm not going to go with the old "do something" cliche, but good lord crap or get off the pot there's a line forming.

[nutkase]

[quote]UOKMB seems to have taken the view that GOONS initiated an act of war against them two months ago.[/quote]

Well GOONS did, attacking a member of a AA is a act of war in anyones book. Especially when they continue on to nuke them.

[quote]They admittedly preferred a war of vengeance to seeking reps or an apology or both, which is now going exactly as GOONS and UOKMB have claimed to have wanted it to go, with GOONS and a handful of individual nations of their allies blasting UOKMB into oblivion (the expected blaze of glory) and UOKMB getting in their shots accordingly. [/quote]

They had every right to go to war against GOONS rather then seek reps or a apology.


[quote]The people who look the most ridiculous here, in my opinion.[/quote]

How so?

[quote]I'm not going to go with the old "do something" cliche[/quote]

Who are you....YOU CANNOT BE A GOONS MEMBER!!

Edited September 8, 2010 by nutkase

[eyriq]

Something should be said for the irrationality of GOONS policy regarding raiding and the definition of an alliance. Back in July Sardonic asked the question about accepting nations at war, referring to a tech raid that had failed, escalated into a curbstomp, and attracted other alliances to get involved. At question ultimately was whether their constructs for defining tech raiding and alliances were correct, as determined by their validity in predicting behavior. Just as in July we again have an issue of GOONS definition of a tech raid and an alliance leading to the curb stomping of a group. Like I said in Xiphosis blog about morality; one way or another, we all live by the golden rule, and when one sows one's own destruction through an irrational code, or in other words an immoral code, one has no one to blame but oneself. When this neurotic and irrational behavior threatens the community then it does behoove an enlightened community to act towards elevating rational thought.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='_GunneR_' timestamp='1283955036' post='2446560']
Your objective is failure to accomplish anything?
[/quote]
I thought their objective was to be utterly destroyed, but lob a couple nukes in the process and claim victory. It's the old "You beat me up, but I landed a single punch so that's a victory in my book!" line of reasoning. They went to the NSO school of logic for that one.

I wonder what school they went to to learn warfare though.

[Haquertal]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1283968444' post='2446690']
I wonder what school they went to to learn warfare though.
[/quote]

One where max deploy doesn't mean "up to the Anarchy limit".

[JT Jag]

Our policy of tech raiding is hardly irrational. The other way around, in fact: We have one of the highest conglomerations of low to mid NS nations of any alliance on digiterra, and raiding greatly expedites our growth.

In a few months, when our average strength is closer to the mid-tier and we're vying for a sanction, expect our raiding activity to dry up significantly... as, one, there are less targets at that range, and two, we won't need it as much.

That said, I understand if you have a moral objection about it, so let's agree to disagree.

[thekirbyfake]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1283967038' post='2446679']
Let me see if I am gripping this right.

UOKMB seems to have taken the view that GOONS initiated an act of war against them two months ago. They admittedly preferred a war of vengeance to seeking reps or an apology or both, which is now going exactly as GOONS and UOKMB have claimed to have wanted it to go, with GOONS and a handful of individual nations of their allies blasting UOKMB into oblivion (the expected blaze of glory) and UOKMB getting in their shots accordingly.

The nuclear wash is in effect and when it's all over UOKMB gets rolled and GOONS gets nuked a little.

I am personally struggling with the people who seem to want more blood than that, these so called "moralists". The people who look the most ridiculous here, in my opinion. The people saying "go get'em UOKMB cause as much damage as you can as you're taken out, we think you're totally right and we'd help you but we're not 100% sure we're THAT ready to stand up for what we so vehemently believe in. The day is coming when we will though!". I'm not going to go with the old "do something" cliche, but good lord crap or get off the pot there's a line forming.
[/quote]
You know what? This man has it spot on. I'm going to come clean here a bit.

I was getting bored on Planet Bob. I'd been involved in the last big war (as part of Iunctus) and it was fun. Lost half my strength in a week. Built it back up again. Paid bills, collected tax, repeat ad nauseum.

I asked around if there were any wars going to happen soon and the response was pretty weak to say the least. Choices: go out with a whimper or a bang.

I told my old friends from CTF that I was going to chose the second option and lo and behold they fancied doing it too. But who to target?

Well I came onto the forums and saw a lot of people moaning about the big bad Goons. A little further digging and it seemed they were stomping everywhere and raiding with impunity. Good a target as any I suppose. They're up for a fight at least. And maybe, just maybe, some of the rulers who were constantly complaining about Goons would might see this as a catalyst to grow some balls and make a stand.

I didn't have anything against raiders personally. It's all part of the mechanics on Planet Bob. When you do a ground attack you destroy some things and steal some things (duh). And anyway if I felt that strongly about people starting wars then I wouldn't be planning on going rogue. There, I said it, the R word.

Well it seems I picked the right alliance because they actually want a fight and they've given us one (the ones who have bothered to rebuy troops at least). I hoped my DoW would be rousing and the evidence of a nuke raid (which is real btw, nothing faked) would get people involved and off the forums into a proper fight.

Whereas, as Mattski correctly points out, nobody is doing anything but standing back and patting us on the back. Whilst sat in their cars. With the engine running ready for a quick getaway. One even went into peace mode for goodness sake.

Earlier today I was offered some foreign aid. I left it pending and sent an IGM asking if he understood the implications of what he was doing. It seems he did because he withdrew it...

Compare that to the PMs I've had from smaller Goons who are literally begging to be on the next round of attacks. Well don't worry, some of us do have the warchests to keep this going for sometime. Your time will come.

o7

Edited September 8, 2010 by thekirbyfake

[VeritasK]

Only problem I personally have with this war is the GRL.


Otherwise, o/ UOKMB&GOONS

[Beefspari]

[quote name='thekirbyfake' timestamp='1283972203' post='2446737']
Well I came onto the forums and saw a lot of people moaning about the big bad Goons. A little further digging and it seemed they were stomping everywhere and raiding with impunity. Good a target as any I suppose. They're up for a fight at least. And maybe, just maybe, some of the rulers who were constantly complaining about Goons would might see this as a catalyst to grow some balls and make a stand.

Well it seems I picked the right alliance because they actually want a fight and they've given us one (the ones who have bothered to rebuy troops at least). I hoped my DoW would be rousing and the evidence of a nuke raid (which is real btw, nothing faked) would get people involved and off the forums into a proper fight.

Whereas, as Mattski correctly points out, nobody is doing anything but standing back and patting us on the back. Whilst sat in their cars. With the engine running ready for a quick getaway. One even went into peace mode for goodness sake.[/quote]
You did your homework far enough to notice that there's a lot of anti-GOONS hate. Most of it's blind though; no matter what the issue at hand (even if there wasn't one) people will speak up and talk about how terrible we are. Fortunately we have a ring of allies who understand us, and we're always welcoming new friends to the pile of hugs and kisses. VE for instance practically loathed us until they got to know us, and now they're some of our bestest buddies. o7 VE

I'm not entirely sure you did your homework far enough to know that GOONS is happy to fight with you. Your original DoE/DoW carried the tone that we would run away or hide from war, when really this is the most active we've been in months. Until the last few days our activity level has been steadily decreasing and most conversations revolving around the fact that there's nothing going on and someone should start a war. Now most of the people are fighting over who should get nuked next and if there will be enough war slots to go around.

The part I fear you didn't do enough research on is the fact that yes, nobody else is going to chip in. There's a ton of anti-GOONS hate, but that's as far as it goes. There are dozens of people who are willing to stand up and claim we're immoral and evil, and that our uppence will come. But then they sit back down and wait for someone else to do it. It was probably worth a shot trying to get something started -- in fact we were hoping someone else would bandwagon your crusade too -- but yeah, it's not happening. If you decide to stick around, get used to that.

[quote name='thekirbyfake' timestamp='1283972203' post='2446737']
Earlier today I was offered some foreign aid. I left it pending and sent an IGM asking if he understood the implications of what he was doing. It seems he did because he withdrew it...
[/quote]
That's my doing, the guy who offered it is an ally of an ally. Would've been awkward to have to negotiate that.

[Shaazzam]

[quote name='eyriq' timestamp='1283968290' post='2446688']
Something should be said for the irrationality of GOONS policy regarding raiding and the definition of an alliance. Back in July Sardonic asked the question about accepting nations at war, referring to a tech raid that had failed, escalated into a curbstomp, and attracted other alliances to get involved. At question ultimately was whether their constructs for defining tech raiding and alliances were correct, as determined by their validity in predicting behavior. Just as in July we again have an issue of GOONS definition of a tech raid and an alliance leading to the curb stomping of a group. Like I said in Xiphosis blog about morality; one way or another, we all live by the golden rule, and when one sows one's own destruction through an irrational code, or in other words an immoral code, one has no one to blame but oneself. When this neurotic and irrational behavior threatens the community then it does behoove an enlightened community to act towards elevating rational thought.
[/quote]
How enlightened is the community when irrational behavior rules the day?

[HeroofTime55]

You know, I've been trying to hold my reservations on GOONS (Even if everyone incorrectly assumes I've always hated them), but, you know, there's just something outright wrong about sanctioning and first-strike nuking when a tech raid goes sour. I must strongly condemn the actions of GOONS in this war and the precedents they seek to set.

The nuking, eh, it's forgivable considering UOKMB's stated intent, but sanctions in what is without a doubt an alliance war, are uncalled for, and run counter to established precedent.

Edited September 8, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[eyriq]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1283972119' post='2446734']
Our policy of tech raiding is hardly irrational. The other way around, in fact: We have one of the highest conglomerations of low to mid NS nations of any alliance on digiterra, and raiding greatly expedites our growth.

In a few months, when our average strength is closer to the mid-tier and we're vying for a sanction, expect our raiding activity to dry up significantly... as, one, there are less targets at that range, and two, we won't need it as much.

That said, I understand if you have a moral objection about it, so let's agree to disagree.
[/quote]

More-so referring to the use of nukes and raiding groups that are aligned via an AA tag. Both technical aspects of your policy that sacrifice rationality for.... something goonish I'm sure

[lebubu]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1283973250' post='2446760']
I must strongly condemn the actions of GOONS in this war and the precedents they seek to set.
[/quote]

Good for you. By the way, MK first strike nuked in raids before new GOONS were even founded.

e: fixed quote

Edited September 8, 2010 by lebubu

[Alterego]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1283967038' post='2446679']
The nuclear wash is in effect and when it's all over UOKMB gets rolled and GOONS gets nuked a little.
[/quote]
It also exposes your weaknessess & soft underbelly to the wolves of the world. How you dealt with this issue in particular your need of sanctions and use of allies to assist you in the fight (regardless how you try to spin it) against a mere [u]eight[/u] nations shows you up as a paper tiger.

Edited September 8, 2010 by Alterego

[Diogenes]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1283973250' post='2446760']
You know, I've been trying to hold my reservations on GOONS (Even if everyone incorrectly assumes I've always hated them), but, you know, there's just something outright wrong about sanctioning and first-strike nuking when a tech raid goes sour. I must strongly condemn the actions of GOONS in this war and the precedents they seek to set.

The nuking, eh, it's forgivable considering UOKMB's stated intent, but sanctions in what is without a doubt an alliance war, are uncalled for, and run counter to established precedent.
[/quote]


Why can seemingly no one comprehend that this was not a 'raid gone sour'?

[Beefspari]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1283973250' post='2446760']
You know, I've been trying to hold my reservations on GOONS (Even if everyone incorrectly assumes I've always hated them), but, you know, there's just something outright wrong about sanctioning and first-strike nuking when a tech raid goes sour. I must strongly condemn the actions of GOONS in this war and the precedents they seek to set.

The nuking, eh, it's forgivable considering UOKMB's stated intent, but sanctions in what is without a doubt an alliance war, are uncalled for, and run counter to established precedent.
[/quote]
You should probably read the post like four above yours where kirby admits that they don't care about raids and decided on us out of boredom and because we were easy targets (not militarily but in terms of there being a lot of people who don't like us).

[Heinlander]

[quote name='Quiziotle' timestamp='1283974259' post='2446781']
Why can seemingly no one comprehend that this was not a 'raid gone sour'?
[/quote]I think he was referring to the original incident.

Which wasn't a raid gone sour to begin with. The reality is far more hilarious.

[trance addict]

[quote name='Heinlander' timestamp='1283868541' post='2445260']
[b]Its mechanically impossible for us to cover all your defensive slots[/b]. You're the ones with the bad math. If you wanted to do the most damage with your mighty armies you should have aimed better. Instead you're getting the full attention of our upper ranks and the excess is being greedily scooped up by MK, Umbrella and everyone else. By the time you reach our sweet spot your warchests will be depleted and your nukes will be used up. All sound and fury, signifying nothing.
[/quote]


False, to the point highlighted in the quotes.

I believe there to be 8 UOKMB members, which would total 24 defensive war slots.

UOKMB had a nation strength range between 23 and 43K. Within GOONS between the NS range of 24.5K and 53K there are 24 GOONs nations. All employing 1 offensive war slot, they could completely cover all of UOKMB's war slots. Just sayin'

[JT Jag]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1283973700' post='2446767']
It also exposes your weaknessess & soft underbelly to the wolves of the world. How you dealt with this issue in particular your need of sanctions and use of allies to assist you in the fight (regardless how you try to spin it) against a mere [u]eight[/u] nations shows you up as a paper tiger.
[/quote]I agree with you, Alterego! Fights should be purely one-on-one honour duels. Let's everyone cancel all our treaties, decommission our wonders, improvements, planes, spies, cruise missiles, and cowardly nuclear arsenals above all and HAVE AT IT!

[Alterego]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1283975099' post='2446800']
I agree with you, Alterego! Fights should be purely one-on-one honour duels. Let's everyone cancel all our treaties, decommission our wonders, improvements, planes, spies, cruise missiles, and cowardly nuclear arsenals above all and HAVE AT IT!
[/quote]
You are a 300 man 4m NS alliance fighting a 8 man 250k alliance. Seriously, where is your pride in your alliances abilities.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1283973542' post='2446764']
Good for you. By the way, MK first strike nuked in raids before new GOONS were even founded.

e: fixed quote
[/quote]Right, you 'fixed' the quote by removing the part where I state the nuking is forgivable given UOKMB's stated intent. Gosh darn, you almost made the mistake of providing context that wouldn't make me look so bad! Thank admin you went back and fixed it!

As for first striking in raids where the target doesn't reveal that he's been planning on attacking you to cause as much damage as he can, yeah, don't support that either. Way too much potential for extortion to occur, and it's also a great way to upset independent rulers to the point where their emotions, through some unknown process, cause their nations to mysteriously vanish from the face of the planet, which has been a growing and disturbing problem in the world.

I understand the benefits of tech raiding, and I allow it in my own alliance. But there is no reason to first-strike nuke a helpless target, except as an easy-out if you don't know how to fight and they manage to turn the tables on you (Which you would fully deserve in that case for being an incompetent fighter, take your licks like a man), or to compensate for smaller-than-average components of your body, or both. Or I guess if they don't pay the extortion fee, but I'm going to assume MK isn't dumb enough to do that.

Anyway, this is a diversion from the issue, which I see as the sanctions placed by GOONS during an alliance war starting a dangerous precedent could translate to more 'mainstream' wars. I'm not some sort of anti-tech raiding moralist, I'm not against first striking someone who seeks to build themselves up to hurt you (UOKMB was pretty dumb for revealing their goal, they could have gotten a huge PR victory if they kept that bit a secret). I'm against sanctioning an alliance through the course of an alliance war.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1283975614' post='2446813']
You are a 300 man 4m NS alliance fighting a 8 man 250k alliance. Seriously, where is your pride in your alliances abilities.
[/quote]
We take pride in the fact that many of our friends and allies were eager to join in the fight. Which one do you think GOONS is more likely to care about? The random whiners who think using the tools available to you in a fight is "cheating" or "dishonorable," or what our allies would say if we told them they can't join in?

In fact let's see how that scenario would unfold.

iFOK: GOONS! I see you're enjoying a fun war! I'm in range. Do you have some spare slots for me? Can I join in please?
GOONS: No. We have a sense of pride in our alliance abilities. We sign treaties to gain allies but do not utilize them, because doing so would be dishonorable.

And then iFOK says...

[kriekfreak]

Sense of pride is not in my vocabulary, I'll see you on the battlefield