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Declaration from Vox Populi


Schattenmann

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[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1345307866' post='3023157']
You are wrong about the "old days". If "peace was genuine" why was FAN attacked again? Why was MK blacklisted for a year after the Unjust war? My history of this is shaky because I wasn't around, but AFAIK GW3 was largely a repeat of GW2. Legion and GATO were also hit again too.
[/quote]

You had a chance to dismiss what I said about DH peace offers being a lie. Instead you tried to divert attention by saying NPO was more evil than DH. Regardless what NPO did or didnt do they were told more than once they had a clean slate by DH. Now they seem to once again have to defend themselves from you guys wile you rake up the most ancient of history that was repaid in full and then some because you need to divert attention away from your present day crimes.

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[quote name='Jonathan Brookbank' timestamp='1345332093' post='3023289']
While you may not personally engage in OOC attacks, you know as well as I do that this is a blatant lie, potato.
[/quote]

I remember the stormsend and co ooc and they were just the tip of the DH ooc stuff

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[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1345347132' post='3023367']
You had a chance to dismiss what I said about DH peace offers being a lie. Instead you tried to divert attention by saying NPO was more evil than DH.[/quote]
You were the one who said that "peace was genuine" in the old days. It's not diverting attention to focus on a point you made.

[quote]Regardless what NPO did or didnt do they were told more than once they had a clean slate by DH. Now they seem to once again have to defend themselves from you guys wile you rake up the most ancient of history that was repaid in full and then some because you need to divert attention away from your present day crimes.
[/quote]
And by that you mean one or two members of Umbrella. For MK's part, and I can say this as MK government, we don't care about NPO's "past crimes" and have no intention of going after them.

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[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1345323973' post='3023241']
The only people I ever see compare the current powers that be to NPO are the DH posters who use the "at least we're not as bad as NPO" argument. So I/m not sure why you would complain about this.
[/quote]
You're clearly not paying attention and haven't ever read an Alterego post.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1345329255' post='3023273']
Imagine that! You guys keep attacking people for no reason, demanding defensive reps, OOC attacking rulers, spying on forums, tech-raiding entire alliances, and we keep pointing out what !@#$heads you are! Who'da thunk it? But, in point of fact, while most moved to the Chicken-Little-esque "neo-Heg" rhetoric almost before Karma was even over, you'll do well to remember that I personally waited until the actions justified the response: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97713[/quote]
My point was about the staleness of "old hegemony" and "new hegemony" comparisons, which you failed to address by moving the goalposts.

I was arguing against those stale comparisons, not against criticisms of MK in general (I'd obviously argue against those, but on different grounds). My whole point has been that if people want to criticize MK, it should be on the merits of our actions, not on stale equivocations to Karma era stuff.

[quote]You've had three years to make your time worth it. In that time, you've tried philosophies ranging from "Creative Annihilation[sup]"[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=93789"]1[/url][/sup] to "Everything must die" and blamed everyone from me personally[sup][url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?app=blog&module=display&section=blog&blogid=777&showentry=3460"]2[/url][/sup] to moralists in general [sup][url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97781"]3[/url], [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=101229"]4[/url][/sup] for your failures of your era.

Vox Populi laid out and advocated the path to the most equitable, most free, most dynamic, and [OOC]most fun[/OOC] future. But we refused to force anything upon anyone. Instead, you chose to abandon politics and treat Digiterra as little more than the Thunderdome, tying up as much NS as you could regardless of sustainability in order to keep NPO in a cage and attacking what few opportunistic targets were left.

You've had your chance, people are tired of you. You've given SF what they wanted, you've given the Germanic alliances what they wanted, you've given Pacifica what she wanted--you're running out of people to play against each other, and you've burned a lot of bridges jumping from one girlfriend to the next. So, rail against me, rail against history, rail against my rhetorial style now that I'm not on your side anymore. Bleat your protests, pull the treaty chains as hard as you can, do whatever you want while you can, because you're not long for this world.

We're on the cusp of a new age once more, and Vox alumni, Cult of Justitia, The Combine, AlterEgo, and many more will be here advocating the best way forward when it comes.
[/quote]
Many people argued for many things in the Karma era. Not every in Vox or on Vox's side agreed with your vision of the the world.

As for slowly building up a cadre of enemies or whatever, members of our "hegemony" have befriended plenty of former enemies. TLR and GATO with NPO. MK with TOP. Umbrella and NG with IRON.

You seem to think "politics" is about making yourself relatively isolationist and only treatying a small handful of people. While I'd certainly agree that there are too many treaties out there, that's something that's been going on since before Karma and is perpetrated by most alliances. And it hasn't prevented wars, just resulted in a lot of treaty partners on opposite sides. To lay that at MK or our general sphere's feet is ridiculous.

Oh and NPO stopped being "caged" and the super-grievances coalition broke up before the major war before last. Get with the times.

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[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1345307866' post='3023157']
You are wrong about the "old days". If "peace was genuine" why was FAN attacked again? Why was MK blacklisted for a year after the Unjust war? My history of this is shaky because I wasn't around, but AFAIK GW3 was largely a repeat of GW2. Legion and GATO were also hit again too.
[/quote]
Legion was hit again? Legion did not participate in Great War II.

If your history is shaky, and you weren't around, you probably shouldn't comment.

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[quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1345356315' post='3023412']
Legion was hit again? Legion did not participate in Great War II.

If your history is shaky, and you weren't around, you probably shouldn't comment.
[/quote]
I'm referring to the attacks on Legion after GW3, looking at the wiki that means the Dove War and then the viceroy later after that.

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[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1345351868' post='3023394']
My point was about the staleness of "old hegemony" and "new hegemony" comparisons, which you failed to address by moving the goalposts.

I was arguing against those stale comparisons, not against criticisms of MK in general (I'd obviously argue against those, but on different grounds). My whole point has been that if people want to criticize MK, it should be on the merits of our actions, not on stale equivocations to Karma era stuff.
[/quote]

You might want to read that post again. I mean really [i]read[/i] it. The way I read it, it came out like this:

1. Schattenmann lists the various foul behaviors of MK
2. Azaghul says "My point was about how if you want to attack MK, attack based on MK's merits, not its merits comparative to NPO's"

The thing about it is, he did.

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[quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1345330796' post='3023283']
He's wrong - why?

You can't just call someone wrong and not back it up with anything.
[/quote]

You can if the accusations are without evidence.

As I watch both sides to this argument, words continue to fail me. My own 'side' are politically incompetent braggards, relishing in their dated victories of times long gone and the alternative are a bunch of high and mighty morally superior rebels, still bemoaning the hijacking of their glorious revolution, you all live in the past, too afraid to look to the future so the world keeps turning and everything stays exactly the same, this new era which Schatt claims is coming will be as boring and fraught with unimaginative tinpot dictators just like our hegemony was and the one before it.

You are all the worst.

Edited by Johnny Apocalypse
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[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1345387984' post='3023472']
You might want to read that post again. I mean really [i]read[/i] it. The way I read it, it came out like this:

1. Schattenmann lists the various foul behaviors of MK
2. Azaghul says "My point was about how if you want to attack MK, attack based on MK's merits, not its merits comparative to NPO's"

The thing about it is, he did.
[/quote]
It's actually more like this:
1) I point out how stupid comparing the "new hegemony" compare to the "old hegemony" is.
2) Schattenmann accuses me of "starting" the conversation about how the "new hegemony" compares to the old hegemony.
3) I point out that he was the one that started that conversation with this thread by invoking the imagery of Karma and Vox.
4) He changes the subject by going into a generic "MK is bad" post.
5) I call him out for changing the subject.

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[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1345393220' post='3023487']
4) He changes the subject by going into a generic "MK is bad" post.
[/quote]

You said yourself you'd gladly debate anyone who has issues with MK and doesn't just compare them to the NPO "hegemony." Schattenmann has done this. You asked for that "change of subject" and now you're complaining that he did so? In my opinion it'd be easier and more productive if you took him up on his offer.

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[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1345393220' post='3023487']
It's actually more like this:
1) I point out how stupid comparing the "new hegemony" compare to the "old hegemony" is.
2) Schattenmann accuses me of "starting" the conversation about how the "new hegemony" compares to the old hegemony.
3) I point out that he was the one that started that conversation with this thread by invoking the imagery of Karma and Vox.
4) He changes the subject by going into a generic "MK is bad" post.
5) I call him out for changing the subject.
[/quote]
Azaghul, Azaghul. What are we going to do with you?

Your timeline should rather be labeled 4-8, because you left out 1-3:
1. Schattenmann opens a thread outlining the problems of the past two eras
2. Azaghul replies that post-Karma has not been as bad as pre-Karma, thus comparing the "new hegemony" to the "old hegemony"
3. Brehon, Schattenmann, and Alterego rip "new Heg" a new one
4. [Your 1] Mollywhopped, Azaghul points out how stupid comparing the "new hegemony" compare to the "old hegemony" is.

Two hegemonies were criticized in my OP, only one takes issue with this thread. Comme c'est étrange!

Because your eyes glazed over and rolled back in a reactionary haze before you got past the 3rd paragraph, I'll bring renewed focus to the point of the thread, which most people got:
[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1344891824' post='3021650']
In the past, too many have forgotten that the abuses of power are not native to specific alliances, rather, they are native to power itself. The names do not matter. Pacifica is not the problem, [b]Mushroom Kingdom is not the problem[/b], GOD is not the problem. The system is the problem, the pursuit of power for power's sake is the problem. We must all commit again to the vision of Vox Populi, for which so many thousands gave everything, I invoke the parting words of Vox:


War is over, now the time of reflection comes again.

That is our charge, my charge, and my charge to you. I admonish you each, you leaders, you electorates, we can break the beat of history. The Viridian Entente has taken a step. Pacifica is taking steps. Duckroll has stood firm during this last war.

Reflect. Find the purpose of your alliance. Define it. Find your identity. Become firm in a commitment to stand by the ideals of your alliance, not to act without reflection. Cancel the treaty which makes no sense. Leave the alliance whose actions do not represent you.

This is our new struggle as we face the future, this is our charge, and our burden. The prize of victory in this battle is what we all say we want: A dynamic world. A world with more freedom. A world with more war, but less persecution. A world in which we all share in the [i]experience[/i] of defeat and glory. Where being a Legionnaire, being a Pacifican, being an ODNista, being a Viridian [b]means [/b]something.
[/quote]

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1345400760' post='3023510']
You said yourself you'd gladly debate anyone who has issues with MK and doesn't just compare them to the NPO "hegemony." Schattenmann has done this. You asked for that "change of subject" and now you're complaining that he did so? In my opinion it'd be easier and more productive if you took him up on his offer.
[/quote]
He doesn't dare.

The path forward we advocate means everything they've said they want for 3 years, but requires the only thing they cannot do: let go of the reigns. So, they'd rather just talk about how bad NPO was, then say it's dumb to talk about how bad NPO was, then post a cute play-by-play of the thread.

Edited by Schattenmann
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[quote name='Amossio' timestamp='1345195548' post='3022768']
Hahahaha Xiphosis assassinated himself, during the whole debacle with DT-LoSS, and that was just one of the bullets he put in the chamber. He faded into the background after he got what was coming to him, which now I'm finally satisfied and have no grudges towards CSN and GOD etc. That's my own grudges though not based on my current alliances perception but the perception based on what was acted against my alliance/allies at the time. He not only pissed LoSS off but anyone around them by the way they acted during that conflict, which thankfully Mj later dealt a lovely blow to SF. Even today I highly doubt anyone who were friendly with LoSS at the time thinks well of xiphosis or his alliance.
[/quote]

Actually, I was really good friends with LoSS and I still like Xiph. Mainly because I realize he didn't have as much to do with the issue. Of course stating that is contrary to the !@#$%^&* those in power feed us all, but I don't care.

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[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1345422970' post='3023573']
Actually, I was really good friends with LoSS and I still like Xiph. Mainly because I realize he didn't have as much to do with the issue. Of course stating that is contrary to the !@#$%^&* those in power feed us all, but I don't care.
[/quote]

I'm so sick of these terrible posts filled with the truth.

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[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1345422970' post='3023573']
Actually, I was really good friends with LoSS and I still like Xiph. Mainly because I realize he didn't have as much to do with the issue. Of course stating that is contrary to the !@#$%^&* those in power feed us all, but I don't care.
[/quote]
He didn't have nothing to do with the issue, really, what planet are you living on or are you in self denial. But it's not like I give a !@#$ nowadays anyway.

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[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1345393220' post='3023487']
It's actually more like this:
1) I point out how stupid comparing the "new hegemony" compare to the "old hegemony" is.
[/quote]

Every single time someone points out something bad you do and is critical of one of your actions or policies you or someone like you immediately compare yourself to the old hegemony. You have been dong this since the reps were demanded from NPO in the karma war. When you made this demand people queried the [i]"end of draconian reps"[/i] comment. The response was [i]"draconian in proportion"[/i] when compared to previous reps demanded. So since the Karma war and continuing to this thread you have consistently made the comparison between your own actions to those of the previous hegemony using their crimes as a yardstick for what you thought you could get away with. Instead of realising what you were doing was criminal you seem to have come to believe its only a crime if you equal or exceed some or all of their crimes. Crime is crime is crime.

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[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1345400760' post='3023510']
You said yourself you'd gladly debate anyone who has issues with MK and doesn't just compare them to the NPO "hegemony." Schattenmann has done this. You asked for that "change of subject" and now you're complaining that he did so? In my opinion it'd be easier and more productive if you took him up on his offer.
[/quote]
There's a difference between legitimately dropping a bad argument and avoiding accountability for a bad argument. Guess which one Schatt is doing.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1345403172' post='3023514']
Azaghul, Azaghul. What are we going to do with you?

Your timeline should rather be labeled 4-8, because you left out 1-3:
1. Schattenmann opens a thread outlining the problems of the past two eras
2. Azaghul replies that post-Karma has not been as bad as pre-Karma, thus comparing the "new hegemony" to the "old hegemony"
3. Brehon, Schattenmann, and Alterego rip "new Heg" a new one
4. [Your 1] Mollywhopped, Azaghul points out how stupid comparing the "new hegemony" compare to the "old hegemony" is.

Two hegemonies were criticized in my OP, only one takes issue with this thread. Comme c'est étrange!

Because your eyes glazed over and rolled back in a reactionary haze before you got past the 3rd paragraph, I'll bring renewed focus to the point of the thread, which most people got:[/quote]
"Outlining the problems of the last two era's" is to compare them, as you have been doing. Only one "takes issue" with the comparison because the other realizes that trying to defend it is a lost cause and it's ancient history anyway.

You may say that "MK is not the problem" but you are saying that having any kind of powerful group (I'll give you credit for not just saying "MK is all powerful!" but looking at the group) is the problem. It's still a blatant attempt to try to convince people to not tie themselves into our sphere because of "abuses". And then you give credit to others (NPO) even though they are doing what you criticize, signing treaties all over the map including into C&G which is tied to us.

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1345458860' post='3023702']
Every single time someone points out something bad you do and is critical of one of your actions or policies you or someone like you immediately compare yourself to the old hegemony. You have been dong this since the reps were demanded from NPO in the karma war. When you made this demand people queried the [i]"end of draconian reps"[/i] comment. The response was [i]"draconian in proportion"[/i] when compared to previous reps demanded. So since the Karma war and continuing to this thread you have consistently made the comparison between your own actions to those of the previous hegemony using their crimes as a yardstick for what you thought you could get away with. Instead of realising what you were doing was criminal you seem to have come to believe its only a crime if you equal or exceed some or all of their crimes. Crime is crime is crime.
[/quote]
Again it's been in response to people like you making the comparison.

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[quote name='Amossio' timestamp='1345455765' post='3023696']
He didn't have nothing to do with the issue, really, what planet are you living on or are you in self denial. But it's not like I give a !@#$ nowadays anyway.
[/quote]

Do you have anything to back this up? Or is this just conjecture? I'm certainly open to new evidence. However, I had extremely good friends trapped on both sides of the issue that I talked to everyday. I'll take their word for it instead of believing whatever trash is spewed from those with an interest in seeing Xiph maligned.

Edited by Omniscient1
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[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1345514328' post='3023886']
Do you have anything to back this up? Or is this just conjecture? I'm certainly open to new evidence. However, I had extremely good friends trapped on both sides of the issue that I talked to everyday. I'll take their word for it instead of believing whatever trash is spewed from those with an interest in seeing Xiph maligned.
[/quote]

I highly doubt those friends in LoSS would have told you anything of great importance at the time, Maybe you have a few friends in LoSS but I do remember having a laugh a couple of times at your expense in LoSS chan. It's not so much as nobody cares about who you are, but not many people take your word seriously or regard you with any importance, afterall none knows where you gona end up next after a 3 week spell somewhere. As for me having a interest in seeing Xiphosis maligned, I really don't care about xiph, but to play him as a innocent by stander that didn't do anything to hurt anyone, that's complete and utter balls. GOD even had beef with Nemesis one time, funny times, unfortunately though I can't remember much on that one, there are people who can though. Xiph being a innocent pot of flowers, being marginalised by big bad amossio with an interest in hurting the poor petal in order to get one up for umbrella, you're hilarious mate.

anyways http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=98618 got some lovely spoilers there.

Edited by Amossio
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[quote name='Amossio' timestamp='1345545297' post='3024018']
I highly doubt those friends in LoSS would have told you anything of great importance at the time, Maybe you have a few friends in LoSS but I do remember having a laugh a couple of times at your expense in LoSS chan. It's not so much as nobody cares about who you are, but not many people take your word seriously or regard you with any importance, afterall none knows where you gona end up next after a 3 week spell somewhere.
[/quote]

Really? The 'ur so relevant' meme to preface your retort? I don't think anybody is saying Xiph is a angel winged saint who spews unicorns from his arse and rides rainbows. Hell, he himself would tell you that he is a hard case at times and can be what some would say a male sex organ. The bottom line though is I have only seen him act in such a manner when it is warranted, and I know I'm not relevant but I have known him for some time and worked with him too.

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[quote name='Amossio' timestamp='1345545297' post='3024018']
I highly doubt those friends in LoSS would have told you anything of great importance at the time, Maybe you have a few friends in LoSS but I do remember having a laugh a couple of times at your expense in LoSS chan. It's not so much as nobody cares about who you are, but not many people take your word seriously or regard you with any importance, afterall none knows where you gona end up next after a 3 week spell somewhere. As for me having a interest in seeing Xiphosis maligned, I really don't care about xiph, but to play him as a innocent by stander that didn't do anything to hurt anyone, that's complete and utter balls. GOD even had beef with Nemesis one time, funny times, unfortunately though I can't remember much on that one, there are people who can though. Xiph being a innocent pot of flowers, being marginalised by big bad amossio with an interest in hurting the poor petal in order to get one up for umbrella, you're hilarious mate.

anyways http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=98618 got some lovely spoilers there.
[/quote]

I wasn't referring to you having to malign Xiph. It was directed at people like MK who had to have public opinion against him in order to execute their war. Feel free to say I "know nothing" or "no one takes me seriously", but in this case I probably have the most information of anyone. I talk a lot of !@#$. However, being extremely good friends with CSN gov, being IAA's only active government member with a long friendship with the LoSS government at the time, and keeping in constant contact with them, DT, and CSN I know what I'm talking about.

I actually recall having quite a few laughs at a lot of people during that time. I do remember laughing at DT for trying to pull out early, laughing at Leet for whining to Gibs, and laughing at the government of GATO for believing they could strongarm CSN when they didn't even have the balls to fight smaller maroon alliances for a week. I never laughed at you, because no one has a !@#$@#$ clue who you are.

Also, Xiph was angry at Nemesis for not standing by him during Karma. Of course Nemesis canceled on LoSS for simply signing a PIAT with TOOL, so I guess Nemesis was just a !@#$%* alliance with no loyalty.

Edited by Omniscient1
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Azaghul, I agree this era is not as bad as the last, it is worse.

Nowadays EVRYONE is too damned concerned with self preservation that they have turned this world into a mind numbingly boring wasteland. The last era was not much better in this regard but there was at least always a remainder of the old "North/south" webs from the GW era. Now everything is so tangled and intertwined that individual alliances have lost their identities and alliance leaders are too afraid of their own shadows to act.

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[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1345560431' post='3024049']
I wasn't referring to you having to malign Xiph. It was directed at people like MK who had to have public opinion against him in order to execute their war. Feel free to say I "know nothing" or "no one takes me seriously", but in this case I probably have the most information of anyone. I talk a lot of !@#$. However, being extremely good friends with CSN gov, being IAA's only active government member with a long friendship with the LoSS government at the time, and keeping in constant contact with them, DT, and CSN I know what I'm talking about.

I actually recall having quite a few laughs at a lot of people during that time. I do remember laughing at DT for trying to pull out early, laughing at Leet for whining to Gibs, and laughing at the government of GATO for believing they could strongarm CSN when they didn't even have the balls to fight smaller maroon alliances for a week. I never laughed at you, because no one has a !@#$@#$ clue who you are.

Also, Xiph was angry at Nemesis for not standing by him during Karma. Of course Nemesis canceled on LoSS for simply signing a PIAT with TOOL, [b]so I guess Nemesis was just a !@#$%* alliance with no loyalty[/b].
[/quote]


The treaty was worded as an ODP, despite being sold to Nemesis as a PIAT, this is self admitted by LoSS Triums at the time, so yea, read more son. They signed with someone we mortally hated, the membership of Nemesis hated TOOL. The treaty was put up for review by our membership upon finding out we were mislead by them calling it a PIAT when it was a ODP, and written as such. WE dropped them based on the memberships vote. CGB was an abusive little !@#$. I was first hand witness to his rant. I was glad it was dropped and so was the members. It didn't end out friendship with each others members. Had you had a single clue about the dynamics of our relationship with LoSS then you would clearly not have made that !@#$ bird comment I have bold.

It's nice to see you hail us and say you love Nemesis to !@#$ talk them when they are gone and buried. Stay cool you hipster kid.

Or maybe just shut up ya goonbah.

To quote you in that very cancellation thread.

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1274098686' post='2301150']
Wow I am shocked too. Good luck to both alliances anyway though. You guys are both awesome.
[/quote]


Much love back to ya!

Edited by Hiro Nakara
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