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Will the Real Ragnarok Please stand up?


Yukon Don

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[quote name='Don Chele' timestamp='1328121138' post='2912643']
It just goes to show that the alliances dominating this thread see the situation as little more than a vehicle to advance their unrelated agendas. I suppose it would be naive to expect more. Clearly RoK has no right to self-determination regarding their internal function...
[/quote]

Why do they have to be unrelated? Ilyani was a great partner for most of them, but more or less just a temporary excuse to[i] not[/i] roll Ragnarok for the moment.
Hell, I have doubts that becoming an unquestioning puppet would've stopped that.

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[quote name='Rampage3' timestamp='1328119759' post='2912626']
To MK, I know that you are not without reason. The Kait situation is a mess, but let's be honest: any raider that hit Kait, no matter the reason, was going to get nuked by Kait. You knew that when you came to her door. I sincerely hope that we can clear this mess up and, if you prefer, I will make myself available to assist in that regard should you think that helpful.
[/quote]

First of all that was a great post Rampage, thank you. To once again make note of the part of the situation that concerns my alliance, however, please recall this: Yes, of course the nations expected Kait to fight back. However, we did not anticipate her to fight back as a member of Ragnarok. It became even more confusing when she continued to attack on the second day [i]while we were in negotiations.[/i] The issue at first was that they never came to MK to discuss accepting a member whom was at war with us (Yes, I realize the point of contention here that they are arguing is that she was a member the whole time, but lets look at it from my perspective for once too). We had moved on from this and were negotiating, it would seem logical for KK to realize that she should probably stop striking while we sorted it out. From the get-go I had been recognizing Adel as the "legit" government, and actually I had been the one reaching out to Adel to resolve this issue. To have more nukes come down on the second day while we were sorting things out is a slap in the face. Sorry, but I'm not just going to keep taking that sitting down and letting it get swept up under the "internal turmoil" carpet.

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[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1328121379' post='2912646']
Why do they have to be unrelated? Ilyani was a great partner for most of them, but more or less just a temporary excuse to[i] not[/i] roll Ragnarok for the moment.
Hell, I have doubts that becoming an unquestioning puppet would've stopped that.
[/quote]

If people want to roll RoK, nothing is stopping them from just saying "we are going to roll RoK because we don't like them". I don't see why they need to operate under the pretext that it has anything to do with RoK allegedly violating their own charter and choosing a new leader.

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[quote name='Don Chele' timestamp='1328121138' post='2912643']
It just goes to show that the alliances dominating this thread see the situation as little more than a vehicle to advance their unrelated agendas. I suppose it would be naive to expect more. Clearly RoK has no right to self-determination regarding their internal function...
[/quote]
I'm glad you understand.

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1328121355' post='2912645']
...for OOC reasons[/OOC] as has already been established by multiple people winthin and outside MK in this thread. You're not cute.
[/quote]

I'm not trying to be cute. I think you know me well enough to know where I stand and what I would (and wouldn't) do.

As I told jerdge, whatever reason Joe and Bob had to serve us Kait is of little to no concern to us. We had an opportunity to roll someone we have disliked for ages. We seized it.

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[quote name='Don Chele' timestamp='1328121529' post='2912648']
If people want to roll RoK, nothing is stopping them from just saying "we are going to roll RoK because we don't like them". I don't see why they need to operate under the pretext that it has anything to do with RoK allegedly violating their own charter and choosing a new leader.
[/quote]

Because it's easier to sell.


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[quote name='potato' timestamp='1328121630' post='2912651']
I'm not trying to be cute. I think you know me well enough to know where I stand and what I would (and wouldn't) do.[/quote]I thought I did, but I'm learning a lot of things this week.

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1328121630' post='2912651']
As I told jerdge, whatever reason Joe and Bob had to serve us Kait is of little to no concern to us. We had an opportunity to roll someone we have disliked for ages. We seized it.
[/quote]And you used that moment to do this: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=108681 Your little song and dance is just that.

Edited by Schattenmann
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[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1328121799' post='2912652']
Because it's easier to sell.
[/quote]

We don't have to [i]sell[/i] anything and have little interest in destroying Ragnarok beyond taking measures regarding their nuclear attacks on us. They're free to go about their business and appoint whoever the hell they want to lead them the moment they stop wasting our time in negotiations.

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[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1328106789' post='2912535']
Nah sorry dawg, I have more respect for my allies than that. And I tried to cancel on Umbrella months ago but we mutually decided we didn't want to hurt our daughter GOONS through such a messy break-up.
[/quote]
The divorce would never take :colbert:.

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1328121920' post='2912653']
I thought I did.
And you used that moment to do this: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=108681 Your little song and dance is just that.
[/quote]

[url="http://mushroom-kingdom.info/boards/index.php?topic=40978.0;message=641089"]This[/url] is the best answer I can give you. If you don't have an account on our boards, I'll be happy to PM it to you.

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[quote name='Don Chele' timestamp='1328122057' post='2912656']
Alliances with superior power should have the stones not to rely on the easiest sales pitch in an echo chamber.
[/quote]

Think of just going without the sales pitch as the backup plan.

No point of trying to force a lock if you've got 85% odds to not jamming the lock if you can try to pick it with 40% odds first.

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[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1328120764' post='2912639']
It's like everyone's just going to ignore Rampage.

Hey! It's exactly what I thought happened.
[/quote]

[quote name='Don Chele' timestamp='1328121138' post='2912643']
It just goes to show that the alliances dominating this thread see the situation as little more than a vehicle to advance their unrelated agendas. I suppose it would be naive to expect more. Clearly RoK has no right to self-determination regarding their internal function...
[/quote]

You two blithering idiots do realize that in the span of twenty minutes I've both acknowledged, respected, and responded to Rampage's post, while you guys have gone on spouting about god knows what [i]and ignored my post, precisely what you were accusing the "[alliances that dominate] this thread" of doing[/i]? And you honestly wonder why people stop feeling any motivation to bring more discourse to this place?

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[quote name='potato' timestamp='1328122186' post='2912657']
[url="http://mushroom-kingdom.info/boards/index.php?topic=40978.0;message=641089"]This[/url] is the best answer I can give you. If you don't have an account on our boards, I'll be happy to PM it to you.
[/quote]
Given your alliance's use of personal information, you can proceed to PMs.

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[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1328122343' post='2912659']
You two blithering idiots do realize that in the span of twenty minutes I've both acknowledged, respected, and responded to Rampage's post, while you guys have gone on spouting about god knows what [i]and ignored my post, precisely what you were accusing the "[alliances that dominate] this thread" of doing[/i]? And you honestly wonder why people stop feeling any motivation to bring more discourse to this place?
[/quote]

Ad-hominem aside you'll note that your response comes after about 5 individuals openly mocked and/or ignored Rampage's post, which just as my post you've quoted came an astounding 10 minutes before your post, which really doesn't acknowledge the ramifications but is an attempt to justify your alliance's actions which I am not alone in considering unreasonable.

Unless you expect me to have some crystal ball and expect to be congratulated for one quasi-reasonable post ten minutes after my post pointing out the five unreasonable ones before it there's little more I can do for you, sir man dude brah.

Edit: It is interesting to note the contrasting opinion of whether things should be publicized or not when it depends on whom's actions are the topic of review.

Edited by IYIyTh
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[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1328121438' post='2912647']
First of all that was a great post Rampage, thank you. To once again make note of the part of the situation that concerns my alliance, however, please recall this: Yes, of course the nations expected Kait to fight back. However, we did not anticipate her to fight back as a member of Ragnarok. It became even more confusing when she continued to attack on the second day [i]while we were in negotiations.[/i] The issue at first was that they never came to MK to discuss accepting a member whom was at war with us (Yes, I realize the point of contention here that they are arguing is that she was a member the whole time, but lets look at it from my perspective for once too). We had moved on from this and were negotiating, it would seem logical for KK to realize that she should probably stop striking while we sorted it out. From the get-go I had been recognizing Adel as the "legit" government, and actually I had been the one reaching out to Adel to resolve this issue. To have more nukes come down on the second day while we were sorting things out is a slap in the face. Sorry, but I'm not just going to keep taking that sitting down and letting it get swept up under the "internal turmoil" carpet.
[/quote]


[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1328122343' post='2912659']
You two blithering idiots do realize that in the span of twenty minutes I've both acknowledged, respected, and responded to Rampage's post, while you guys have gone on spouting about god knows what [i]and ignored my post, precisely what you were accusing the "[alliances that dominate] this thread" of doing[/i]? And you honestly wonder why people stop feeling any motivation to bring more discourse to this place?
[/quote]

I suppose I am clearly the most obtuse person in this thread. That conceded, I actually agree with most of your reply as presented, but I was intentionally avoiding comment on the negotiations between MK and RoK regarding KK's nukes because I personally lack all the facts and therefore cannot say who is or isn't right. I don't believe she lacked the right to nuke those attacking her, but I accept that it is entirely possible that she should have laid off if negotiations in good faith were ongoing and MK had stopped attacking her. My point was only meant to address questions of the legitimacy of Adel as leader of RoK, which you say you accept. I don't think I'm arguing with you, or at least I don't intend to be.

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[quote name='potato' timestamp='1328123059' post='2912666']
You really shouldn't use words when you don't know what they mean.
[/quote]

Oh dear, no one tell him.

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[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1328121438' post='2912647']
First of all that was a great post Rampage, thank you. To once again make note of the part of the situation that concerns my alliance, however, please recall this: Yes, of course the nations expected Kait to fight back. However, we did not anticipate her to fight back as a member of Ragnarok. It became even more confusing when she continued to attack on the second day [i]while we were in negotiations.[/i] The issue at first was that they never came to MK to discuss accepting a member whom was at war with us (Yes, I realize the point of contention here that they are arguing is that she was a member the whole time, but lets look at it from my perspective for once too). We had moved on from this and were negotiating, it would seem logical for KK to realize that she should probably stop striking while we sorted it out. From the get-go I had been recognizing Adel as the "legit" government, and actually I had been the one reaching out to Adel to resolve this issue. To have more nukes come down on the second day while we were sorting things out is a slap in the face. Sorry, but I'm not just going to keep taking that sitting down and letting it get swept up under the "internal turmoil" carpet.
[/quote]

Thanks for focusing on your point of view concerning the actual issue we have between us. I will be contacting parties and see what (if anything) I can do to help. I believe that damage reports were requested from MK. If not, I am requesting them now.

I am still retired. But if I can do something to help in this instance I will do so. I will be on tonight to discuss this further if at all possible. Out of respect for MK and for Ragnarok I will not comment here further on our situation. I plan to be in touch.

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[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1328123916' post='2912671']
No one tell [i]him.[/i]
[/quote]

association, tu quoque in order.

Also, don't you have a meme for posts like this or something?

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Since someone mentioned us, I guess I'd better respond. Firstly, ChairmanHul, learn to spell our name correctly. It's not that hard. Secondly, it is a false analogy: we did not coup Ramirus, we formed a new alliance and then occupied their AA and told them to do something about it. None of us have ever claimed to be leaders or even members of the old Grämlins at the time that we started the new one. We simply took something which we believed we had a right to (the AA) and the other alliance was too weak to do anything about it. That is [i]entirely different[/i] from two different groups of people claiming to be legitimate rulers of the same alliance.

Rampage, thanks for clarifying the issue somewhat. I must still ask you though, since it's fairly widely acknowledged that Adel had a central role in taking down the alliance forums, how can you possibly support her? Taking down forums is fairly clearly a serious hostile action. She wasn't even on the AA until the 28th having apparently resigned and taken advantage of an amnesty.

Schatt, attacking Kait's nation is not an 'OOC attack'. At any time she became unaligned there would be a queue around the block to hit her. It's unfortunate that the timing of the expulsion was right in there with the RL issues, and the evidence about that incident that MK turned up increased the amount of dislike for her, but she fully deserves to get rolled for past (IC) actions. This is not equivalent, as some have suggested, to Slayer hitting NoV, because there was no in-game reason for that at all, whereas Kait (and for that matter Hoo and RoK as a whole) have left several burned bridges and reasons to roll them – if any of those entities become entirely unprotected at any time, expect them to be attacked.

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[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1328126058' post='2912685']
Rampage, thanks for clarifying the issue somewhat. I must still ask you though, since it's fairly widely acknowledged that Adel had a central role in taking down the alliance forums, how can you possibly support her? Taking down forums is fairly clearly a serious hostile action. She wasn't even on the AA until the 28th having apparently resigned and taken advantage of an amnesty.
[/quote]

In the end Bob, it is not about what I want. The "what Rampage wants" ship sailed a bit back. I would have preferred that the members of my alliance find a way to deal with one another more reasonably and privately than they did. I would have preferred that my selection as successor not participate in OOC attacks on my predecessor. I would have preferred not to try to log-in Friday AM to the forums only to not get anything. I would have preferred not to [ooc]rock a sick child in the middle of the night while trying to figure out what the hell happened in the less than a week since I stepped down[ooc].

This is where we are. Rok is her warriors. They support Adel. I support Rok. And given Ragnarok's situation, I cannot simply walk away from my AA at this time. Some can, and I wish them well. But not me.

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[quote name='Rampage3' timestamp='1328127178' post='2912687']
In the end Bob, it is not about what I want. The "what Rampage wants" ship sailed a bit back. I would have preferred that the members of my alliance find a way to deal with one another more reasonably and privately than they did. I would have preferred that my selection as successor not participate in OOC attacks on my predecessor. I would have preferred not to try to log-in Friday AM to the forums only to not get anything. I would have preferred not to [ooc]rock a sick child in the middle of the night while trying to figure out what the hell happened in the less than a week since I stepped down[ooc].

This is where we are. Rok is her warriors. They support Adel. I support Rok. And given Ragnarok's situation, I cannot simply walk away from my AA at this time. Some can, and I wish them well. But not me.
[/quote]

And this is why I enjoyed working with you during your tenure.

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[quote name='Rampage3' timestamp='1328127178' post='2912687']
In the end Bob, it is not about what I want. The "what Rampage wants" ship sailed a bit back. I would have preferred that the members of my alliance find a way to deal with one another more reasonably and privately than they did. I would have preferred that my selection as successor not participate in OOC attacks on my predecessor. I would have preferred not to try to log-in Friday AM to the forums only to not get anything. I would have preferred not to [ooc]rock a sick child in the middle of the night while trying to figure out what the hell happened in the less than a week since I stepped down[ooc].

This is where we are. Rok is her warriors. They support Adel. I support Rok. And given Ragnarok's situation, I cannot simply walk away from my AA at this time. Some can, and I wish them well. But not me.
[/quote]

Hopefully your RL stuff gets resolved so you can come back and save RoK. This post gives me a small bit of hope.

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