WarriorConcept Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 I don't think you quite understand the chain of events.Talk of creating an alliance separate from TPF was discussed pre Karma. So they had a valid CB from before karma? Nice Those wanting to create this AA postponed it to fight for TPF.A plan was discussed to use this separate AA to destabilize one of the AAs on the other side, if there is a long and drawn out war, which looks very possible due to the forces wishing to kill NPO and TPF stance on not leaving until all of our allies get peace.. Yes infiltrate the alliance that has no say on terms with your alliance because you never declared on it, right. Before the war ended, those wishing to form this new AA were allowed to surrender to Karma, leave TPF and form Zero Hour.OOC drama led to a severing of ties with Zero Hour, the above mentioned plan was scrapped, no longer an option, dead, over, finished, kaput. Really? When did mhawk tell them the plan is over? The Karma war continued.Zero Hour, signed a protectorate with Athens, apparently due to a real friendship that had developed. Just it happened to be part of mhawk's plan. TPF surrenders to the forces of Karma, signs terms and completes them. Should've told athens about that plan there and canceled it. Several months later, ZH reveals the discussions of the now infamous plan to Athens.RoK declares? Still not sure why. Here's some light reading Athens declares.GOD and \m/ bandwagon. Or they needed people who were online that could stop you guys from hitting peace mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBone Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 There's no way to know, see, because TPF didn't tell anyone when they surrendered that they'd put this sort of plan into action. What it comes down to is whether you trust the word of an alliance that schemed to send in sleeper cells to bring you down from within and then never came clean about it, never mentioned ceasing the operations, and never concluded a surrender with those actions accounted for. At this point I'd say that [00:32] <mhawk> [...TPF]'s word means nothing . Ask ZH when the plan was taken out of play. I would hope they say the truth, which would be, well before TPF surrendered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mixoux Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 GOD and \m/ bandwagon. Yes, we obviously bandwagoned because they it's not like they asked us to come in or anything. We also just love to roll with 30 minute notice, it's the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Ask ZH when the plan was taken out of play.I would hope they say the truth, which would be, well before TPF surrendered. Same old story. The onus isn't on them, it's on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Ask ZH when the plan was taken out of play.I would hope they say the truth, which would be, well before TPF surrendered. Why don't you show us some proof of when mhawk took the plan out of play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citizenkane Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Oh look, its mhawk telling us we're all immoral again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBone Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Same old story. The onus isn't on them, it's on you. No where did I state the onus was on them. I merely asked Doitzel to ask ZH, as he obviously does not believe TPFs version of the events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 No where did I state the onus was on them.I merely asked Doitzel to ask ZH, as he obviously does not believe TPFs version of the events. Why don't you show us some proof of when mhawk took the plan out of play? Go ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooner Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I hear mhawk makes a great turkey. In fact, he's roasting in my oven right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainImpavid Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 No where did I state the onus was on them.I merely asked Doitzel to ask ZH, as he obviously does not believe TPFs version of the events. You logic is a little...stunted. "You don't believe me? Ask them. Of course, if they don't say what I did, they're lying. Don't believe me? Ask them..." err... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banned Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 A lot of people have pointed out 2 things, that I'd like to re-address. 1. This operation happened 6 months ago, during the Karma war. 2. Athens just came out of a conflict 6 months where they were defending spies. What I think people are forgetting, and you can see it above if you look close enough... is that this happened while Athens was leading the charge to defend an alliance that was spying, and now they're declaring war over it. This conflict is nothing but digging up old grudges. Apparently Athens feels that TPF did not get enough in the Karma war, and now because they can, they're going to give them the beating they feel they should have got then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 A lot of people have pointed out 2 things, that I'd like to re-address. 1. This operation happened 6 months ago, during the Karma war. 2. Athens just came out of a conflict 6 months where they were defending spies. What I think people are forgetting, and you can see it above if you look close enough... is that this happened while Athens was leading the charge to defend an alliance that was spying, and now they're declaring war over it. This conflict is nothing but digging up old grudges. Apparently Athens feels that TPF did not get enough in the Karma war, and now because they can, they're going to give them the beating they feel they should have got then. I'd like to address one thing: TPF created an entity to infiltrate Athens and others. TPF, for whatever reason, withdrew support from this entity, but took no steps to stop it from still fulfilling the original goal. How does this absolve them from responsibility? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mixoux Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I'd like to address one thing:TPF created an entity to infiltrate Athens and others. TPF, for whatever reason, withdrew support from this entity, but took no steps to stop it from still fulfilling the original goal. How does this absolve them from responsibility? If you never talk about it ever again, maybe it'll just go away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 A lot of people have pointed out 2 things, that I'd like to re-address. 1. This operation happened 6 months ago, during the Karma war. 2. Athens just came out of a conflict 6 months where they were defending spies. 1. This operation was never called off. 2. OV wasn't spying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalaskan Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 If you never talk about it ever again, maybe it'll just go away! I think it was answered...just not to your liking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 A lot of people have pointed out 2 things, that I'd like to re-address. 1. This operation happened 6 months ago, during the Karma war. 2. Athens just came out of a conflict 6 months where they were defending spies. What I think people are forgetting, and you can see it above if you look close enough... is that this happened while Athens was leading the charge to defend an alliance that was spying, and now they're declaring war over it. This conflict is nothing but digging up old grudges. Apparently Athens feels that TPF did not get enough in the Karma war, and now because they can, they're going to give them the beating they feel they should have got then. wow. you do realize that OV did not spy. OV accepted information from a spy. Athens did not defend that Blackstone guy. also realize that NPO or TPF spied on OV to gain the knowledge that a member of OV had accepted info from a spy. so your argument is fail. Athens did not defend a spy, they defended OV who was hit by NPO and TORN in the middle of peace talks about OV accepting info from a spy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) I think it was answered...just not to your liking. Think I misread that... Edited December 28, 2009 by Kevin McDonald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I think it was answered...just not to your liking. They're both arguing for the same side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penkala Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I haven't read this all yet but I'm working on it. In the meantime, I'd like to point out that it's funny that mhawk believes that he can start something against alliances he hates in a global war, then never call it off, and still claim it was a wartime activity. If mhawk had contacted Athens to tell them what had happened, and recalled the members, and called everything off, there would be no CB here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBone Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Go ahead. It's right in Athens DoW....I bolded the relevant parts for you. When stuck between a rock and a hard place, one must often make a hard decision. We hope that when someone is faced with such a situation, they also make a smart one. I come to you today, with news that someone has not made the smart decision. First, a bit of background to help fill everyone in. Back in July Athens took on a new protectorate by the name of Zero Hour. Things went smoothly until recently when we began talking of upgrading our treaty level with them. That is when they decided to come clean about their past. During the Karma War, mhawk of The Phoenix Federation, sent them away on a mission. As the logs below will show you, mhawk wanted ZH to spy upon Athens, by joining with us and attempting to fracture us from the inside. ZH, having found us to be a bit more likable than mhawk made us out to be, abandoned this mission in August. This is not the full extent of the transgressions however, as mhawk also had plans (as can be seen in the logs below) to infiltrate and work against other CN alliances from the inside, most notably Sparta and Ragnarok. Both of them have since been notified and are also justifiably upset. Spying upon an alliance has never been a tolerated act within CN, and nothing has changed about that. There is no statute of limitations for spying and given our history with mhawk and TPF we have little reason to believe his aggression towards us ceased on August 24th just because Zero Hour told him they weren't going along with his plan any longer. As such, Athens has no choice but to acknowledge the belligerence of The Phoenix Federation and defend ourselves with a full military response. /s/ Londo – Archon Eponymos Max – Archon Eponymos HavoK – Regent Rsoxbronco1 – Archon Basileus angryraccoon - Polemarch Jgoods – Minister of Foreign Affairs Kazeki – Minister of Defense http://shorttext.com/8nv6s6vyg Mhawk really had no choice but to shut down the plan as Zero Hour opted out in late August. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 It's right in Athens DoW....I bolded the relevant parts for you.Mhawk really had no choice but to shut down the plan as Zero Hour opted out in late August. And then Mhawk went to Athens and said "hey, so there was this thing, but...."? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banned Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 If TPF abandoned the operation and called it off, then what else are they expected to do to stop those people from completing their original objective? Oh my... they might actually merge into Athens and do good things there. Seeing as they were abandoned by TPF, the only thing they could still do is complete their original objective... to merge with Athens. Of course, they'd have nobody to sabotage them for, so they'd likely end up being productive members of that alliance if that happened. Oh my, I can see the problems here. They were helping Athens recruit. Now that IS a valid CB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) It's right in Athens DoW....I bolded the relevant parts for you.Mhawk really had no choice but to shut down the plan as Zero Hour opted out in late August. So where is the proof that mhawk shut down the plan? Just because his infiltrators realized that the plan was wrong later on doesn't mean that mhawk's intent to harm Athens and malice has ceased. Edited December 28, 2009 by WarriorConcept Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doitzel Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 If TPF abandoned the operation and called it off, then what else are they expected to do to stop those people from completing their original objective?Oh my... they might actually merge into Athens and do good things there. Seeing as they were abandoned by TPF, the only thing they could still do is complete their original objective... to merge with Athens. Of course, they'd have nobody to sabotage them for, so they'd likely end up being productive members of that alliance if that happened. Oh my, I can see the problems here. They were helping Athens recruit. Now that IS a valid CB. Why does nobody understand that intent, not result, is what the issue is? It's not that difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 If TPF abandoned the operation and called it off, then what else are they expected to do to stop those people from completing their original objective? When did he shut down the plan and call it off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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