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The Phoenix's Defiance


loannes

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The thread's been up for three hours at the time of this writing. The Phoenix Federation has refused, and given it's reasons for refusing, the terms given by Karma and affiliates. If you haven't read it, click here for the thread. It's a response to this thread.

The terms, for anyone who doesn't want to click a link, are as follows.

Article I ~ Surrender

TPF hereby formerly surrenders and admits defeat to Karma, and specifically to Poison Clan, Mushroom Kingdom, Federation of Buccaneers, Nueva Vida, Christian Coalition of Countries, Avalanche, and the Greenland Republic.

Article II ~ ZI lists and wars

TPF formally releases all nations from any ZI, PZI, or EZI lists and declares a white peace in all wars against any nation, alliance affiliation, or alliance that is not the undersigned.

No offensive war or spy attack may be launched against any nation except ghosts and rogues against TPF for the duration of these terms, under the provisions outlined in Article IV.

Article III ~ Reparations

TPF agrees to pay the following in reparations:

20,000 tech to Poison Clan

180 million to Federation of Buccaneers

9,000 tech to Mushroom Kingdom

120 million to Avalanche

After the first 15 days, at least 60 million and 6000 tech must be paid every month.

Reparations payments must come from TPF nations. All other outside aid is allowed, however tech sellers must be offered to the signatory alliances before any outside alliances.

Article IV ~ Military

TPF nations must decomission all nuclear weapons, navies, barracks, guerrilla camps, naval improvements, satellites and missile defenses. Nations with the SDI Wonder are allowed to maintain the 3 satellites and missile defenses required for the Wonder.

In the instance of a rogue attack, or to drive a ghost from the TPF AA, up to three TPF nations may build all military improvements, navies, and up to five nuclear missiles each in order to attack that rogue or ghost. Only one of those nations can be a holder of a Weapons Research Center wonder.

Any nation that is attacked by a rogue may build all military improvements, navies, and up to 5 five nuclear missiles as well for the duration of that war.

No Manhattan Projects may be purchased for the duration of these terms.

Article V ~ POWs

No nation who surrendered to Karma may return to TPF for the duration of these terms.

Article VI ~ Treaties

TPF hereby suspends all treaties with a military clause for the duration of these terms. TPF may not sign any new treaties with a military clause without the approval of the undersigned as long as these terms are in effect.

Article VII ~ Length

These terms will be in effect for a minimum period of 90 days, and will persist beyond that point until all reparation payments are completed.

Violations will be dealt with on an individual basis. Any individual nations repeatedly violating the terms will be subject to expulsion from TPF and ZI.

Should a pattern of violations occur and TPF is uncooperative in resolving them, it may result in a resumption of hostilities against TPF. The undersigned will maintain channels of communication with TPF throughout the period of this surrender to communicate any and all violations.

29,000 tech and $300 million are the reps. It's obviously manageable, yet TPF refuses to surrender. So, since I'm utterly bored, I'll poke at the pieces of TPF's thread.

Let me get the following arguments out of the way for you so we can get to the crux of the issue.

# But TPF is ebil, you should be ground into dust and never allowed to return

# Tough Cookies, you made your bed, lie in it.

# You say you will pay X, but by my calculations, you can pay:v2= (2k/m) cos(x)+ C' or

v= dx/dt= sqrt((2k/m) cos(x)+ C')

Ok. We get it you are smrt, we still get laid more.

# STA was made to pay big reps when entering on behalf of Polar and got !@#$%*^, so you should too.

# You bailed out on the UJP you must pay into eternity

# What is the definition of "is"?

# You killed my father!

TPF tries to make people laugh and get the main arguments out of the way. No point in replying to this.

See, there is an underlying issue here, and that is simple. The Phoenix Federation entered this war in defense of an ally that was attacked. That our ally was attacked in an aggressive war is irrelevant. We honored our treaty obligation to the end. Frankly, I was quite vocal then, and now that we were holding our noses doing it. But most relevant to this discussion, we were also attacked in abrogation of a signed treaty (put your self-rationalizing e-lawyering away).

I'm sorry, did you get the memo? Your ally surrendered. Your obligations are over. You and Avalon are the only ones at war right now, and I don't even know why Avalon is! I know you're digging that Honor gig right now, but right now you're like little kids with a grudge.

'attacked in abrogation of a signed treaty.'

Ah, that short lived NAP with PC? I seem to recall the only cancellation term being something like, "If either signatory attacks the other, it is considered null and void." I saw no cancellation period. Call it e-lawyering if you want, but PC attacked you out of a higher obligation, and the 'obligation' they had to you was a 5 second NAP. Get over it, the war started, the war went on, you got nuked, you're going through hell. GET OVER IT AND SIGN THE TREATY.

This part here, this is going to hurt. Hurt, because well, it calls out a few of our still and soon to be former allies. Many of you out there chose to ignore your treaty obligations this time around. Or, only sought to honor the least word of them , then bail out to save your skin. Good for you, if that's what tickles your fancy. Like 64Digits and Avalon and our frenemies in STA, TPF has decided that our course hence will be that we will honor the blood marks of our treaties, until that treaty partner has peace. You can say what you will, but the BS that some of you throw around about friends > infra, well, those are hollow words until you prove it. I can't speak to the past about what TPF might have done, but I can speak to the present. A treaty with TPF is a treaty to the end. Ask yourself if you can really say that about ANY of the former members of tC.

"Ignore treaty obligations." Well, odds are that the alliances under attack, in most cases, asked their allies to stand out. Or the allies activated non-chaining clauses. For instance, my alliance, Ravyns, was asked to stay out of the war when we offered to help our protectors, the League of Small Superpowers. In the end we were asked to fight against Olympus, and then BAPS. Other alliances were asked by MDP partners to stay out the entire war.

"Like 64Digits..."

64D has already surrendered, bub. It's you and Avalon right now.

"friends > infra, well, those are hollow words until you prove it."

Alright, you proved your point. You stuck with NPO even though you're getting nuked day in and day out. NPO surrendered. Do you guys WANT to be another GOONS? You want another version of VietFAN? I guarantee you, it's not fun on the side getting crushed.

"A treaty with TPF is a treaty to the end."

You're really milking the treaty obligation thing. Your treaty obligations are over. NPO surrendered AND canceled all military treaties. The GRL will go down faster if you surrender, so stop making the neutral world suffer.

As we see it, the forces aligned against us are driven to extract every drop of blood from us because we are the last stop on this bus ride, and this is the last chance to get something, anything from the spoils of this war. We get it. You can have what we can pay. But you will not get blood from a stone. And trust me, we are stoned and will pay what has been asked.

They're asking for 29,000 tech and $300 million. That's not every drop of blood. Stop exaggerating.

Alright, you will pay what's been asked. Then do it. End this now-pointless war.

Personally, I found the last part somewhat amusing.

We agree that the amounts outlined by Azaghul in his post are within the range of reasonable. But we will not pay one cent to PoisonClan. We will not now, nor ever reward an alliance that attacked us by e-lawyering their way around a signed treaty. I cannot believe that any of the other alliances aligned against us currently can dare to see what honor is gained here. As we agreed that we would stay in this war to the end, we also agreed to a person that we wouldn't reward war for profit. There is an adage here on Bob that says that alliances who don't like the terms offered have the option of refusing them, and continuing to war. The opposite is also thus true. Alliances that win the war have the option of assigning acceptable terms, to ensure that they get something out of their victory. We agree that the terms are mostly reasoned, but that the inclusion of PC in being rewarded for breaking a treaty is reprehensible. If the forces of Karma would rather continue to pummel us for the sake of an alliance who breaks it's treaties, well, we'd rather be nuked into oblivion. We have made mistakes, attempted to reconcile where we can and we are prepared to accept our responsibilities both current and historical, to pay what we can, and to move forward.

You're refusing to pay the terms because of this feud with PC? Are you serious? PC declared war on you. So did MK. So have several alliances. What makes PC different? They broke an NAP that had no cancellation terms. Whoopdee-$%&@in-do. Think of it this way. If PC had informed you beforehand they were canceling the NAP, and still declared war on you, the same damage would have happened, give or take a few thousand NS.

"I cannot believe that any of the other alliances aligned against us currently can dare to see what honor is gained here"

Alright, never thought I'd have to say this, but, it's an online game. A bunch of people on computers. It's not like 1700s-1800s warfare.

"There is an adage here on Bob that says that alliances who don't like the terms offered have the option of refusing them, and continuing to war. The opposite is also thus true. Alliances that win the war have the option of assigning acceptable terms, to ensure that they get something out of their victory. We agree that the terms are mostly reasoned, but that the inclusion of PC in being rewarded for breaking a treaty is reprehensible."

I'm reminded of a group of small children. One of them has stolen toys from the others, and one of them used to be the thief's friend. All the small children hit the thief, and he says 'I'll give all your toy's back accept George's cause he was my friend and he hit me!'

PC fought for their allies. TPF fought for their allies. The difference is that PC ended an NAP when they attacked. If PC had attacked NPO while they and TPF held the NAP, odds are TPF would have broken the NAP and joined the fight with NPO.

tl;dr

GET OVER YOUR GRUDGE. PC fought because of obligations, and personally, I think it's stupid to expect an NAP with bitter rivals to stand over an MDP with good friends. Accept peace and let everyone move on.

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The full text of the NAP is here.

The Phoenix Federation - Poison Clan Non-Aggression Pact

Article 1: Non-Aggression

Neither Poison Clan nor TPF may engage in any hostile actions, overt or covert, towards the other signatory.

Article 2: Extended Non-Aggression

Poison Clan may not engage in any hostile actions, overt or covert, towards any of Alliance that holds a treaty with TPF at a level of MDP or higher. TPF may not engage in any hostile actions, overt or covert, towards any of Alliance that holds a treaty with Poison Clan at a level of MDP or higher.

Article 3: Cancellation

Either Party may cancel this agreement. Once one party notifies the other with their intent to cancel, the Pact stays in effect for 10 days. If either party breaks the pact, it is considered null and void.

Signed,

For The Phoenix Federation,

mhawk - Hard Six Roller

For Poison Clan,

chinatownbus - hard sixty-nine watcher aka the toad

TwistedRebelDB47 - Master Killer

Pooksland - The Centipede

Syrik - The Snake

Revelation - The Snail

Boogeyman657 - The Trout

Don Fernando - The Komodo Dragon

Liquid Fire - Master of the Domain

Plysprtz - Hybrid Venom

b3x - Brew Master, Lord God King of the Keg

Article 3 is the cancellation clause.

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