The Pacific Press

There's nothing forever about it. Nobody (on the Karma side, anyway) wants eternal war.

Nobody wants to see you back on top of the world again either, but you will have at least a chance at that, and measures taken to impede it aren't keeping you down forever in any sense comparable to E/PZI.

I already addressed the "forever" part a few replies back. Yes, nothing is ever "forever". But this war is indefinite.

It's only as indefinite as you choose to make it. And any individual can choose to make it end at any time they want.

There's nothing forever about it. Nobody (on the Karma side, anyway) wants eternal war.

Nobody wants to see you back on top of the world again either, but you will have at least a chance at that, and measures taken to impede it aren't keeping you down forever in any sense comparable to E/PZI.

I already addressed the "forever" part a few replies back. Yes, nothing is ever "forever". But this war is indefinite.

If so many of your nations hadn't run to peace mode we'd likely have terms right now. If your nations left peace mode now the war would most likely end in a couple of weeks. The only thing that's making it indefinite is your stubbornness, not any desire on our part for it to be indefinite.

Interestingly enough I have found out that Sparta and other Karma alliances did not even know about these alleged Karma terms. Could it be that Ragnarok is being a bit presumptuous and stepping over the line? The reaction of one Sparta government member was pure shock and anger.....at Gen Lee.

As the Karma Turns.

This simply is not true and is another attempt to spread lies. I will not break OPSEC but this event was discussed by many people still engaged in the name of Karma. There is no way you can base the feeling of a whole coalition off of 1 mans reaction.

How does one go beyond ZI? D:

The real point behind PZI and EZI is to keep a nation forever down

Well, first, no, you're wrong. PZI is keeping a nation down, to be sure, but EZI is keeping a player down. Bringing EZI into the conversation is simply a cheap attempt to smear Karma.

And second, yes, PZI is keeping a nation down. Any nation can surrender and leave the war at any time. So there is no PZI going on here. Your government is keeping the alliance at war, and every member is keeping his own nation at war, through his own choice.

Have fun rotting in peace mode.

For all you double tongued pacificans:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=21476

My brothers and I are fighting until such time our leadership tells Us it's over. Whether Karma chooses to call it PZI,EZI,or indefinite war. The white part of chickens@#t is still chickens@#t.

My brothers and I are fighting until such time our leadership tells Us it's over. Whether Karma chooses to call it PZI,EZI,or indefinite war. The white part of chickens@#t is still chickens@#t.

You seem to mistake the meaning of PZI and EZI then.

PZI is ZI until the nation deletes. I was PZI by your 'brothers' for more than a year. There is no way off of ZI except for by the mercy of those ZIing you. There is no choice in the matter. EZI is the same thing but follows you even if you delete your nation and start a new one with a new name, provided anyone finds out who you are/

You have stated explicitly you are fighting by choice until your government tells you otherwise. This is not PZI. If you decided at some point to choose not to fight any longer you are given the opportunity to lay down arms This is not PZI. This is not EZI. This is war. In war there is surrender. The fact that you won't surrender when given the opportunity is the difference.

That you can't see this and insist that everyone in the world is as bad as you are is a ridiculous ill conceived attempt at political spin, and nothing more.

The longer they go hippie the smaller their warchests get. I am fine with it.

The longer you fight us, the smaller your will becomes. I look forward to your surrender.

Please give me whatever you are smoking.

Also

Goodbye

When was the last time you fought a long war?

Let me see.... oh yeah, never.

Oh the classic NO U comeback. As amazing as ever. (also check GW2/GW3 and the 5 month period where i was at war with you.)

And im also curious as to how you guys can even think you have some sort of "high ground" to dictate what will and will not happen.

You are the losers, lost, defeated, weaker, destroyed, watever other term you want to use, side. You dont get to dictate terms of your own surrender. You get offered terms, and you take them or leave them. NPO obviously loved the way FAN faught for two years and is trying to show they are just as good at peace mode warring as they were. You have "pulled a FAN" instead of taking the smart way out by taking your beating and moving on.

You can say that there is a weak force attacking you but trust me. There is still enough NPO hate in the world to keep you guys down for as long as FAN was if need be. Not many want to see it come to that but they are willing to fight that long if need be.

Though I guess you woud know best right? Afterall it was NPO that told GATO to leave peace mode. So you guys do have plenty of experence when it comes to forcing people out of peace mode.

My brothers and I are fighting until such time our leadership tells Us it's over. Whether Karma chooses to call it PZI,EZI,or indefinite war. The white part of chickens@#t is still chickens@#t.

You seem to mistake the meaning of PZI and EZI then.

PZI is ZI until the nation deletes. I was PZI by your 'brothers' for more than a year. There is no way off of ZI except for by the mercy of those ZIing you. There is no choice in the matter. EZI is the same thing but follows you even if you delete your nation and start a new one with a new name, provided anyone finds out who you are/

You have stated explicitly you are fighting by choice until your government tells you otherwise. This is not PZI. If you decided at some point to choose not to fight any longer you are given the opportunity to lay down arms This is not PZI. This is not EZI. This is war. In war there is surrender. The fact that you won't surrender when given the opportunity is the difference.

That you can't see this and insist that everyone in the world is as bad as you are is a ridiculous ill conceived attempt at political spin, and nothing more.

With those "instructions" Karma has established they want our banks gone so we can't rebuild.Our choice whether to surrender or not is really no choice at all is it?As for individual terms My honor dictates that I stay.So it's not really a choice either is it?

Interestingly enough I have found out that Sparta and other Karma alliances did not even know about these alleged Karma terms. Could it be that Ragnarok is being a bit presumptuous and stepping over the line? The reaction of one Sparta government member was pure shock and anger.....at Gen Lee.

As the Karma Turns.

This simply is not true and is another attempt to spread lies. I will not break OPSEC but this event was discussed by many people still engaged in the name of Karma. There is no way you can base the feeling of a whole coalition off of 1 mans reaction.

^This

Peace mode may be a viable tactic, but hiding out beyond the five days necessary to shake nuke anarchy off of you is keeping TPF in a war they shouldn't have to fight. Keep in mind you have an ally or two who will actually uphold their treaty with honor (would you believe that?).

I have nothing but respect for TPF for having the sacks to stay as long as they have. I've personally seen six opponents lose half their NS fighting me alone (with help from friends of course), and that says something.

With those "instructions" Karma has established they want our banks gone so we can't rebuild.Our choice whether to surrender or not is really no choice at all is it?As for individual terms My honor dictates that I stay.So it's not really a choice either is it?

It is a choice. You have the choice between your honor and your nation. That's more of a choice than anybody on PZI ever got. Comparing the two is an invalid argument.

And hey, if NPO prepared for war like a smart alliance by having nations with large warchests for rebuilding rather than relying a small segment of bank nations to do rebuilding this whole thing wouldn't be an issue. But NPO's strategists prefer to use the 'vaunted hippy shield' as they've so kindly put it in the past.

It is a choice. You have the choice between your honor and your nation. That's more of a choice than anybody on PZI ever got. Comparing the two is an invalid argument.

And hey, if NPO prepared for war like a smart alliance by having nations with large warchests for rebuilding rather than relying a small segment of bank nations to do rebuilding this whole thing wouldn't be an issue. But NPO's strategists prefer to use the 'vaunted hippy shield' as they've so kindly put it in the past.

Evidently we have failure to communicate here,My statement is this.If it takes my individual surrender to save my nation then there isn't a choice.If it takes Pacifica accepting terms that will lead to it's destruction. Then that's not much of a choice is it? But that was the purpose of these "instructions" in 1st place wasn't it?

The use of peaced banks is still a viable tactic, a tactic I might add that Karma also employed.

I will never surrender to those !@#$%^&*.. I don't care how hurt my nation gets, this "peace terms" are !@#$%^&* and we all know it. I am a Pacifican in heart, and Pacifica is not the surrendering type of alliance. We fight. We prevail! - MariMassa

Who? Nation was deleted today. What fight?

It is a choice. You have the choice between your honor and your nation. That's more of a choice than anybody on PZI ever got. Comparing the two is an invalid argument.

And hey, if NPO prepared for war like a smart alliance by having nations with large warchests for rebuilding rather than relying a small segment of bank nations to do rebuilding this whole thing wouldn't be an issue. But NPO's strategists prefer to use the 'vaunted hippy shield' as they've so kindly put it in the past.

I love how somebody who hasn't been in the NPO's military command for over 2 years is talking about the NPO's military like he has been. Anthony IS gone. It's time to move on bro.

Evidently we have failure to communicate here,My statement is this.If it takes my individual surrender to save my nation then there isn't a choice.If it takes Pacifica accepting terms that will lead to it's destruction. Then that's not much of a choice is it? But that was the purpose of these "instructions" in 1st place wasn't it?

The use of peaced banks is still a viable tactic, a tactic I might add that Karma also employed.

It is a choice, even if you don't like it.

Pacifica as a whole likewise has a chance to surrender, but if they don't like the terms they're offered they don't really have a position to claim they're being wronged. Any terms they're given Im sure are easier proportionally to those they have required in the past.

I love how somebody who hasn't been in the NPO's military command for over 2 years is talking about the NPO's military like he has been. Anthony IS gone. It's time to move on bro.

Some things never change. I speak based on reports from other alliances, the way the Pacifica has always acted, and the attitude Pacifica itself is portraying. I do not believe any of my prior command experience in the NPO is relevant, but more recent experiences are relevant.

But hey, we can ignore that experience, because I'm the traitorous scum, right?

Your terms were absolutely absurd, ours are not.

Your terms are not absurd? Threatening to add numbers to an as of yet undecided number that you can pull out of thin air at a later date, if we don't jump off a cliff? These are historically unprecedented in their absurdity. So absurd that there isn't even a hint that there would be a gain for us if we complied.

These terms, along with the rapidly changing language of Karma (as it sways back and ever more forth from 'moral' justification to power-political justification), demonstrates well the real reasoning behind this war -- the removal of a political competitor for the Karma elite.

Actually, Vladimir, these terms are not unprecedented. Ivan Moldavi gave the NAAC an ultimatum in Polar War II, ordering them to surrender or face reparations that would increase daily.

If anything, it should be encouraging, since white peace was given to them shortly afterwards.

The terms are ridiculous and I believe you are correct in rejecting them. The next set will be more favorable.

Wow. Penalties for Peace-Mode nations?

Like that's going to force a surrender faster.

It is a choice, even if you don't like it.

Pacifica as a whole likewise has a chance to surrender, but if they don't like the terms they're offered they don't really have a position to claim they're being wronged. Any terms they're given Im sure are easier proportionally to those they have required in the past.

What terms have we been offered? We're supposed to gamble our future as an alliance on yet unnamed terms?Other than these "instructions" meant to cripple us indefinitely,We haven't been given a chance to do to anything yet.Where is this choice?

And yes we get it.We're the root of all past evils ever committed on Bob.

Last I knew the term Karma wasn't all encompassing. Better terms than perma-ZI for those nations, I must say. Save all the "you are just as bad as us!" crap. Justice and fairness isn't about never having any punishments at all, it's about making them reasonable and proportional. You started an aggressive war knowing it's implications and who it would bring in. I am shedding few tears over the result.

Uh, if NPO has all the good strategists, why are they in the position they are in now? We are in a position of strength.

I agree 700mil+ a day on top of an unknown figure is quite reasonable.

If it's unreasonable then the smart thing to do is accept it and then work on getting peace. The offer is a heck of a lot better than those given to FAN and GATO when they were in hippy mode.

You have strange definitions of "smart thing to do." But I suppose that's to be expected when you're blinded by hate.

Blinded by hate? Really, that's a new one. For years I've respected and lived the Orders and worked to protect both Orders. But the hate comes from your gov, and then comes NPO conspiracies, lies, hate, backstabbing, false allegations and anything else to make sure that NPO stays on top and their views are the only correct view. It's sad that NPO has gone down the path that it has taken, and is at war with most of CN. If the government wasn't so self centered to be always right and has to be their way and worked with their allies honestly then we'd probably see a different situation.

But I have no hate for NPO, but I do have a dislike for those in power that guide and dictate the path and actions the alliance takes.

Wow. Penalties for Peace-Mode nations?

Like that's going to force a surrender faster.

that never happened before to other alliances right?

Goodluck positioning yourself in a stupid position.

You could've had peace in 2/3 weeks. Now it will take a lot longer.

Will it? Those instructions did not say anything about when real terms would be offered - remember those are just instructions to receiving terms.

Yes, it will.

Just have some faith in Karma alliances, we are not like NPO.

It is a choice, even if you don't like it.

Pacifica as a whole likewise has a chance to surrender, but if they don't like the terms they're offered they don't really have a position to claim they're being wronged. Any terms they're given Im sure are easier proportionally to those they have required in the past.

What terms have we been offered? We're supposed to gamble our future as an alliance on yet unnamed terms?Other than these "instructions" meant to cripple us indefinitely,We haven't been given a chance to do to anything yet.Where is this choice?

And yes we get it.We're the root of all past evils ever committed on Bob.

I'm not privy to peace talks not being of upper leadership in any alliance anymore.

However I would assume that the logs posted aren't full, and there's more to them that would indicate a chance for peace. My assumption is that the 30% of NPO that is in peace (compared to the 5% GATO was persecuted over as was indicated by somebody else) coming out of peace was a preliminary term that was given that has been so soundly rejected.

The point is when you're on the losing side you're not in the position to make demands. Unless NPO's members in peace come out there will soon reach a point when their remaining membership is not able to cause significant damage as what's left of warchests get drained and even those with MPs can no longer get their nukes and stay over 1k infra.

When things get to that point it will be interesting to see if NPO is any more willing to conceed to the demands that they exist peace mode or if they will stay there in hopes of one day getting peace with lesser terms.