ChairmanHal's Blog

I've given up with the mods. There are open Ban Appeal tickets from 6+ months ago for former members of the community who haven't had their appeals accepted or rejected.

The mods don't give a damn, Admin doesn't give a damn.

Though, at this point in the game honestly does anyone?

Hate to agree with stewie but this x1000.

I'm confused, someone was deleted for another person in their household having a nation (something the mods say they allowed?

Frankly unless the mods are actually in your house at all times, I don't see how any kind of evidence (including logging in at the same time) could be damning,. Two people decide to play the same game at the same time all of the time in other arenas.

I'm not saying a little transparency wouldnt be good. But unless you think they should just let everyone run as many nations as they want (which has ruined other games in the past) then I don't see how they could handle that too differently. Keeping in mind it's very difficult to detect and they are a small group of volunteers, there would seem to be a very fine line between creating an abusive environment where legitimate players feel threatened and worried and creating an abusive environment where legitimate players cannot compete with the multi rings.

Unfortunately it would seem to be possible to get the worst of both worlds there too - the lack of transparency doesnt guarantee they'll actually be effective at stopping cheating either.

It's really the horns of a dilemma, it's easy to criticize and some criticism is probably warranted but you have to weigh the alternatives as well.

As to forum bans, the original intended topic of conversation, I don't see it as that big a problem. I'm aware of some people that have had that problem, yes, but in every case that I am aware of they were really being idiots and brought it on themselves. I'm not saying the system is perfect I just don't see that as being a major problem at the moment.

Want to be a mod, then you should be a public mod. People will know who you are.

Hell in a ton of games I've played IG mods can't edit nations. They can just warn accounts it will be the admins who do the warning. It would also allow transparency of people being able to face and discuss with their accusers.

I'm confused, someone was deleted for another person in their household having a nation (something the mods say they allowed?

Frankly unless the mods are actually in your house at all times, I don't see how any kind of evidence (including logging in at the same time) could be damning,. Two people decide to play the same game at the same time all of the time in other arenas.

I have no inside knowledge of the detection methods, but I would speculate that more than just your log in credentials gets passed over to the server when you log into to your account. Same goes for the data coming back at you, which probably consists of more than just the content of the web pages.

I'm not saying a little transparency wouldnt be good. But unless you think they should just let everyone run as many nations as they want (which has ruined other games in the past) then I don't see how they could handle that too differently. Keeping in mind it's very difficult to detect and they are a small group of volunteers, there would seem to be a very fine line between creating an abusive environment where legitimate players feel threatened and worried and creating an abusive environment where legitimate players cannot compete with the multi rings.

Unfortunately it would seem to be possible to get the worst of both worlds there too - the lack of transparency doesnt guarantee they'll actually be effective at stopping cheating either.

It's really the horns of a dilemma, it's easy to criticize and some criticism is probably warranted but you have to weigh the alternatives as well.

As to forum bans, the original intended topic of conversation, I don't see it as that big a problem. I'm aware of some people that have had that problem, yes, but in every case that I am aware of they were really being idiots and brought it on themselves. I'm not saying the system is perfect I just don't see that as being a major problem at the moment.

That said above in my comments, I don't want or need to know their detection methods. However, what I need is to be assured that whatever methods they are using don't result in "false positives", such that situations where two people are legitimately playing the game and obeying the rules about nation interaction on the same IP don't get zapped. Statements like "it's more art than science" or "there is an amount subjectivity to the process" should cause you concern. Frankly I'd rather be playing knowing that there are probably a few people running an extra nation than watch honest people being shown the exit.

As for forum bans, your experience may be different, but when I think back to all the people who were "warned out of the game" those that were genuine problems were the exception, not the rule.

Sadly I can relate to this and while Walsh and I were at each other's throats- it's a bummer not having him around. His war propaganda was hilarious and his contributions to the wiki page were outstanding. Having enemies in this game is better than residing around inactive players.

On another note- About 3 months into my CN career I told a friend at work about the game and he joined (he had played similar games in the past) and we had a blast. It made for a great work day because we basically just talked CN all day.

When admin allowed multiple users on the same IP- his daughter created an account- and as the rules stated they had no interaction with each other, no trades, no aid (directly or third party), not even in the same AA- and months later both him and his daughter were banned.

I was pissed and was about to quit the game myself as he and his daughter followed every F*#)#@)^ rule and admin deleted his and her account without even an email stating 'why'. I told him to appeal and he just said 'the hell with it'.

The only reason I am still here is because I've kindled up some great friendships in M Inc.

In short, Admin has done a terrible job following their own rules. They've banned many active players- and the multis used for tech farming (ie war pigs)... well they are all deleted long after the damage is already done and thousands of tech have already been sent out

With the way the ban policies are, It's really deterred me from donating. I was going to do 2 months straight to catch up where I was before the Methrage war. But what's the point? If I went to a coffee shop and some guy was on CN I could be banned with no real explanation needed. I don't know why same IPs for multiple nations waa said to be allowed when it really isn't. You can't even discuss what you can banned for without getting warned which can lead up to a ban. Which is stupid. It's also why I don't donate.

^That.

Having quite a bit of my own money these days, I was actually going to donate versus a year or two ago. I really don't want to though.

Well! The tales I could tell.

Schatt tells the best tales.

Rota didn't get banned for upwards of a week after posting porn on the forums.

Everyone else gets banned for letting someone in their household play after the rules were relaxed specifically to allow that.

I was banned back in 08-12 for having multi nations, but I also had five nations from 07-09. Even on the same network, you could have multi nations. It's a joke that moderation even considers banning people for multi nations, as it's so easy to multi. Have a phone? a gaming system with access to internet? Tablet? Desktop? Laptop? There's five nations right there.

Moderation can not stop anyone from multi'ing. That they think they can is sad, see Rota, War Pigs, FFC, and other AA's throughout the history of the game that have been years old before they were deleted for multi's.

I have no inside knowledge of the detection methods, but I would speculate that more than just your log in credentials gets passed over to the server when you log into to your account. Same goes for the data coming back at you, which probably consists of more than just the content of the web pages.

That said above in my comments, I don't want or need to know their detection methods. However, what I need is to be assured that whatever methods they are using don't result in "false positives", such that situations where two people are legitimately playing the game and obeying the rules about nation interaction on the same IP don't get zapped. Statements like "it's more art than science" or "there is an amount subjectivity to the process" should cause you concern. Frankly I'd rather be playing knowing that there are probably a few people running an extra nation than watch honest people being shown the exit.

As for forum bans, your experience may be different, but when I think back to all the people who were "warned out of the game" those that were genuine problems were the exception, not the rule.

A lot of what you are saying here is why I was like, "either a) tell us more about the methods so we can believe that you know beyond a reasonable doubt, or b) set up an appeals process that is simple for nations affected by this."

Because I cannot for the life of me figure out a way they could possibly know with such certainty that someone was breaking this rule without physically witnessing them do it.

Not to mention with the new inactive rule, they should place the nations in inactive mode instead of outright delete them. It is honestly as if the admin/mods are trying to kill CN earlier than it could die on its own.

Because people are using the whole "spouse/"sibling" rule to make more multi's then use the excuse it's not the same person, it's my wife or brother or something else. Is in some instances this likely true, yes, but I bet in more instances then not, it's the same person using two nations.

I made my point known when this whole new rule was talked about, and then introduced. I knew it would become what it was, where it pretty much allows everyone to have a multi and claim it's a family member. I do not claim to know the admin's ways of proving someone a multi or an actual other family member, but honestly, I don't see how you can possibly tell the difference. Thus, now most people are banned if reported that someone has two nations on 1 IP, be it legitimate or not.

There's only really 3 options, either return to the former rule where there is only 1 allowed nation on an IP, allow up to a certain on one IP (knowing people will make multi's, and some will be true but unable to determine the legitimacy), or 3, just let people do as they please and make as many nations on 1 IP as they please. I personally think it was a dumb idea when they made this new rule, and argued it shouldn't be introduced. There's no clear way to determine the legitimacy of a claim it's someone's family or not in the same house or someone just having two nations.

Not only that, but all the alliances proven to be multi's who were made to send out free tech mostly just got deleted, and the people receiving the tech wasn't even punished by either a ban, or removal of all the tech that was sent to them from those nations. Sure, I am not saying just ban someone who received aid from a multi as some may not know, but there's been plenty of instances that it's pretty clear that certain nations were obviously part of the whole multi ring and were the ones benefiting from the tech sent to them before the ban. So what does that really do.....force someone to go about making more multi's and doing the same....not that bad of a deal when they already profited months of free tech before the multi ring was actually removed.

I thought and still think it should of remained 1 nation per IP, and unfortunately that would effect people truely having two people on the same IP wanting to play, but would simply cut down on the instances of multi's as well as trying to determine if it's a multi or not.

I have no inside knowledge of the detection methods, but I would speculate that more than just your log in credentials gets passed over to the server when you log into to your account. Same goes for the data coming back at you, which probably consists of more than just the content of the web pages.

That said above in my comments, I don't want or need to know their detection methods. However, what I need is to be assured that whatever methods they are using don't result in "false positives", such that situations where two people are legitimately playing the game and obeying the rules about nation interaction on the same IP don't get zapped. Statements like "it's more art than science" or "there is an amount subjectivity to the process" should cause you concern. Frankly I'd rather be playing knowing that there are probably a few people running an extra nation than watch honest people being shown the exit.

As for forum bans, your experience may be different, but when I think back to all the people who were "warned out of the game" those that were genuine problems were the exception, not the rule.

Once again, if there is one computer in the household, or even two -- if people are sharing it it's really not that uncommon.

I'm really having a hard time justifying any moderation action on that basis or any basis. "HEY I NEED HELP ON MY NATION, HERE LET ME LOG OUT OF MINE REAL QUICK AND WE'LL LOOK AT YOURS."

Even if mac/ip/et al are all the same, there is literally no way you can prove even a preponderance of evidence that I think by opening that pandora's box the moderation owes the users they administrate before terminating them for a rule they essentially changed from black and white to gray.

Because people are using the whole "spouse/"sibling" rule to make more multi's then use the excuse it's not the same person, it's my wife or brother or something else. Is in some instances this likely true, yes, but I bet in more instances then not, it's the same person using two nations.

I made my point known when this whole new rule was talked about, and then introduced. I knew it would become what it was, where it pretty much allows everyone to have a multi and claim it's a family member. I do not claim to know the admin's ways of proving someone a multi or an actual other family member, but honestly, I don't see how you can possibly tell the difference. Thus, now most people are banned if reported that someone has two nations on 1 IP, be it legitimate or not.

There's only really 3 options, either return to the former rule where there is only 1 allowed nation on an IP, allow up to a certain on one IP (knowing people will make multi's, and some will be true but unable to determine the legitimacy), or 3, just let people do as they please and make as many nations on 1 IP as they please. I personally think it was a dumb idea when they made this new rule, and argued it shouldn't be introduced. There's no clear way to determine the legitimacy of a claim it's someone's family or not in the same house or someone just having two nations.

Not only that, but all the alliances proven to be multi's who were made to send out free tech mostly just got deleted, and the people receiving the tech wasn't even punished by either a ban, or removal of all the tech that was sent to them from those nations. Sure, I am not saying just ban someone who received aid from a multi as some may not know, but there's been plenty of instances that it's pretty clear that certain nations were obviously part of the whole multi ring and were the ones benefiting from the tech sent to them before the ban. So what does that really do.....force someone to go about making more multi's and doing the same....not that bad of a deal when they already profited months of free tech before the multi ring was actually removed.

I thought and still think it should of remained 1 nation per IP, and unfortunately that would effect people truely having two people on the same IP wanting to play, but would simply cut down on the instances of multi's as well as trying to determine if it's a multi or not.

I totally and wholeheartedly agree with everything said here -- it's really a problem the admin/mods made for themselves and the onus shouldn't be on folks who are utilizing the rule (unless proven beyond a shadow of a doubt they're breaking it ** something you'll never convince me of even if you document them logging on immediately after one another,) to prove they're not breaking it, because it was made legal.

I totally and wholeheartedly agree with everything said here -- it's really a problem the admin/mods made for themselves and the onus shouldn't be on folks who are utilizing the rule (unless proven beyond a shadow of a doubt they're breaking it ** something you'll never convince me of even if you document them logging on immediately after one another,) to prove they're not breaking it, because it was made legal.

And that's the problem. They made a new rule knowing that there was literally no way to really determine the legitimacy if it was two different people, or 1 person playing on two nations. Sure, there are some signs it's likely the same person, as in one logging in right after the other....but even that could be a husband getting on, then letting their wife sit down and login to theirs. I can't honestly see anyway they can determine the difference besides purely speculation and one's assumption. As mentioned, sure there has been instances where a new alliance of new nations are made and you can easily spot that they were made to send aid/tech to a certain nation/nations and are blatantly obvious multis....but as I said, in most cases the person benefiting from that wasn't even punished. If not a ban, giving the benefit of the doubt the person receiving the aid didn't know, they should certainly have all the tech they earned removed from them.

I look at people posting ban appeals from the past months since the new rule was put into place, all claiming it was a family member that started to play, and by the new rule change, should be allowed. Most responses were either "you know it was the same person," or no response to their appeal at all. I for one would like to see all the multi's removed from the game, however the introduction of allowing more then 1 nation per IP has now left it up to the discretion of the admin staff to decide if it's true or not, which I can't see how they can possibly know without physically being at their house to see. Now, it's purely a risk game for the people who truly have two people in the same household wanting to play, as they could login too quickly from one another or something that might seem odd, and now they're both banned.

I was against the inactivity mode, mainly because I saw it as a way for people to dodge a war, but I at least saw the merit in it, plus I know many instances people had their nation deleted because something came up or wasn't able to log in, and then never came back because they didn't want to start all over. However, the rule change for nations on 1 IP i don't think was really that huge of a problem to begin with. I really don't think the amount of people not being able to play because someone else in the household already did was large enough to put into a place the headache that now as consumed the game, which is deciding if someone is a multi or not without physically being there to see. It merely opened up the game to be exploited easily, and no way to truly know besides a few obvious cases.

That's why either you go back to the old rule and make it simple, more then 1 nation on a IP = Banned, or you just don't do anything anymore to anyone besides blatantly obvious multi's, and realize you are letting anyone have as many nations as they please.

Ok so it seems we all more or less agree...now what?

It all gets ignored by the mods.

Anyone else notice this? SMH Yes yes less transparency is going to make things better.

Changes to the Moderation Reporting Forums

As a note to preface this thread, this thread is ONLY to announce the changes made to the report forums and any questions pertaining to such changes. Any other post that strays from that topic and/or discussion in regards to other moderation topics will receive a full warn for the violation.

All the forums under this main forum are now set up that when a person makes a report or request, such as warn level reductions or being unbanned, only the player and moderators can see the thread and discussion.

The pinned threads have been moved over to forum announcements located at the top of each area.

This will help assist in de-politicizing moderation and reports as well as allow players to post without interference from others.

As a reminder, players may still also feel free to message privately any moderator.