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Seriously...

ChairmanHal

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Banning people from Cyber Nations for forums violations at this stage of the game is about like drilling holes in the bottom of a boat that's already taking on water.

If you want to make the "rules are the rules" argument, please explain how banning your most active players (people who are inactive don't get players ratting them out for forum violations) increases interest and activity in the game and how it increases the number of players.

I grant you that people who do really, really stupid things like posting porn images or real life phone numbers of people should probably get banned from the forums and the game. But to delete nations and ban people for what amounts to a collection of ticky-tack violations? Really?

Something has to change.



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Seeing as the policy of not banning people on that basis was what outraged the community just about a year ago with Rotavele, I don't see that there really could be a right side on this issue.

Ninja Edit: If you want to go into the "multi, not multi" debate, there are two main points I'd make:

  • If you're cheating with only two nations, you're not gaining enough to justify the risk and the headache.
  • If you're cheating on a large scale, you're going to be caught, so you're not gaining enough to justify the risk and the headache.
I don't think anyone can dispute that. So, now that it's clear that anyone who does legitimately cheat would be an idiot, why are we clamping down on small scale "cheaters" like they are the Hitler reincarnate? I don't think there is a clear indicator - aside from consistently and always logging in one after the other - that would ever be a real proof that the nations were controlled by one user in a world where IP checks aren't a thing. As far as similar builds or similar actions, you have to assume that this is one old player introducing a new player, who is likely going to share their knowledge and advice with the other. So it seems that apart from the log in times, an educated guess is all that the mods really have left. Are they making a guess that this person is a cheater based on a bunch of circumstantial evidence, or are they assuming they are cheating because there are two nations and they are an idiot? Apparently we'll never know, and it doesn't really matter for those of us who don't take advantage of the new multi rules, but it is a fun thought experiment.

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Bummer, Walsh amused me. :(

I find it somewhat unlikely the Staff would ban him simply for having a 2nd nation, it's probably because they were interacting with each other (through trades or tech deals), and that is where you really get in trouble.

(Could be wrong tho, haven't seen any evidence one way or another)

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I agree, the mods are erring on the side of even a shred of suspicion = multi. And warning those who discuss moderation issues when all they're doing is asking legitimate questions about how rules are enforced, and maybe making the not unreasonable claim that they are being enforced too harshly and not fairly, is just plain dumb.

And there's also this. Seriously warning someone for having a lowercase character rather than an uppercase one is Kafkaesque, we're talking actual insanity here.

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I've given up with the mods. There are open Ban Appeal tickets from 6+ months ago for former members of the community who haven't had their appeals accepted or rejected.

The mods don't give a damn, Admin doesn't give a damn.

Though, at this point in the game honestly does anyone?

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I agree, the mods are erring on the side of even a shred of suspicion = multi. And warning those who discuss moderation issues when all they're doing is asking legitimate questions about how rules are enforced, and maybe making the not unreasonable claim that they are being enforced too harshly and not fairly, is just plain dumb.

And there's also this. Seriously warning someone for having a lowercase character rather than an uppercase one is Kafkaesque, we're talking actual insanity here.

I was going to cite that as an example of what merits a warn, and if we're handing them out over such technicalities, then there isn't much of a case against a fair number of people who end up getting banned.

As for Walsh, I've heard two different stories now regarding the reason he was banned. Putting his case aside, I'm sure we all know someone who in the past has been banned for forum violations, that ban was unjustified, and when they left the game at least one other person followed them out the door.

I repeat, something has to change.

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Doesn't mean it still can't happen. :-)

However, I'd like to think that "away from the table" here and in full view of everyone we can discuss a perceived problem like adults.

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I had an account here around....2 years ago? Ish. The community seemed very alive and the game felt alive.

Coming back, it's like the afterglow of a nuclear bomb; still alive, but fading fast. And there really isn't any other nation-builder out there, working, that I can move to.

It's CN or bust. And CN seems to be going bust. :(

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I had an account here around....2 years ago? Ish. The community seemed very alive and the game felt alive. Coming back, it's like the afterglow of a nuclear bomb; still alive, but fading fast. And there really isn't any other nation-builder out there, working, that I can move to. It's CN or bust. And CN seems to be going bust. :(

P&W is a great alternative to CN, better war mechanics, better econ mechanics, and an admin team that actually gives a damn. I play both, but I mostly play CN still because of the community in my alliance and I've been playing long enough it sort of has its own inertia.

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I agree, the mods are erring on the side of even a shred of suspicion = multi. And warning those who discuss moderation issues when all they're doing is asking legitimate questions about how rules are enforced, and maybe making the not unreasonable claim that they are being enforced too harshly and not fairly, is just plain dumb.

And there's also this. Seriously warning someone for having a lowercase character rather than an uppercase one is Kafkaesque, we're talking actual insanity here.

In fairness, I wasn't warned for that thread, but I'm sure if I posted another, asking a related question, I would be.

Keelah's response was pretty much the same bs they keep saying when someone asks about how they determine that. "It has to be apparent."

Apparent to whom? And what defines apparent? And since when does apparent = beyond a doubt?

Finally, why are they so adamant to refuse hearing out evidence of innocence.

In the case of Walsh, per Xanth (who said he has seen the email from admin himself), Walsh was banned for operating multiple nations, and when Walsh offered to provide evidence the nations were operated by two separate people, he was apparently (see - apparent =/= certainty because I have not seen the communications myself) told he had to wait 6 months to appeal the ban.

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In fairness, I wasn't warned for that thread, but I'm sure if I posted another, asking a related question, I would be.

Keelah's response was pretty much the same bs they keep saying when someone asks about how they determine that. "It has to be apparent."

Apparent to whom? And what defines apparent? And since when does apparent = beyond a doubt?

Finally, why are they so adamant to refuse hearing out evidence of innocence.

In the case of Walsh, per Xanth (who said he has seen the email from admin himself), Walsh was banned for operating multiple nations, and when Walsh offered to provide evidence the nations were operated by two separate people, he was apparently (see - apparent =/= certainty because I have not seen the communications myself) told he had to wait 6 months to appeal the ban.

If that is in fact true, I'd love to hear the evidence for "the prosecution", because without it that sounds like another case of a player being kicked not for a serious violation per se, but merely because he is perceived of as a problem...but a problem to who exactly?

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It was always excessive and its took you this long to work it out ChairmanHal?...

As for the multiple nations from a single IP comments, the community wanted and welcomed it and that was always going to be an accident waiting to happen for those whose spouse/siblings that practiced it.

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I agree, the mods are erring on the side of even a shred of suspicion = multi.

I disagree. There is massive multi cheating going on, but if you engage in politics on the forums ( hard not to for a political simulator ) all it takes is a couple of accusations and poof you go away.

We commonly use the mods to fight our wars for us - pissant squabbles routinely end up in the whining pit of game or forum abuse - there is no doubt there is much more private complaining to the mods from all the cowards.

If you engage in forum conversations it is not a question of if. It is a question of when the inevitable warnings will hit you. I didn't post much at all for years just because the mods are such touchy folks - now that the game is dead my concerns have faded away.

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If we are sharing stories, a former CCCer and ESL came to these very forums to submit a request to correct the spelling on his misspelled ruler name. He was banned from the forum for no matching ruler name...

At any rate, I agree things needs to lighten up just a tad. This is supposed to be a fun place. I won't dare say the forbidden word, though, that's how I got my last warn. We are probably all going to get one more for discussing moderation issues...to which I would argue, this is a membership issue, with moderation. ;-)

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Who are you talking about Hal?

I am aware of two recent bannings, both for cheating, not for accumulating too many 'ticky-tacky forum violations.'

The situation with Walsh brought back memories of players past that were banned and deleted for forum violations. Initially I was under the impression that Walsh was one of them as well, but that turns out not to be the case. However, anyone who spends a lot of time on here commenting and particularly if they do so in a manner that some people don't like for IC reasons, can suddenly find themselves a frequent "topic" in Moderation. That is as true today as it was in 2007 when forum ban = game ban took effect.

It was always excessive and its took you this long to work it out ChairmanHal?...

As for the multiple nations from a single IP comments, the community wanted and welcomed it and that was always going to be an accident waiting to happen for those whose spouse/siblings that practiced it.

I came to this position years ago, actually.

Essentially having two nations on the same IP would seem to put you in a Sword of Damocles scenario, where at any moment both nations could be deleted without recourse. Even if that isn't true, the perception it is true turns a lot people away from the game and makes players think twice about sharing it with others. Pity.

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Let's be honest, the mods of this game have hurt more than they have helped going way back to 2007. It's a major flaw in this game, and a major reason as to why are down to less then 7800 nations.

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