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Cruel and Unusual Punishment


HeroofTime55

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Lets say you were convicted of a crime - Regardless of your guilt or innocence, the jury has convicted you, and now you must be sentenced.

If given a choice between 10 years and 10 lashes, which would you choose?

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Of course I'll take the 10 leashes, even if the alternative would be just 1 year in prison. But that's not the real point of the OP...

The relevant point here is, in a civilized, modern society, the objective of the penal system isn't to punish neither to avenge. it's objective is to rehabilitate and, in the meantime, protect the citizens from dangerous criminals.

Physical punishment only accomplishes the objectives of a savage, outdated sense of "justice" (punishment and revenge), but is not at all a valid method to accomplish the objectives of a modern, civilized sense of justice (prevent and restore).

And this is why nowadays, people find the idea of physical punishment abhorrent.

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Jail as a punishment or a correction method (what would be the difference?) makes little sense to me. Imprisonment may be good to keep the criminal and the society safe while the criminal is rehabilitated (if that's possible), but it's a stupid way to punish/redeem.

In other words, I am not sure that both choices are actually "punishment".

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Ok gotcha HOT.

Well my main priority would be #1 protecting the community. So in that mind does the punishment deter anti-social actions? Obviously being locked in a cage deters them while your in the cage as society doesn't have to deal with you, but there is always concerns when people's time is up and you may or may not realise the crazy child killer isn't actually a changed man, just an older crazier bastard now ready to go out!

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Of course I'll take the 10 leashes, even if the alternative would be just 1 year in prison. But that's not the real point of the OP...

The relevant point here is, in a civilized, modern society, the objective of the penal system isn't to punish neither to avenge. it's objective is to rehabilitate and, in the meantime, protect the citizens from dangerous criminals.

Physical punishment only accomplishes the objectives of a savage, outdated sense of "justice" (punishment and revenge), but is not at all a valid method to accomplish the objectives of a modern, civilized sense of justice (prevent and restore).

And this is why nowadays, people find the idea of physical punishment abhorrent.

I think rehabilitation should be a goal of the prison system, but I think you are wrong that prison is only meant to rehabilitate or protect citizens. The justice system is about punishment, plain and simple. In the beginning of law, back in the bronze age, there were only 3 punishments, fines, mutilation and execution. What nowadays you would go to prison for, back then they just took a piece from you, your hand, your leg, your eye, your balls. Anything more serious than that, they took your head. This was back in the day when this was the civilized part of society, if you were an enemy of the state they wouldn't just quietly lop your head off, oh no, if you were a rebel leader or something you were tortured to death and then dismembered and buried in different parts of the country.

I think the USA has no faith in the law anymore. Vigilante justice has been legalized in a lot of states (Stand Your Ground) in the belief that the justice system doesn't punish criminals, just locks them in "Convict University" where they learn to be better criminals, get recruited into gangs and get involved in more violent (and more profitable) crimes. The USA locks up more people in prison per capita than any country on earth including North Korea.

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I think rehabilitation should be a goal of the prison system, but I think you are wrong that prison is only meant to rehabilitate or protect citizens. The justice system is about punishment, plain and simple. In the beginning of law, back in the bronze age, there were only 3 punishments, fines, mutilation and execution. What nowadays you would go to prison for, back then they just took a piece from you, your hand, your leg, your eye, your balls. Anything more serious than that, they took your head. This was back in the day when this was the civilized part of society, if you were an enemy of the state they wouldn't just quietly lop your head off, oh no, if you were a rebel leader or something you were tortured to death and then dismembered and buried in different parts of the country.

I think the USA has no faith in the law anymore. Vigilante justice has been legalized in a lot of states (Stand Your Ground) in the belief that the justice system doesn't punish criminals, just locks them in "Convict University" where they learn to be better criminals, get recruited into gangs and get involved in more violent (and more profitable) crimes. The USA locks up more people in prison per capita than any country on earth including North Korea.

A whole lot of this. But you also have to take into account the Prison Industrial Complex we have here in the States (responsible for our insane incarceration rate). People aren't sent to jail to be rehabilitated. They're sent because private prison companies make money for every prisoner they house. They couldn't care less what the prisoners do in there, they just want more prisoners.

It's noble to speak of things like "rehabilitation," but that is so far removed from the reality of our prison state.

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Lashes all the way. Bear it like a man and get back to your life, rather then miss a big chunk of it? You'll be recovered in a couple/few weeks, tops, weeks is better then years.

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A whole lot of this. But you also have to take into account the Prison Industrial Complex we have here in the States (responsible for our insane incarceration rate). People aren't sent to jail to be rehabilitated. They're sent because private prison companies make money for every prisoner they house. They couldn't care less what the prisoners do in there, they just want more prisoners.

It's noble to speak of things like "rehabilitation," but that is so far removed from the reality of our prison state.

Nobody has ever or will ever be "rehabilitated" just by being caged, it would be folly to expect that the average person will improve themselves just because they can't go anywhere for a short/long time.

Modern "prison" systems aim, at least in principle, to avoid actual imprisonment unless it's necessary for security reasons, and they focus on redeeming the criminal instead. Imprisonment is left for when you have no alternative way to prevent that the criminal harms other innocent people.

My comment/objection is thus that with your entry you're comparing imprisonment (which is a security measure*) with lashes (which are punishment). The former is a necessary evil (to protect the outside people) while the latter is a pointless exercise meant to "teach" not to break the law.

At a certain extent it's like one compared ritual genitals mutilations and clinical amputation of both legs against gangrene, and then implied that it's hypocrite to condemn the first because we accept the second, where the amputation is more severe.

* Then you have the real prison systems, of course, and there you have a point (but not in principle).

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I wonder sometimes if this idea of "protecting" society has simply made it much weaker. After all, people in the Hood tend to be alot tougher by necessity, than middle class suburb types. Its not like there was a huge prison industry before the drug war.

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A whole lot of this. But you also have to take into account the Prison Industrial Complex we have here in the States (responsible for our insane incarceration rate). People aren't sent to jail to be rehabilitated. They're sent because private prison companies make money for every prisoner they house. They couldn't care less what the prisoners do in there, they just want more prisoners.

It's noble to speak of things like "rehabilitation," but that is so far removed from the reality of our prison state.

I've always thought the private prison companies should be paid a double bonus for every prisoner, released that doesn't end up back in jail in the 10 years that follow their release.

Businesses understand profit. If you create some form of commission directly connected to how well you rehabilitate your prisoners perhaps they would rework their model to cash in on it. As it stands right now the prison companies are actually profiting from prisoners that rebound straight back into jail. In effect they are rewarded for encouraging crims to get worse under their care! crazy but true

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