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From: Waking my inner Reaver (AKA, another blog from Nintenderek about Vox Populi)


Nintenderek

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It has only been suspended. Never forget that.

I think its been made clear that vox will only ever be an anti-NPO movement and cared more about hurting that alliance than freedom. I think every member was someone that came up against NPO in the old days and lost. I doubt you will have popular support next time because your message of fighting oppression is a lie. Your true message is we hate NPO.

Source: Waking my inner Reaver

So I was reading the CN forums today, and came across this quote and I wanted to address it. However, I felt the particular thread that it was in was not quite the place for it, and so here I am at 43 minutes after update, writing a blog about Vox Populi again. While I'm sure many people are just plain tired of the subject (after four years of it popping up at least once a month, I'm sure I would be too) I happened to be in Vox through out it's entire life time, and I'd like to think I might know something about it. Of course, if you are one of those people whom are tired of reading about Vox or seeing threads or blogs about it, you are more than welcome to click that little x at the top of the tab and exit out of this particular blog entry. It's your decision.

First off, Vox was not an Anti-NPO movement. In fact, this was made clear even in the introduction topic.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=30981

The first two alliances declared war upon were GGA and Valhalla. It's true, we declared war on "all others who seek to crush freedom, and those who force you to live in fear," which at the time in the context that Starfox was speaking in, would indeed include NPO. However, we didn't even actually start actual combat with the NPO until NPO made an announcement about how they were outlawing the rebels known as Vox Populi, or something along those lines. I was unable to find the actual announcement.

The second part was also quite untrue. Not every member of Vox Populi had fought against NPO and lost. Of our well known members, the best one to name would be Schattenmann, whom never faced down NPO until Vox Populi. Another prominent member, Chunky_Monkey was a former GOONS member, whom had also never been declared on by NPO. There were also several other members, most of which I don't remember by name that had never cared about NPO in any way. Many members of Vox Populi had different reasons for joining. Some did indeed do it for revenge against NPO, and many of them happen to be a part of alliances in the current hegemony Some people did it for their friends. Some people joined because they wanted vengeance against other alliances in the hegemony such as TPF, Valhalla or more popularly, GGA. Many joined because they were tired of being oppressed. Their ability to speak their mind was being forced away by them, and joining Vox Populi gave true political freedom. And then of course, some peopled joined just because they were bored. But what Vox wasn't, was full of NPO haters. You heard us speak mostly of NPO because they were the driving force behind the hegemony. They were what held it all together. It was only natural to speak of them the most.

As for the third part, I'll state it again, our goal was to fight oppression and there was no lie about that. If you don't believe me, you can read the membership's reasons themselves, word for word, with the reasons why they fought.

In conclusion, the topic of Vox Populi is starting to tire even me. It amazes me that still, to this day, 4 years later, that anyone would still try to debate our reasons for Vox Populi's existence. We had given you all of our reasons on a silver platter, yet you still debate them?

And I will re-emphasis what Starfox said. Vox Populi never truely disbanded, it only had a charter suspension. That charter can be re-enacted at any point. However, regardless of what many may think or say, now is not the time nor place, and anyone who thinks it is, or has been at any point in the last four years, does not truly understand what made Vox Populi so successful. Hopefully, this may be able to help open some eyes to that.

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Years of silence despite some serious crimes against alliances by the likes of GOONS,GOD & MK. Yet NPO make one vague thread and out comes former Vox to say we are ready for you if we dont like your actions.

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He's pretty clearly calling into question your silence over the past year, which would be hypocritical.

You wrote a lot of words but did little to address this fact.

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Years of silence despite some serious crimes against alliances by the likes of GOONS,GOD & MK. Yet NPO make one vague thread and out comes former Vox to say we are ready for you if we dont like your actions.

Except I don't remember reading any former Vox members state anything about being ready for NPO's action or w/e. All I saw was Starfox making a small comment that could have been directed at any number of alliances. And yes, those alliances have made some serious crimes against other alliances, but nothing like the hegemony of old. And it hasn't been years of silence. Many former Vox members have spoken up against those actions in the last several years, and many more are returning now to speak up against them now.

He's pretty clearly calling into question your silence over the past year, which would be hypocritical.

You wrote a lot of words but did little to address this fact.

Except we haven't been as silent as you like to think. As stated, former Vox Members have spoken up and more are continuing to come back to the game and speak up now. My question, is why we are the only ones expected to speak up against it? Anyone can speak up against the voices of oppression to do the right thing, yet somehow only Vox Populi is ever expected to? That is the hypocrisy of this entire situation.

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Vox built up an entire infrastructure dedicated to targeting the NPO. It's nice and all to talk about other alliances who were targeted, but the overwhelming majority of your efforts were against the New Pacific Order.

After Karma, and our other losses, we don't hear much out of Vox. Sure, y'all make posts every now and again, and a few of your individual members make statements against some injustice you decry, but I don't see your newspapers, I don't see spies infiltrating other alliances, I don't see scoops against other alliances.

You were always a group against the NPO. Whoever you might be against now, or whatever morality you currently espouse, you do not prosecute that crusade with a tenth of the effort you did against the NPO. That's why you're getting called out and why you will continue to get called out.

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I think the problem with Vox's silence as of now is that their conflicting opinions have lead them to different areas. I beileve there was a post done by nintenderk himself explaining how Vox had several conflicting opinons, but they all agreed on one thing: taking down the oppressive forces of the day.

People like Schatt, Nintenderk, Starfox, and Doitzel(?) have spoken out against the current power structure.

Then those like Rebel Virinia, Kingzog, CSM, and Cheyenne have mocked people speaking out against the power structure.

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Vox built up an entire infrastructure dedicated to targeting the NPO. It's nice and all to talk about other alliances who were targeted, but the overwhelming majority of your efforts were against the New Pacific Order.

After Karma, and our other losses, we don't hear much out of Vox. Sure, y'all make posts every now and again, and a few of your individual members make statements against some injustice you decry, but I don't see your newspapers, I don't see spies infiltrating other alliances, I don't see scoops against other alliances.

You were always a group against the NPO. Whoever you might be against now, or whatever morality you currently espouse, you do not prosecute that crusade with a tenth of the effort you did against the NPO. That's why you're getting called out and why you will continue to get called out.

While I can admit, that typically This Week in Pacifica was obviously aimed at Pacifica, saying that a overwhelming majority of our efforts were aimed at NPO is simply not true. In fact, I don't remember that many Tattler issues aimed at the NPO, and I certainly remember a majority of of efforts were aimed more at TPF/Valhalla/GGA. Obviously, NPO had it's moments in the spot light due to this week in Pacifica, but I remember even several issues of those were dedicated to other alliances and Pacificans would complain because of it. A couple of links I'd like to mention at this point.

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/The_Tattler/Bastion

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/The_Tattler/Operation_KILLDOZER

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/The_Tattler/%E2%80%9CI_OBJECT.%E2%80%9D

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/The_Tattler/The_Song_Remains_The_Same

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/The_Tattler/Sound_And_Fury

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/The_Tattler/Slouching_Toward_Francograd

That is every issue of the Tattler, only the last two of which mention the NPO at all.

I'll admit, it might seem like Vox got on NPO the most because NPO was the biggest alliance at the time. It was the powerhouse behind the hegemony of the time, however Vox went after all the alliances of the hegemony, not just NPO and stating that Vox was only an anti-NPO movement is totally inaccurate.

I think the problem with Vox's silence as of now is that their conflicting opinions have lead them to different areas. I beileve there was a post done by nintenderk himself explaining how Vox had several conflicting opinons, but they all agreed on one thing: taking down the oppressive forces of the day.

People like Schatt, Nintenderk, Starfox, and Doitzel(?) have spoken out against the current power structure.

Then those like Rebel Virinia, Kingzog, CSM, and Cheyenne have mocked people speaking out against the power structure.

This is true. It's also mentioned in my blog.

Many members of Vox Populi had different reasons for joining. Some did indeed do it for revenge against NPO, and many of them happen to be a part of alliances in the current hegemony

And I admit, there were members like that, but that is not to state Vox Populi as a whole was that kind of movement. You also mentioned Doitzel. Another big problem with why you don't see many former Vox members speak out against the current hegemony is because there quite frankly aren't many of us left. Vox Populi was the most fun most of us had in this game. There's nothing that can quite compare to it. When the Vox charter was suspended, many (including myself) just got bored and stopped playing. But I assure you, many of those people would be voicing their opinions now if they were still playing and since I remember a lot of the conversations had on the forums and IRC, I'm sure many of them would be disappointed to see how the world currently is.

The point is, Vox Populi was never strictly an anti NPO movement and to state that is to misunderstand the point of our movement completely. Yes, some members of Vox Populi didn't like NPO, but that was because they were leading the oppression taking place. Our message of fighting oppression was never a lie and the majority of the Vox members left today continue to speak out against it today.

You know what's really funny though? You mentioned Schatt, me, Starfox and Doitzel being people who have spoken out against the current power structure. While I myself was not a founder, I joined Vox Populi the day it started. Those others were founders. They were also all members of Vox Populi for the entire existence of the alliance. Of the people you mentioned that have mocked people speaking out against the current power structure, RV, Kingzog and Cheyenne all surrendered within 3-6 months of the war starting. CSM was only there for the last 3-4. Those people left because they realized that Vox Populi wasn't the anti NPO movement that they were looking for.

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So I have to ask, because I understand your point. Do you not see the only reason you had traction for Vox was indeed the NPO? Proof of this exists in two forms:

1. You never did anything again regardless of oppression that rose to power.

2. People start speaking Vox again when the NPO makes moves some consider threatening (boggle).

Regardless of what it means to you Nintenderek, I believe you are a mass minority. Since it has been so long I am not sure you can even, just by yourself, say what it means as if it is the only meaning/reason.

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So I have to ask, because I understand your point. Do you not see the only reason you had traction for Vox was indeed the NPO? Proof of this exists in two forms:

1. You never did anything again regardless of oppression that rose to power.

2. People start speaking Vox again when the NPO makes moves some consider threatening (boggle).

Regardless of what it means to you Nintenderek, I believe you are a mass minority. Since it has been so long I am not sure you can even, just by yourself, say what it means as if it is the only meaning/reason.

NPO was part of the reason we had traction for Vox, but not the only. Would Vox Populi have existed with out the NPO? In all honesty, it's hard to tell. Many of the Vox founders were indeed personally affected by the NPO in a way for them to become Vox founders, and the few that weren't were affected in directly by the influence NPO had on it's allies at the time. I'd like to think Vox Populi would have been able to exist even with out NPO having existed at the time, but with out NPO at the time, it's difficult to know if there would have even needed to be a reason, since NPO is what held the hegemony of the time together. But yes, I admit a major part of the reason we had traction for Vox Populi was NPO. However, it was not the only reason and just to right against NPO was not the main reason a majority of the alliance fought. As for your proof in two forms,

1. I admit this is true, however not because of what oppression. This has more to do with the who than the what, and the timing. For an entity such as Vox Populi to exist, it has to have the right people behind it. No one individual has been greatly affected by the current hegemony such as people like Doitzel and Starfox were affected by the previous hegemony. Because of this, no one person has the drive or influence for such an alliance to exist. Let's face it, people like Electron Sponge and Doitzel were quite popular in the community and because the Vox Populi announcements had their signatures attached to them, more people read them.

Another thing to note is that Vox Populi hasn't done anything regardless of what oppression rose to power against anyone, including NPO. This is for a lot of reasons, as I've stated, including but not limited to the fact that a lot of former Vox members, just aren't on Planet Bob anymore.

This also helps prove a point I've made in the past about the current hegemony not being as bad as the previous. They haven't ticked anyone off enough to get them to that driving point. For Vox Populi to exist and to be successful, the timing and people involve have to be just right, and so far, the correct time just plain hasn't happened yet. People have to get to that breaking point, and people haven't gotten there yet. When the timing is right and the people are ready, I'm sure Vox Populi, or an entity similar will rise to represent the people against the forces of tyranny that oppresses them.

2. This I can't debate and quite frankly, I'm not quite sure why it's the case. However, I do know it's never former Vox Populi members that bring it up. While I'm sure that means very little, I stand by my point. Vox Populi was never meant solely as a movement against NPO. If it was, you wouldn't have people like Starfox and I telling these people it wasn't every time they ask for Vox Populi to rise again against NPO.

Heck, maybe I am a mass minority, but I know most of the Vox Populi members I've talked to since I've returned to activity within the game, have stated their opinions against the current hegemony. A majority of them are the few people left on Planet Bob who were in Vox Populi from the day it started, to the day it ended, and regardless of what the world may think, I know how those former members think about it. Now, I know there are former Vox members who's opinions differ from mine, most of which are now in the current hegemony. A funny thing about that is that I have not been in contact with any of them since I came back and a majority of them left Vox Populi at some point or another because Vox Populi was not anti NPO enough for them.

So yes, I understand why one might think Vox Populi was solely an anti NPO movement, but I also know that's just not the case. Right now is just not the time, and it's not the same conditions that lead to Vox Populi in the first place.

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Nintandarek:

It's fine and all to ague that your movement was against "conditions" or that only certain "conditions" lead to Vox, but it's all a very self-defeating and circular argument.

Your whole argument is pretty much: Vox wasn't an anti-NPO movement, but we would only exist if certain conditions brought us forth, and the only time those conditions have ever been was this one time the NPO was powerful.

And that, of course, is fine and all. That's your right, and long ago did I discard the naïveté that lead me to believe that people would be forthright after why they acted or did things. Perhaps that existed in the earlier ages of Bob, but not now. But of course, it explains why we see so much of this Vox-like sentiment aimed against Pacifica: old reflexes are hard to kick, eh?

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NPO were at the top of the pecking order in 2008. They were the main bad guys or antagonists, if you will. The various blocs at that time were arranged in such a way that NPO had their fingers in a lot of pies. So NPO had their circle of close allies who, while having a nice cushy position near the top, were dependent on NPO for political power: see IRON, GGA, MCXA, etc. This state of affairs was carefully cultivated by some intelligent NPO FA strategists. I would have done exactly the same thing if I had been in that position at that time and had wanted to play the game that way. One Vision operated by the same modus operandi that NPO did (for example, EZI and threatening those who dissented on the OWF) and this was what VP was opposed to. So it's not accurate to say that VP was just an anti-NPO movement. They were also at war with (if you can call a guerilla style nine month crusade which was primarily waged on the OWF at war) with these other Q and 1V alliances as well. The reason that their main adversary was the NPO was that the NPO was the most powerful alliance at the time.

That having been said, the point is moot really. VP disbanded and the members went their own ways. Most of them have left the game now, and the ones who remain are members of many different alliances with many different political views. VP was a kind of fusion between dissatisfied UJP players and NpO sympathisers in the first place. Now that UJP-type alliances have come to control the game and NpO has fallen out with them, nothing like VP will ever exist again, especially in an age when moralism is dead. It's a bit of a shame really, it was fun while it lasted, but all good things come to an end and ultimately there are more important things in life than an internet game in its final stages.

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So I have to ask, because I understand your point. Do you not see the only reason you had traction for Vox was indeed the NPO? Proof of this exists in two forms:

1. You never did anything again regardless of oppression that rose to power.

2. People start speaking Vox again when the NPO makes moves some consider threatening (boggle).

Regardless of what it means to you Nintenderek, I believe you are a mass minority. Since it has been so long I am not sure you can even, just by yourself, say what it means as if it is the only meaning/reason.

On #1. Vox members scattered to the corners after Karma, including alliances that became the new heg. Of course you're not going to see much going on there, heck I joined NPO with in days of Karma ending.

On #2. Of course NPO ended up getting the lions share of attention, and it is true NPO enabled VOX, that being said, it could be no other way, NPO was the bully and the rest your toadies so to speak. For myself and many like me it was GGA and a few others that motivated me to VOX. I didn't have an axe for NPO.

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I see no difference between what Starfox and other ex-Vox types have been saying about NPO and what MK said about NPO. Vox just have to try to put a freedom fighter spin on it.

It has only been suspended. Never forget that.

We cannot allow any chance of a return to power by the New Pacific Order.

The memory of Vox has been shredded by the years of silence (while many were oppressed or targeted for destruction for the enjoyment of the hegemony) followed by veiled threats to NPO who did NOTHING to warrant a threat of this kind. Vox was at best the mouthpiece of MK/Karma

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Vox was at best the mouthpiece of MK/Karma

I'm going to read through the rest of this, but as this was at the very end as I scrolled down, I'll respond to it first.

This is absurd.

And yes, those alliances have made some serious crimes against other alliances, but nothing like the hegemony of old.

This is one point that I have strongly disagreed with many of my former comrades on. The OOC attacks being perpetrated today (with absolutely no community backlash, I might add) are as bad, if not worse, than the crimes of the old hegemony.

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This is one point that I have strongly disagreed with many of my former comrades on. The OOC attacks being perpetrated today (with absolutely no community backlash, I might add) are as bad, if not worse, than the crimes of the old hegemony.

Rubbish. The era of good guys and bad guys is long over.. stop trying to fit a completely new political dynamic into an old framework.

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Rubbish. The era of good guys and bad guys is long over.. stop trying to fit a completely new political dynamic into an old framework.

What? Where in anything that I said there did I put anything into a good guys/bad guys model or try to force it into the old framework?

The OOC attacks are being perpetrated by both "sides."

And, for what it's worth, just because most people are "bad guys," doesn't mean there aren't any "good guys" left.

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Sorry to not getting to this sooner, as I've been busy with school and work and now my new video game, but I will now take a break from all that to respond.

Nintandarek:

It's fine and all to ague that your movement was against "conditions" or that only certain "conditions" lead to Vox, but it's all a very self-defeating and circular argument.

And that, of course, is fine and all. That's your right, and long ago did I discard the naïveté that lead me to believe that people would be forthright after why they acted or did things. Perhaps that existed in the earlier ages of Bob, but not now. But of course, it explains why we see so much of this Vox-like sentiment aimed against Pacifica: old reflexes are hard to kick, eh?

What I'm getting at is that if those conditions were to exist again (which they haven't) then Vox Populi would most likely be back to face them, regardless of who the perpetrator was.

Vox was at best the mouthpiece of MK/Karma

This is so far from the truth that I if I didn't know any better, I'd say you completely skipped out during the years of Vox Populi's existence. Most of Karma didn't actually care for Vox Populi that much. Before the Karma war, even leading up to it, just as many people from Karma alliances were calling us out for our opinions as there were people in the hegemony of the time. During the war, they were quite nice to us, mostly because it would have been a PR disaster for them had then not been. After wards, they continue to call us out for our ideas to this day, and it's quite disappointing for me to see where some of our ex Vox Populi members have wound up.

This is one point that I have strongly disagreed with many of my former comrades on. The OOC attacks being perpetrated today (with absolutely no community backlash, I might add) are as bad, if not worse, than the crimes of the old hegemony.

Perhaps it's because I'm not on IRC as much as I used to be, but I have not seen ANYTHING since I came back even close to what I saw leading up to the formation of Vox Populi that helped enforce my decision to join Vox Populi. I remember people who would go out of their way to make people's lives miserable just because they opposed their alliance or their bloc. Like I said, perhaps it's because I'm not on IRC much, and perhaps I'm just not in the right channels when I am, but I have seen nothing like what I saw the first two months leading to the formation of Vox Populi.

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Part of it was from the time when you were mostly gone, but it has continued since your return, you just have missed it.

You're better off not having seen it, to be truthful, much of it is pretty atrocious human behavior.

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Part of it was from the time when you were mostly gone, but it has continued since your return, you just have missed it.

You're better off not having seen it, to be truthful, much of it is pretty atrocious human behavior.

I have to admit, I just heard about one of these particular incidents today. I was greatly surprised that nobody did pick up the Vox Populi banner. The timing would have been almost perfect. However, the incident has come and gone and so has the timing for the formation as well. Oh well. I guess people forget that when there are oppressors, it's just as much the fault of the oppressed for not doing anything about it as it is the person or group of people doing the oppressing.

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Years of silence despite some serious crimes against alliances by the likes of GOONS,GOD & MK. Yet NPO make one vague thread and out comes former Vox to say we are ready for you if we dont like your actions.

I do apologize, Alter. I was gone for around two years after Vox. Make no mistake though, I am back and encouraging others to come back. Look at Derek here, after all. I asked him to return.

The comment was not aimed at Pacifica. I've had many discussions with NPOers, made many posts regarding them, and while some has been inflammatory in nature, it's all in fun. I honestly miss them as an enemy. A true political opponent that I miss. I told Brehon just yesterday, that I would love to oppose NPO again sometime, but I am simply too busy with someone else. Were you to stop and read my posts, and let go of an age old grudge, you would notice the comment was never aimed at Pacifica. I don't fear a return to power by the NPO. I do however, fear what our current state is doing to us all.

Alter, sometimes you just need to stop. We are on the same side, but you are too blind with hate to realize it.

I see no difference between what Starfox and other ex-Vox types have been saying about NPO and what MK said about NPO. Vox just have to try to put a freedom fighter spin on it.

The memory of Vox has been shredded by the years of silence (while many were oppressed or targeted for destruction for the enjoyment of the hegemony) followed by veiled threats to NPO who did NOTHING to warrant a threat of this kind. Vox was at best the mouthpiece of MK/Karma

A mouthpiece of MK/Karma? We called Karma into action. We existed long before the name Karma needed to be capitalized. You have bent history wrong, and I don't appreciate it.

While some of my Voxian brothers have strayed from the cause, you should not be surprised. Power corrupts, and when given it, people change. Those of us who have stayed on the outskirts, or left, carry the same opinion of the new hegemony that we did of NPO back in the day. The only difference there is that I wanted revenge for myself, my friends, and all the defeated alliances as a whole. My dislike of the current hegemony is not motivated by wrongdoings perpetrated on me, but by simply disgusting behavior I have observed.

I am taking a new route this time though. However, were this one to fail, I do not rule out picking up the Vox flag if it becomes needed.

Like I said when I made my statement, it is only suspended, and there is only one group who should fear it. Open your eyes and you'll see who, Alter. I don't mince words, nor hide my true feelings, or intentions.

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After reading more I'm only convinced that you're massively out of touch.

It started in the title and cascaded into the post and general responses that followed.

We don't need your banner now, nor did we in the past.

The real battles aren't won on the sidelines.

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After reading more I'm only convinced that you're massively out of touch.

It started in the title and cascaded into the post and general responses that followed.

We don't need your banner now, nor did we in the past.

The real battles aren't won on the sidelines.

Then good thing Vox was never on the side lines. Real battles are won by the people who can convince others to join their side. That's what Vox Populi did to win our battle. That's what NPO did for years to get to the point where they were. It's what alliances like MK and GOONS have done to get where they are now. Real battles in Cybernations are not won militarily but by words.

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Then good thing Vox was never on the side lines. Real battles are won by the people who can convince others to join their side. That's what Vox Populi did to win our battle. That's what NPO did for years to get to the point where they were. It's what alliances like MK and GOONS have done to get where they are now. Real battles in Cybernations are not won militarily but by words.

I don't disagree with how battles are won but you're kidding yourself and everyone else if you think self-aggrandizement was what "turned the tide," against NPO.

You take all of the credit and provide so little substance and an even lesser share of the interaction required to change peoples minds.

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