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You can say NO.

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jerdge

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HoT very recently extensively referenced an (in)famous episode of OOC attacks against now gone players (quotes in the spoiler for the curious of you).

I personally don't think that discussing the topic of OOC attacks in that thread was a good idea (not that it's HoT that started it), but I think that continuing to discuss OOC attacks is necessary.

Simply put, the game staff has no jurisdiction over what happens off game and away from these forums, and at the same time we can't expect that everyone plays with fair play and respect. Either the players care, and they take the matter in their own hands, or no one will do it.

But don't get me wrong: I disagree with the solution that HoT has been proposing with his posts, as I strongly believe that in-game means can't by design obtain anything in Real Life. You need to convince the players that avoiding offences is important, and you have to build a culture that it's intolerant against abuse.

Moreover, a lot of players in every alliance barely follow most of what happens (IC or OOC) and they have the right not to be held guilty, and not to be harassed, because of what others did.

Even if in-game means worked, and even if we could accept to harm innocent bystanders, what body would be in charge of "administering punishment", anyway? The treatment may be worse than the disease!

Sorry for insisting (it's only every now and then, anyway :P ), but there are no shortcuts. Those that care about this issue should learn two things: that they can safely say no, and that they can help awareness spread.

My humble personal experience shows that being the change is possible: although discontinuously, I have been an "annoyance" for hegemonic powers since 2007, and - what's more relevant - I've never feared to clash with "powerful" OOC offenders. Whatever the reason and despite the occasional threat, my fun and even my pixels are intact (and pixels are way less important than self respect, anyway).

Say no to OOC attacks. You can.

AfricanGirlSmile.png

Credit - E. B. Sylvester ITT


Interestingly, we've never pushed OOC attacks to the point of declaring war for them. But I get it, it's okay. LSF are the good guys, MK is the BBEG. We can only hope and pray for MKarma to save us all, and free the land from our tyranny.

[ooc] Of course not, the only way to push someone out of the game nowadays is to harass them IRL until they flee to regain some sense of sanity in their personal lives. There's no need for war! [/ooc]

Source: A Very Special TLR Birthday

They did actually declare wars on Kait.

But that's a technicality and most certainly not the reason they left.

[ooc]Obviously IRL takes precedence over the game, and these two were tormented endlessly while their daughter was missing and pretty much just because the guy they found had a nice looking car. They continued to be harassed IRL for a long time, Archon even deleted the threads to remove the evidence in case of litigation, and ultimately the two were run out of the game because MK would have never stopped harassing the piss out of them. And every single alliance who continued to hold a treaty with MK during and after that incident is equally responsible for enabling that savage, mob behavior.

I will never forgive MK for what they did, and I absolutely believe they deserve to burn. Not just burn, eternal war. And every time they cry "Viet-MK!" and demand peace from "oppressors," everyone should point their fingers to the "bio-dad" incident and reply "No, up yours." Cancer doesn't deserve to be spared from endless rounds of chemo until it is totally and finally dead.[/ooc]

Source: A Very Special TLR Birthday

I disagree with perma-war. I happen to believe that most of the people inside MK are good people. Even the MKers I don't really care for and disagree with. The fact is because no one is standing up they have to continuously keep pushing the envelope until someone does which leads to bad things being done on Planet Bob and on rare occasions even outside of this plane. I'm not trying to defend it in any way, but I don't believe they need to be culled from Digaterra.

[ooc]I view what they did as, essentially, an unforgivable sin. There is no redemption for what they did. I'm OK with some of their members being granted peace on a case-by-case basis as long as they vacate the AA, but that alliance has fostered some of the most truly IRL immoral, illegal, unethical and downright evil activities. I disagree on the need to dive OOC as an acceptable avenue for "pushing the envelope." This is a !@#$ing online spreadsheet simulator, the object of which is to press buttons to make the other guy's numbers smaller. That is absolutely in no valid view of ethics an acceptable thing over which to IRL harass people over however many months it took before Kait and Hoo decided that it was better to leave and eliminate the never-ending harassment in their personal lives. This is a !@#$ing game. And MK is a cancerous tumor of a community that transcends the realm of this game to assault and harass players IRL. Maybe half of MK outright earned the right to be put under EZI, as I view anyone committing OOC, IRL harassment of this magnitude should be.

As a counter example, take GOONS, an alliance I legitimately like a lot in an OOC sense. They are always pushing the envelope, but they do it pretty much entirely IC, which IS a valid route of pushing the envelope. They're my in-game opponents and oppressors, but OOC I truly love what they are doing, because it's the valid way to play the bad guy. GOONS brings something to the game, not to people's IRL doorstep.[/ooc]

Source: A Very Special TLR Birthday

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No, HoT is right. The mentality that motivates OOC action is in-game gain like getting revenge on people for !@#$ from 2008 in the case he refers to. It has to be disincentivized as a tool advance in-game grudges and whatnot if you want it to stop and the only way to do it is by in-game action. If people aren't willing to impose sanctions on alliances that perform such things, then no amount of handwringing will matter. Most people who are tied to them have knowingly enabled it by reinforcing their ability to do it. A culture that is intolerant to abuse will not allow alliances who practice it to remain in powerful positions.

Like it or not, but OOC cultural cache has a lot of pull in the politics and so long as it does, people are willing to uphold relationships that don't make sense without it.

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Your right that the majority of players in most alliances don't follow what happens IC or even read what's on the OWF.

If things happen OOC that's another step entirely and almost always something IRC because the moderators can control it here. Even less people pay attention to what happens off the forum.

Thus regardless of what people do, don't "punish" people who have nothing to do with OOC attacks by bringing the "solution" against more than the offender. If anything happens to in-game, keep it to the offender only.

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I can say no all day long, and it does nothing.

Basically this. It's not like we've been quiet on the issue.

People do it because there's a percieved in-game advantage to it, similar to why politicians like to point out affairs, personality flaws, wasteful personal spending, etc on opposition politicians. Logically, it shouldn't have anything to do with how things work, but psychologically it can be powerful.

That incident did cause significant in-game damage to Ragnarok, far more than it should have.

On the other side, OOC can be used 'positively', like an alliance leader may buy a game for another alliance leader, and this OOC friendship affects IC friendship. We can't really say no to that either.

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If things happen OOC that's another step entirely and almost always something IRC because the moderators can control it here.

exactly: nobody is going to say anything on the forums, they'll do the harassment on IRC because they cant get in trouble for it(unless it's in #cybernations)

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You don't even need to form an aggressive coalition to "attack" MK on some romantic fantasy of being the heroic warrior. All it takes is to just tell yourselves and your allies that your in-game mass will not be used to support OOC, IRL atrocities. Just stand up and say no, refuse to be a lemming to MK's will. Just sit on the sidelines and watch. MK's direct allies probably won't, but the people coming in on treaty chains are just as important. Tell your allies that you want to sit this one out, and offer them rebuilding funds post war. Explain that you morally object to MK's actions. Just say no.

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Like it or not, but OOC cultural cache has a lot of pull in the politics and so long as it does, people are willing to uphold relationships that don't make sense without it.

Isn't that kind of my point? OOC cultural aspects can (and should) influence what's acceptable or not in the game, and people may also be unwilling to uphold relationships, if they're unacceptable for OOC reasons.

Simply put, the game staff has no jurisdiction over what happens off game and away from these forums

good joke

Do you mean that they have jurisdiction on off-game stuff? Do you know what "jurisdiction" means?

I can say no all day long, and it does nothing.

What you do isn't nothing.

If things happen OOC that's another step entirely and almost always something IRC because the moderators can control it here.

exactly: nobody is going to say anything on the forums, they'll do the harassment on IRC because they cant get in trouble for it(unless it's in #cybernations)

Seen from another angle, that situation works in favour of my vision: this place is an haven where OOC offenders are forced to shut up or to play by the rules of civility. That's a powerful weapon in the cultural battle to "occupy" this medium to defend one's vision. Occupy CN ITT! :awesome:

occupy-wall-street.jpg

<SNIP> All it takes is to just tell yourselves and your allies that your in-game mass will not be used to support OOC, IRL atrocities. Just stand up and say no <SNIP>. Just say no.

Save for the references to the MK, we're starting to agree here.

(I don't deny that there are OOC offenders that play this game as MK members; I don't deny that the RL virtual community which, more or less, takes shape as the MK alliance in this game, does little to nothing to adverse or even just to dissociate them from OOC abuse; I deny that they're the only ones and I strongly deny that all of them are OOC offenders, or more responsible that any other bystander for any OOC offence.)

It's the first time HoT has said something correct in about three or four years. No need to reprimand him.

I disagree with the place he decided to discuss that, and I partially disagree with his vision (see above), but I respect what he cites as his OOC motives.

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It all boils down to what people are willing to tolerate and overlook for ingame considerations. While an alliance might not wish to associate itself with people who indulge in OOC attacks, there would also be an alliance which will convince itself that since it is OOC it has no bearing on the ingame stuff. More so if they see a possible ebenefit in the association with the entity in question.

What HOT is doing here is making an appeal to the supposed inherent decency in humans. Which we have seen to be easily pushed to the background alongside the conscience and the idea of fair play, on a routine basis. The thought that someone would actually give up something that benefits them over a moral matter, is laudable, but it is also laughable. I have yet to see anyone make a value call and disadvantage themselves, specially if the others are still sitting pretty and not making similar value calls. Nobody likes being the first and most likely [from what they perceive] the only one to break ranks with a strong group and possibly damage everything they have worked for, for so long, whether it be power, security for their members or just the right to go riding roughshod over everyone else. Then there is the entire thing about being willing to overlook character defects in those one considers to be friends.

No, this place is not ever going to be free of protection/support/encouragement that is available for the people who get their jollies harassing others beyond the pale.

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