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Two Reasons NPO Is Being Too Nice

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Bob Janova

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There's two very surprising things that have been aired to the public in Brehon's thread. First, and the main point of discussion within that thread, is that alliances now think it acceptable to refuse a no-punitive-terms peace agreement, and think that they have the right to a white peace on their own terms and at their convenience.

The second, which I'd like to explore briefly here, is that the NPO has offered such a termless peace in the first place. There are two important precedents which they could call upon to easily justify far harsher demands.

The first one is probably most obvious, and regards Fark and FAN. Although Doomhouse got away with one by winning the war in the last outing, pre-emptive attacks by losing alliances could reasonably expect to be treated like TOP and IRON in Bipolar: enormous reparations as a penalty for the aggressive action. Although I've always felt that the terms demanded in Bipolar were unreasonably large, the NPO would certainy be justified in demanding some reparations.

The precedent to go to regarding Sparta comes from the Karma War. In order to protect some of its high NS nations, in that war the NPO sent them into hiding in peace mode and ordered them to stay there, just as Sparta has done in this war. The Karma alliances on that front demanded that NPO bring those nations out to get levelled before they would get peace, and even threatened a reparations escalator for every day they didn't (here is a discussion thread about it). Again, although what happened to NPO during Karma was too much, there is a precedent there that would certainly justify a refusal to give peace until Sparta actually permit the war to be won.

Obviously, to implement any peace terms, NPO would have to get the agreement of its front partners. But I don't think it would find that too hard considering the availability of applicable precedents.

In a way it is a good thing that the NPO is still so frightened of its own Hegemonic reputation that it doesn't dare demand surrender terms, three years later. Karma has actually done its job quite well in some regards. But in my view, alliances which commit aggressive attacks and then lose deserve to have some terms levied.

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It's actually not about reputation or being afraid to be seen as the "evil NPO". We've had to actively resist a lot of external pressure for us to impose harsh terms - it's safe to say most of us believe we can impose them without any real consequence.

Our negative reaction to reps is much more instinctual - having gone through those very precedents you've stated, the NPO (or at least, a large part of us) has come to really dislike the whole grudges and forced crippling payments bonanza.

Further, we have repeatedly and plainly stated that we take no issue for the "pre-emptive" attack by FARK and FAN, given our public declaration of support and intent to fight.

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Sparta doesn't strike me as an alliance that has had a long over due punishment for it's past aggression. Exceptional circumstances for an exceptional alliance. That being said, the fact that NPO chose not to demand reparations says more about them than their reputation.

This is a massive stretch.

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Blacky is spot on from what I can tell. This is more to do with reputation and CNhonor than basing decisions on root precedence (which would be awesome if that could somehow be curbed overall in CN).

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It's actually not about reputation or being afraid to be seen as the "evil NPO". We've had to actively resist a lot of external pressure for us to impose harsh terms - it's safe to say most of us believe we can impose them without any real consequence.Our negative reaction to reps is much more instinctual - having gone through those very precedents you've stated, the NPO (or at least, a large part of us) has come to really dislike the whole grudges and forced crippling payments bonanza.Further, we have repeatedly and plainly stated that we take no issue for the "pre-emptive" attack by FARK and FAN, given our public declaration of support and intent to fight.

This is the best. No sarcasm. It's not a traditional pre-empt in because the declaration of support was public. I'm not sure why people haven't taken it into consideration as much as they should. Bob, I really doubt TOP/IRON would have gotten nearly as much crap if C&G posted a DoS for a particular side.

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Bob, I really doubt TOP/IRON would have gotten nearly as much crap if C&G posted a DoS for a particular side.

Oh come on, it was common knowledge that C&G were preparing to be a counter, and I'm pretty sure they have confirmed that since the war. NPO can choose to see a pre-empt on them as okay if they wish, but let's not pretend that an official posting of a DoS makes any real difference when intentions are known.

Letum, interesting comments there. Apparently the 'new NPO' is a reality then!

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Bob, I really doubt TOP/IRON would have gotten nearly as much crap if C&G posted a DoS for a particular side.
Oh come on, it was common knowledge that C&G were preparing to be a counter, and I'm pretty sure they have confirmed that since the war. NPO can choose to see a pre-empt on them as okay if they wish, but let's not pretend that an official posting of a DoS makes any real difference when intentions are known.Letum, interesting comments there. Apparently the 'new NPO' is a reality then!

Yes for people in our actual coalition, but the issue in that case was OWF naievete. The Polar coalition contained numerous MK allies. Would-be Neutral alliances like Ronin made a big deal of it being a preempt too. It kind of annoyed me on a personal level to see people acting like C&G wasn't going to enter.

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Everyone does pre-empts, every negative stigma associated with them evidently vanished and the point of them deserving something special is evidently moot.

Sparta has (ITT) quite some political backing that Pacifica didn't have, and keeping people at war for the sake of destroying their upper tier can only reduce the number of competitors, i.e. make this game even more one-sided.

Maybe the victors just don't want to kill the game, and decided that "real" terms were a terrible idea for the game. Besides, I don't see how the NPO has to get the spotlight on this. There are way more influential alliances in their side, several of which are hardly hesitant in making decisions (controversial or not)... It really isn't about "2008's hegemony" anymore, how could it be?

BTW, I have an horrible sense of dejavu. I think we had a very similar conversation in Bob's blog after DH-NPO/PB-Polar/how you call it. (maybe not)

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I agree that the terms in BiPolar were too large. When we were creating a tech formula at the time, we didn't appreciate how much tech we were demanding. We waived 40k or something towards the end when we got friendly but for TOP it was too much tbh.

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Boo hoo, they don't want peace right now. I don't see why it's a horrible thing for them to still have some spirit left in them. Just keep hitting them until they change their minds.

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Boo hoo, they don't want peace right now. I don't see why it's a horrible thing for them to still have some spirit left in them. Just keep hitting them until they change their minds.

The one thing it wasn't was spirit.

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Boo hoo, they don't want peace right now. I don't see why it's a horrible thing for them to still have some spirit left in them. Just keep hitting them until they change their minds.

They *do* want peace actually, they just don't want to admit they lost.

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Like I said, do whatever you want so long as the reasons are right. I've gained a kind of respect for you since you're not trying to impose reps. I had kind of asked Brehon if he really meant what he said about "moving on." Evidently, he was being sincere.

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That NPO isn't demanding reps means that they accomplished something like the "Congratulations" ending was supposed to indicate.

It makes zero sense to demand reparations based on a preempt while supporting a war that started over a failed preempt 2 years ago. It shows NPO has really changed.

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