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The Wonder Discussion

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Syzygy

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Hello again,since there is a lot of discussion in the SuggestionBox going on regarding wonders, forced disbandment during war (peace terms) and the 30days-clock, here are some thoughts and a possible solution.At first: The current system is (imho) horrible. It is even a DETERRENT for new players to create nations here or keep playing the game. The same goes for people who have been forced to destroy wonders.Why that? Because right now the old nations have not only an advantage in size (that is just natural, and you can catch up this difference mostly because small nations grow a lot faster than big ones) - but also in TIME. And not just nation age, but 30day-circles. No matter how good or skilled a new player is - the lack of wonders is an eternal disadvantage. He can never overcome this, because he simply has to wait 30days for his next wonder, but in that time everyone else before him buys another one as well. In the end, he will notice the frustrating point that competition is senseless - since you can never catch up that difference. Most of the guys before him will ALWAYS make more cash, because they have ALWAYS more wonders. He can only hope that someone deletes or is getting destroyed in a big war.Now, people have suggested that Wonders should be made "indestructible", so at least long term players are not left with a perspectiveless disadvantage, but implementing this would a) hurt realism (indestructible things are just bad) and B) exclude new nations also.A lot better would be a system where users had the options to build or raze wonders any time they see the need to do so. If their nation is just strong enough to afford them (= fulfilling certain requirements + having the cash to pay for the construction) - where should be the problem?In making the requirements for wonders very differently, this also allow players to build very individual nations, depending on what they want to do with their nation. Also, at all levels there should be some economically and some military wonders available, so the user has always the choice to first complete building all wonders he fits the requirements for - or to grow infra first to get access to the higher wonders quicker, but lack the basic ones.So, lets think about the requirements:Economical Wonders (ordered by Requirement):# Great Monument: 90 days of age, happiness > 50, not in Anarchy# Great Temple: 90 days of age, happiness > 50, not in Anarchy# National War Memorial: Requires 50,000 soldiers casualties.# Movie Industry: 500 infra, 100 technology# Federal Aid Commission: 1,000 infra, 100 technology, Foreign Ministry# Social Security System: Avg Gross Income > $200 per citizen, 250 technology# Internet: 1,000 infra, 500 technology, 5 Schools# Stock Market: 1,000 infra, 500 technology, 5 Banks# Agriculture Development Program: Requires 3,000 land purchased, 500 technology.# National Research Lab: 2 Universities, 2,000 infra, 500 technology# Space Program: 2,000 infra, 1,000 technology, 3 Satellites# Interstate System: 3,000 infra, 500 technology, 5 factories# Great University: 1,500 technology# Disaster Relief Agency: 3,000 infra, 500 technology, Foreign Ministry# Mining Industry Consortium: Requires 5,000 infrastructure, 3,000 land purchased, 1,000 technology.# Universal Health Care: Requires 11,000 infrastructure, Hospital, National Research Lab.# Nuclear Power Plant: Requires 12,000 infrastructure, 1,000 technology, and a Uranium resource, GovSetting for nuclear Technology.# National Environment Office: Requires 13,000 infrastructure.# Scientific Development Center: Requires 14,000 infrastructure, 3,000 technology, Great University, National Research Lab.Military Wonders (ordered by Requirement):# Pentagon: 100,000 casualties# Central Intelligence Agency: 5 Intel Agencies, Foreign Ministry, 500 technology# Foreign Air Force Base: Foreign Ministry, 50 Aircraft, 1,000 infra, 250tech, 500 land# Anti-Air Defense Network: 5 Missile Defenses, 500 technology# Strategic Defense Initiative: Requires 3 satellites and 3 missile defenses.# Manhattan Project: Requires 3,000 infrastructure, 300 technology, and a uranium resource.# Hidden Nuclear Missile Silo: Ability to build nuclear weapons.# Fallout Shelter System: Requires 6,000 infrastructure, 2,000 technology.# Weapons Research Complex: Requires 8,500 infrastructure, 2,000 technology, National Research Lab, Pentagon Wonder.This way, no 30days counter is needed any more. Nations can buy whatever wonders they can pay for, if they have the cash to fund that. In addition they can also plan which wonder they want to get next and how they can act best to work towards the requirements it has.Nations can decide freely if they want to save up to buy more wonders first, or grow infrawise first and buy wonders later more quickly with the better profits. Players who grow faster can catch up better, Players who don't take care will get wonders slower. Skill becomes more important thant just age.Now, I want to stress another point: Wonder Price. People mentioned (and rightly so), that the prices for wonders are not that expensive any more once your nation makes 9 or 12 or even more million daily proft. I agree with that and would introduce a simple system that is also realistic: Wonders get MORE expensive the more you grow. Why? Because your nation is larger and the Social Security system or the Research Labs have a lot MORE citizens to cover, more tasks to do, SDI has to cover a larger area, Fallout Shelter Systems have to cover more supplies and so on and so on. I usually wanted to make these cost-increases dependent on infra, but on the other hand infra is not even a requirement for some of the wonders. So, I simply suggest to increase the wonder-purchase price by +1% per 1,000 NS. That means: for people like me, the same wonder would cost 2.4x as much as it would cost for someone with 0 NS. Its logical, my wonder needs to supply a by far bigger nation. With that system (which I would also copy for Improvements), we don't need to worry if someone even tries to do wonder-switches or something like that, and also improvement-switches become less attractive.Last but not least, I suggest building time: You first pay for a wonder/improvement, and then it is "under construction" for a specified amount of time. I sugges 3 days for Improvements and 15 days for wonders here. Another move against "switching" which the admin wanted to remove a long time ago.After all, I feel that this would greatly enhance gameplay because it creates way more options for the players and way more alternative routes than just waiting 30days to follow the same wonder-guides like everyone else. And: more competition and importance of skill when planning and growing your nation./Syzygy

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# Great Monument: 90 days of age, happiness > 50, not in Anarchy

# Great Temple: 90 days of age, happiness > 50, not in Anarchy

# National War Memorial: Requires 100,000 soldiers casualties.

# Movie Industry: 500 infra, 100 technology

# Federal Aid Commission: 1,500 infra, 100 technology, Foreign Ministry

# Social Security System: Avg Gross Income > $200 per citizen, 250 technology, 4500 infra

# Internet: 2,500 infra, 500 technology, 5 Schools

# Stock Market: 2,500 infra, 500 technology, 5 Banks

# Agriculture Development Program: Requires 3,000 land purchased, 500 technology.

# National Research Lab: 2 Universities, 2,500 infra, 500 technology

# Space Program: 2,500 infra, 1,000 technology, 5 Satellites

# Interstate System: 4,500 infra, 500 technology, 5 factories (may not be destroyed)

# Great University: 5,500 infra, 1,500 technology

# Disaster Relief Agency: 3,500 infra, 500 technology, Foreign Ministry

# Mining Industry Consortium: Requires 5,000 infrastructure, 3,000 land purchased, 1,000 technology.

# Universal Health Care: Requires 11,000 infrastructure, Hospital, National Research Lab.

# Nuclear Power Plant: Requires 12,000 infrastructure, 1,000 technology, and a Uranium resource, GovSetting for nuclear Technology.

# National Environment Office: Requires 13,000 infrastructure.

# Scientific Development Center: Requires 14,000 infrastructure, 3,000 technology, Great University, National Research Lab.

Military Wonders (ordered by Requirement):

# Pentagon: 100,000 casualties, 5 Barracks (cannot be destroyed while Pentagon exists)

# Central Intelligence Agency: 5 Intel Agencies, Foreign Ministry, 500 technology

# Foreign Air Force Base: Foreign Ministry, 50 Aircraft, 1,000 infra, 250tech, 500 land

# Anti-Air Defense Network: 5,500 infra, , 5 Missile Defenses, 500 technology

# Strategic Defense Initiative: Requires 3 satellites and 3 missile defenses.

# Manhattan Project: Requires 3,000 infrastructure, 300 technology, and a uranium resource.

# Hidden Nuclear Missile Silo: Ability to build nuclear weapons.

# Fallout Shelter System: Requires 6,000 infrastructure, 2,000 technology.

# Weapons Research Complex: Requires 8,500 infrastructure, 2,000 technology, National Research Lab, Pentagon Wonder.

Changes made in bold.

Also - I think there is great value in adding MANY more 'non-super' wonders if this is implemented. They can basically be very expensive improvements, more or less, but function as wonders. So nations can buy them instead of hording money like currently happens. They will definitely NOT be wonders that are always 'worth their cost' so to speak, but instead function as the original wonders were supposed to - things for older players to have that others do not necessarily need or have to have. Combined with the 1% increase in cost for every 1k NS they will NOT ever be cost beneficial any time soon.

like --

Make wonders that do the following

50,000,000

Reduces CM damage by 20%

Requires 5 Missile Defense, 5 Satellites

30,000,000

Raises Navy purchase limit by 2 per day and increases naval vessel strength +1

Requires 5 shipyards, 5 drydocks

50,000,000

Raises support limit for all navy vessels by +1

Requires 5 shipyards, 5 drydocks

30,000,000

Reduces income penalty for anarchy by 50%

Requires 3500 infra

25,000,000

Improves environment by 1

Requires 4500 infra

50,000,000

Reduces citizen penalty on Border Walls from 2% to 1%

Requires 8500 infra

20,000,000

Increases available improvement slots +5

Requires 4500 infra

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I can absolutely Agree with your changes.

I disagree with the additional wonders, I would rather use these ideas to fill up the overwhelming number of empty improvementslots. Reserve Wonder Ideas to really unique effects. However, I agree that new wonders should have very few economical effects, rather more subtile benefits which are nice to have, but do not make the nation significantly stronger.

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Either way works -- adding very expensive improvements essentially would be the same thing, as almost any nation which would consider purchasing those would almost certainly have a lot of available improvement slots. Most of those could then be broken down into further improvements kind of like this -

Instead of

Reduces CM damage by 20%

Have an improvement which does

10,000,000

Reduces CM damage by 4%, limit 5

etc.

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I think 10,000,000 for an Improvement might be a bit extreme. I could see going up to 1,000,000, though. Possibly even 3 or 4.

I agree with trying to make Wonders more unique, though. I've always thougt things like "Black Market - Lets you send secret aid" would make better Wonders than "Generic Thing - +x% population"

That said, I think the best way to deal with the massively unused Improvement slots and fix the Wonder situation at the same time is to have Wonder foundation Improvements. Improvements that do nothing but let you unlock specific Wonders as part of their prerequisites.

Do something like:

Hidden Nuclear Missile Silo - Requires 20 Nuclear Containment Facility Improvements

Disaster Relief Agency - Requires 25 Chritable Foundation Improvements

et cetera

Have enough of them and nations will start having to decide on specific Wonders in a way that isn't quite so linear. As it is now, I could buy the best military Wonder one month, and the best Economic one the next, but if the prerequisites for each compete with each other by taking up slots, it's not quite so easy. It also opens up mor optios for branching tech tees in places if you have Improvements that go towards multiple Wonders or Wonders that require multiple types of Improvements.

Just a thought.

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Not only do the wonder requirement criteria improve competition but they seem to be a lot more logical than the 30 day clock as well.

Also - I think there is great value in adding MANY more 'non-super' wonders if this is implemented. They can basically be very expensive improvements, more or less, but function as wonders. So nations can buy them instead of hording money like currently happens. They will definitely NOT be wonders that are always 'worth their cost' so to speak, but instead function as the original wonders were supposed to - things for older players to have that others do not necessarily need or have to have.

Another great idea, this game needs more focus on wonders that don't simply raise your collections by $xxx, we've seen a few introduced recently but more variety in wonders will go a long way to making this game more enjoyable. This could go beyond military as well; I would personally love to see some wonders that let you customize your nation a bit more than currently allowed.

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# Federal Aid Commission: 1,000 infra, 100 technology, Foreign Ministry

Unless it also provides secret aid, no matter what, most people still won't buy it.

# Pentagon: 100,000 casualties, 5 Barracks (cannot be destroyed while Pentagon exists)

Fun, it promotes wars.

# National War Memorial: Requires 100,000 soldiers casualties.

Goes hand in hand with the Pentagon.

# Fallout Shelter System: Requires 6,000 infrastructure, 2,000 technology.

Still won't buy it unless changed, screams 6 raids and 1 defeat alert, after a nuke strike.

After all, I feel that this would greatly enhance gameplay because it creates way more options for the players and way more alternative routes than just waiting 30days to follow the same wonder-guides like everyone else. And: more competition and importance of skill when planning and growing your nation.
# Nuclear Power Plant: Requires 12,000 infrastructure, 1,000 technology, and a Uranium resource, GovSetting for nuclear Technology.

I must've missed it, govsetting for Nuke Tech?

After all, I feel that this would greatly enhance gameplay because it creates way more options for the players and way more alternative routes than just waiting 30days to follow the same wonder-guides like everyone else. And: more competition and importance of skill when planning and growing your nation.

Yeah, kinda dulls the senses. Might be fun if you can upgrade your Wonders (I've seen a suggestion like that before) since the base price if this suggestion if followed will be increased anyways. Or probably more econ improvements would do nicely.

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Could you not do something where wonders become prohibitely expensive after say 10 wonders so you can either balance your nation to be a military powerhouse or an economic powerhouse, this way it would stop just maxing out on wonders of every variety.

Then it becomes more about skill or choice (are you a banking nation or a fighter)

I like the ideas I just had that random thought.

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What I don't like about taking away the thirty day requirement: I can buy every single wonder right now, if I didn't have to wait. The waiting at least forces me to decide whether I devote myself to economics or military, and if so, which ones? Etc.

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Yea, there are going to be nations that can buy every wonder, just like there are nations that can buy every improvement, but the 30-day slot does, as Syz says, benifit older nations to the point that its impossible to ever catch up (unless admin stops making new wonders).

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