Jump to content
  • entries
    3
  • comments
    55
  • views
    4,814

NPO/DH War Part One


Brehon

566 views

Many look at the pre-empt against the Order the start of the war. It however started long before that. It didn't start with the Polar bs either. Waters were tested when they went Safari Hunting on Red Sphere, testing to see what the NPO and Red Dawn as a whole would do. The response was nothing, because we weren't in a position to. We knew it was an attempt to draw us into a conflict, to see if we would honor the old Moldavi doctrine. At that time the world was put on notice, the NPO was going to do nothing. This let Doomhouse know they could launch a war and the world would do nothing about it. But there had to be a separation of allies and connections. It was right here at that moment when it all started.

If I step away and place myself in their shoes the next step was to probe (if not already done) to see who still had anger at NPO. Pretty easy pickings, but it had to be tangible and touchable. I am sure in many places it was a hard sell and the idea soon became to catch them on the periphery. Its pretty easy to talk about the "Orders" because people will still see it and the NPO over the last couple years did nothing to openly distance themselves. Enter Polar falling for the okey doke. Through treaty webs and activation the NPO could be drawn in and DH would be able to jump right in without spending political capital.

I logged in and the rumors of a war against Polar were growing. Immediately talk began of their treaties and how we could be drawn in. It was not a position we wanted to be in. Discussion upon discussion about should we, if there was a war. Could we? Had we recovered enough to stand on the battlefield. NS was one thing but our membership wasn't as exercised in war as we had been in the past. It was a true discussion that held an overwhelming feel of "oh !@#$". Then the war started.

Being who I am, full of piss and vinegar at times, I wanted to know why we weren't immediately jumping in. Surely Polar was stupid for falling for such a clear trap, but did that mean they deserved what was going to happen? It was during these discussions when I realized that wasn't the real issue. We owed Polar absolutely nothing, in fact they had been !@#$%* to us for some time. This was a trap to pull the NPO in. Every post on the OWF and attitudes screamed it. But to us Polar had to be accountable for their actions and if they fell prey to their own stupidity, who the hell were we to step in and fix it. All of it was rather moot because treaty activation would pull us in.

We were ready, although not willing, to enter if we were called. It was clear if we did go in, everyone that wanted a shot at the NPO would take it. Our general side didn't want this and already internal issues were hitting the Order. Due to his RL career, then Emperor Cortath was being pulled heavily by real life causing decisions and actions to be delayed and general haphazard. Our allies general knew this and worked to keep us out, for this we were thankful. At one point we felt we were 48 hours from having to go in, communication had dropped to a dribble and we were left in some darkness. Things were very much out of a our control and I definitely felt trapped and hand tied. Had 48 hours passed we would have entered the war? Its really hard to say because history never gave it that chance; the New Pacific Order was pre-empted by Doomhouse, I personally exploded. I realized right then and there we had been outplayed in a huge way.

38 Comments


Recommended Comments



The Red Raiding Safari wasn't an attempt to draw you into a war. We knew when it started that you wouldn't go to war for it. It was an expression of sovereignty. It was our response to you trying to tell us what to do. We knew your threats were a bluff and we called it.

Link to comment

Goldie: No I don't believe you (VE) declared on Polar to pull us in. However the watchers on the periphery I believe did calculate it for their uses. There is no way to look at the webs and not see the possible connections. Stage 2 doesn't have to be done intentionally it just has exist so it can be used, whether that was the intent or not.

Flak: It was a probing of the NPO. If that probe was met with force, I think there would have been less of a desire to bring NPO into anything. In any kind of situation like this, if you really want to know what someone is going to do, stick your toe in the water and see how hot/cold it is.

Link to comment

This was a trap to pull the NPO in.

Absolutely zero parties who were not treatied to VE were made aware of the impending declaration on NpO until about -5. The Polar dec was kept under extremely tight wraps in the formative stage with specific instructions that everyone save a handful of alliances be kept 100% in the dark, and I made sure of it. Further, the lead up went from start to finish in two days. Word didn't get out till we started to coalition up a few hours before, at which point it was already as good as done. Pretty hard for it to have been a "trap to pull the NPO in".

All of it was rather moot because treaty activation would pull us in.

^Should have just gone with that. In the end, the way your front went down was merely the result of a contingency plan.

Link to comment

You seem to believe I am trying to say one is right over another and that isn't the case. I am stating what I have seen and my thoughts. Step back from your knowledge (or don't) and see it from a different set of eyes, that is all this is.

Also if I thought VE directly orchestrated all of this, I would have said so on your forums directly.

Link to comment

You seem to believe I am trying to say one is right over another and that isn't the case. I am stating what I have seen and my thoughts. Step back from your knowledge (or don't) and see it from a different set of eyes, that is all this is.Also if I thought VE directly orchestrated all of this, I would have said so on your forums directly.

Oh I know, was more just kind of pointing out the poor phrasing/over generalization. If anything you implied that we were slated to kick off some sort of nefarious 'get Pacifica' plot, when I know you know that's not true.

Link to comment
But to us Polar had to be accountable for their actions and if they fell prey to their own stupidity, who the hell were we to step in and fix it. All of it was rather moot because treaty activation would pull us in.

This would be precisely the reason to have unchained treaties.

Heh, looking back, a NPO declaration of neutrality (for that specific war) might have been a good move, especially if it was a war they didn't want to fight. DoNs have their place when people are anticipating an attack from them.

Link to comment
Absolutely zero parties who were not treatied to VE were made aware of the impending declaration on NpO until about -5. The Polar dec was kept under extremely tight wraps in the formative stage with specific instructions that everyone save a handful of alliances be kept 100% in the dark, and I made sure of it.

I didn't know the target, but I knew you guys would be rolling about a day before it happened. I'm pretty sure we weren't on your short list. PYU3Q.gif

Link to comment

A decree of neutrality would have been moot and frankly wrong. First we weren't actually Neutral and it would have put us at odds with those which we are and were close with. The fact remains if our direct allies were in our history with them and our trust in them would have caused us to go in, not the document we signed. Furthermore the OWF would have saw that and had a field day. In the end, nothing would have stopped the pre-empt. The only thing it would have served was bad PR for Doomhouse (which they did plenty of themselves). Bad PR for Doomhouse vs putting a strain on our friends is not the course we wanted to take, nor should have taken.

Link to comment

A decree of neutrality would have been moot and frankly wrong. First we weren't actually Neutral and it would have put us at odds with those which we are and were close with. The fact remains if our direct allies were in our history with them and our trust in them would have caused us to go in, not the document we signed. Furthermore the OWF would have saw that and had a field day. In the end, nothing would have stopped the pre-empt. The only thing it would have served was bad PR for Doomhouse (which they did plenty of themselves). Bad PR for Doomhouse vs putting a strain on our friends is not the course we wanted to take, nor should have taken.

I am not exactly sure how you can use moot and frankly wrong in this same sentence, but I can't be bothered to ask.

Essentially what you're saying is that if you declared that you wouldn't enter the conflict (also known as neutrality) that would piss your allies off. You also say you'd have gone in regardless of a piece of paper. Your history so far was that you were not going to enter the war because you were not going to aid Polaris. Sadly for you, you can't have it both ways. Are/Were you confused?

Link to comment

Neither, its the dual problem with the situation:

No need or real cause to aid Polaris.

If allies were in, we would honor our history and agreements with them.

thus..

The decree of neutrality would have been moot for the OWF.

The decree of neutrality would have been wrong in respect to our allies.

There wasn't a whole lot that was black and white about this situation. If it were we would all agree and I wouldn't find a desire to share my views on it.

Its funny you bring up something I was thinking of writing about the owf and how every decision has to be black and white and exclusive against any other decision. There is no world where such finite lines are drawn whenever people and emotions are involved. Sounds great from a soapbox but is really a disservice to whatever issue is at hand.

Link to comment

Well, from speaking to some NPO members, I was under the impression that NPO wanted to stay out. If you had intentions of helping an ally, then DH were not too paranoid in pre-empting NPO instead of waiting a week for NPO to blindside and downdeclare on them. It's not even very bad PR for DH because there was a solid strategic reason for it. Though, they lost quite a lot of PR for continuing the war past the NpO war's end and then determining terms.

I guess you could've put in a limited unchained neutrality thing. Like if an ally was attacked for helping NpO, they wouldn't be defended, but if someone else bandwagoned on them, they would be attacked. Similar to what PC/iFOK did during the NEW war. But it would have really hurt diplomatic relationships, and NPO needed diplomatic help more than NS.

Yeah, there was no way around it really. Everyone in that last war had a choice between decisions that were either bad or worse.

Link to comment

There's a big difference there. If your entry in the war was possible and probable as you just said it was, then the DH/NPO pre-emptive strike made all sense.

Link to comment

There's a big difference there. If your entry in the war was possible and probable as you just said it was, then the DH/NPO pre-emptive strike made all sense.

But did TOP not use the same reasoning back during the TOP-C&G war, and got burned, by YOUR ALLIANCE, and YOUR ALLIANCE'S ALLIES?

Did your fellow members and allies' members not criticize TOP for the usage of the preemptive tactic and accused them of being paranoid?

Did TOP not have to pay reps for the usage of the preemptive tactic?

Is there a difference between the TOP-C&G and DH-NPO war other than the combatants?

Nope, except the amount of numbers on both side, and which side received the reps.

Link to comment

I'm bored and since people started to compare first strikes then let's see some members os DH alliances comenting TOP pre-emptive strike, some of these quotes I used in one of propaganda sigs:

"To be honest, I having trouble thinking of any alliance making as bonehead a move as this." Chief Savage Man

"Since there is no relations as far as treaties go to the current war I am calling this a new war." Ryuzaki

"Attacking alliances for no apparent reason is honorable? I clearly didn't get the memo..." Lord Stark, member of MK

"It's almost like you've got a grudge against us, and don't really care about the actual reasons behind the current war." Stormsend

"really, I have to ask. Was it LM that came up with this ridiculous scheme? Have fun when it backfires." Sandwich Controversy

"Not once did TOP ever attempt diplomacy with regard to this, either. You've cried about that in the past, but you never once attempted diplomacy here - you simply attacked aggressively. So a few members spouted off occasionally about rolling TOP (along with just about every other alliance on the face of the planet, none of whom were ever rolled), and instead of diplomacy, you went with war." Archon

"TOP has absolutely no valid CB for entering this war." JT Jag

"You guys have always been to Paranoid, sad to see its come to this." Xavi

The two ones that I like the most:

"The only threat to TOP and IRON was their own paranoia, and it has manifested itself once again in this global conflict. You, and you alone, authored this war." Archon

"The attacks perpetrated by TOP and her allies against the Complaints and Grievances Union were born out of paranoia, unsubstantiated by concrete evidence beyond teasing and whatnot by regular C&G members (but few or no instances by government), and ultimately justified by reasoning that boils down to "you were going to defend your allies who we would be attacking, thus you'd be at war at us, thus that's an aggressive threat against us." Archon

Funny how people change their mind right? :rolleyes:

Link to comment

Lusitan and really anyone; take it any way you want it. I said they would be my thoughts, they are my thoughts. I was sharing the dilemma in my thoughts and the situation. If anyone is looking for justification in their actions (on either side of the war) meh, there are better places for it.

Link to comment

CnG played the propaganda card during BiPolar. Everyone and their mother knew they would enter anyway - bear in mind I was in TFD at the time fighting Umbrella, RoK and others -, people choose to follow MK and CnG because they wanted to and no amount of excuse you may make about cries of injustice and double standards will erase the fact that you knew TOP's pre-emptive attack was plainly justified. You, specially Polar, decided to play your cards the way you did and it ended as it did for you. Tough luck.

In fact, it's rather idiotic to hear it from you D34th considering the double-game Polar was playing at the time and the fact Grub knew perfectly in which channels MK government members were sitting before CnG was attacked, and went there himself as far as I know.

That said, Brehon just said NPO would enter, so now that we have established DH was not suffering from paranoia we can conclude that a pre-emptive strike was plainly justified and the most advantageous move DH could take. I am deeply sorry that we don't declare wars for your convenience, but that's what happens generally when we're on opposite sides in a war.

Link to comment

"The only threat to TOP and IRON was their own paranoia, and it has manifested itself once again in this global conflict. You, and you alone, authored this war." Archon

That is my favourite too, I came across that one a few weeks back looking through older topics. I found it hilarious how the same thing in the end would be applied to themselves.

Link to comment
"The only threat to TOP and IRON was their own paranoia, and it has manifested itself once again in this global conflict. You, and you alone, authored this war." Archon
That is my favourite too, I came across that one a few weeks back looking through older topics. I found it hilarious how the same thing in the end would be applied to themselves.

Are you by any chance commenting the same blog post of the same NPO regent I am? Because it's plain evident it wasn't paranoia.

Link to comment

Guest
Add a comment...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...