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Economics and the Price of Peace


HeroofTime55

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This war has been going on for quite some time now, and it has begun winding to a close. Some alliances have agreed to terms and have existed from the DH-NPO war, while others remain in a state of hostilities, with steep offers of peace on the table.

Many have tried to justify these terms as 'totally reasonable' and have analyzed the numerical aspect in great detail, sometimes honestly and sometimes not so much. But always, when attempts are made to justify them, one thing has been consistently ignored by those who we oppose: What are we, the allies and friends of Pacifica (and of course, Pacifica herself) going to get in this deal?

It's an easy thing to ignore; Throughout history, the answer to that question has been so obvious that it never needed to be asked in the first place: By "paying" whatever price is in the surrender terms, you are "purchasing" peace. So why does it need to be brought up now?

The key thing, from the perspective of Pacifica and her allies, is of course whether or not making the sacrifices demanded is worth what we will get in return. What complicates this question, is the actions and statements from those offering to sell us peace, and the way in which their trustworthiness has been irreparably damaged by those actions.

As it stands, this war was began over, literally, nothing. Doomhouse aggressively attacked Pacifica without provocation or justification, out of the blue. It was a random act of violence. In the past, wars have been structured like so: X commits an offense against Y, and Y gathers a coalition to smash X to bits. But here, there was no offense, this war is not retaliatory for any action. This presents a problem: If DH is willing to attack us whenever it pleases them to do so, what is to stop them from doing so in the future?

Indeed, the very words of Doomhouse indicate that they have every intent and desire to attack Pacifica and her allies again. From their Declaration onwards, they have been making this out to be some sort of "tactical operation" to "put NPO down" because they have gotten too strong for their tastes. Even the battle cry of "Everything must die" screams this loud and clear. And this only adds to a year of intense efforts by various parties to drag Pacifica into a war prior to current events.

In short, if Pacifica "pays" to get peace, if any of us do, there is no guarantee that it will last, in fact there are strong indications that NPO is just going to get smashed again when they have made too much progress rebuilding, when those at the top of the New Hegemony decide it's time to put down NPO again, and they've already demonstrated that they are willing to do so on nothing more than a whim.

So, it begs the question: If Pacifica and her allies are pre-destined to be smashed to bits again, what difference does it make to us if we just stay smashed to bits in the first place? The difference it makes is that we get to dictate our own strategy, we get to cause as much harm as we can to our oppressors, and our oppressors do not get the benefit of rebuilding on our paycheck.

What Doomhouse is offering to sell us is not peace, but a brief pause in hostilities, hostilities which are sure to resume whenever Doomhouse feels like it. They've demonstrated the desire, capacity, and will to carry out such an attack. There is no reason why anyone should not fully expect it to happen again in the future. Only a fool would think that there is any hope for a truly lasting peace.

And that is what makes the price far, far too high. It is a simple matter of economics. We know what you're selling us, we know it isn't what you pretend it to be, as proven from a multitude of factors, and we know it isn't worth the price you ask.

Why should we bend over, let you beat us into the dirt and then hand over our lunch money, when we know you're just going to come back for more? In fact, giving a schoolyard bully what he wants only encourages him to repeat his actions.

This point of discussion is something I have never seen any member of the aggressive side touch even with a pole of considerable length, minus perhaps a handful of snide remarks and assorted drivel we've all come to expect from "lulz"-type alliances. No serious discussion, not even a hint of a counter-argument, whenever it is brought up it is ignored with extreme diligence.

And that's why I will raise this point again, and I will raise it again and again to expose the situation for what it is, until this war finally comes to an agreeable close.

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This is the part where Roq shows up and talks about how this was a preemptive attack to ensure NPO did not intervene in the VE-Polaris dispute.

But given that goal has already been achieved, we of course have to move on to what DoomHouse's real objective is.

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This is the part where Roq shows up and talks about how this was a preemptive attack to ensure NPO did not intervene in the VE-Polaris dispute.

But given that goal has already been achieved, we of course have to move on to what DoomHouse's real objective is.

People literally cannot want two things at the same time.

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People literally cannot want two things at the same time.

Yeah I've noticed the DH doublethink as well. They can't seem to agree on what the objective of all this is.* Roq seemed to believe pretty strongly in the preemption thing.

*Other than the ~terms~ of course.

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Yeah I've noticed the DH doublethink as well. They can't seem to agree on what the objective of all this is.* Roq seemed to believe pretty strongly in the preemption thing.

*Other than the ~terms~ of course.

You know, it's almost as if Doom House isn't comprised of several multifaceted organizations with hundreds of individual members run by a couple dozen of those individual members who all might happen to have their own opinions on the objectives and motives of this war. You know, instead of the hive-mind that we all know it certainly is.

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I mean, given that I didn't play a small part in actually doing it, my account is correct. I still hold to the assertion that the NPO would have to enter the war at some point. Why did we attack? To preempt NPO's entry. That's why I made it happen. That doesn't mean people didn't dislike NPO or want to attack them before that, but that was the purpose of it. So while, the preemption part was an objective, it's not necessarily the only one, because the issue of the PM stuff came up.

It has been a facepalm fest when I see people say "we attacked them for !@#$% and giggles," for no real reason despite knowing the truth, but meh.

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You know, it's almost as if Doom House isn't comprised of several multifaceted organizations with hundreds of individual members run by a couple dozen of those individual members who all might happen to have their own opinions on the objectives and motives of this war. You know, instead of the hive-mind that we all know it certainly is.

Oh pardon me. Here I was thinking that the purpose of alliances and blocs was to put forth a coherent messages.

I understand that individual members have different views, but DH's own myriad governments can't seem to get their story straight. Roq was running around like a chicken with its head cut off for weeks trying to prove that it was a preemptive attack and that alone was sufficient justification. Now we're getting the whole "NPO provoked this months beforehand" and "NPO wouldn't been in this position if their FA didn't suck" treatment.

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So while, the preemption part was an objective, it's not necessarily the only one, because the issue of the PM stuff came up.

Then please, tell us all what the rest of Doom House's objectives in this war are. You would know.

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"Defeat NPO" is what it comes down to. In addition, to what you've said, I've never seen another DH government say anything to the contrary of what I've said. It's mostly been members saying stuff that contradicts it for reasons I can't fathom. I did show the logs of me asking MT why people were doing that after all. I don't enjoy people posting stupid crap and that was what was happening.

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"Defeat NPO" is what it comes down to. In addition, to what you've said, I've never seen another DH government say anything to the contrary of what I've said. It's mostly been members saying stuff that contradicts it for reasons I can't fathom.

"Defeat NPO" is really...general. If you keep up with the preemption argument, we've already been defeated. The NS losses say DH "won", albeit MK and GOONS lost a lot too. Foreign policy wise, you still have all the cards. Given those limited objectives, the war should be over.

Instead, you've opted for completely destroying our ability to make war in the upper tier for months and crippling our rebuilding procedures. Then you turn around, claim those terms are light and announce it on the OWF, resulting in a 150 page topic. I'm not sure if you just wanted to avoid the standard NPO historical revisionism that would have come with giving us white peace. Given the objectives you could have cited, before this war was extended past the NpO front's end, you're argument that you had won would have been strong. But no, you decided to press so now there's no way you could back down from the original terms offered without being seen as "losing", at least in a PR sense. The end result is this war which is probably going to last for months and kill off lots of bored players, primarily on our side, but I expect it will have a toll on yours as well. That is my problem with DH's stance.

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And now NPO lies in defeat. So if that's all it comes down to, then why are we still here?

The motive is to crush NPO to dust, not merely defeat them. That's why. And that motive will not disappear no matter what we give you. So, I ask again, why should we give you anything? You're just going to smash NPO again at the next convenient opportunity, citing pre-Karma nonsense and a holier-than-thou need to "end the NPO forever," just like this war. And that comes straight from DH government, from your DoW on Pacifica no less.

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"Defeat NPO" is really...general. If you keep up with the preemption argument, we've already been defeated. The NS loses say DH "won", albeit MK and GOONS lost a lot too. Foreign policy wise, you still have all the cards. Given those limited objectives, the war should be over.

Instead, you've opted for completely destroying our ability to make war in the upper tier for months and crippling our rebuilding procedures. Then you turn around, claim those terms are light and announce it on the OWF, resulting in a 150 page topic. I'm not sure if you just want to avoid the standard NPO historical revisionism that will come with giving us white peace. Given the objectives you could have cited, before this war was extended past the NpO front's end, you're argument that you had won would have been strong. But no, you decided to press so now there's no way you could back down from the original terms offered without being seen as "losing", at least in a PR sense. The end result is this war which is probably going to last for months and kill off lots of bored players, primarily on our side, but I expect it will have a toll on yours as well. And that is my problem with DH's stance.

NPO compared to other alliances has been damaged substantially less and the fact that they have been able to keep much of their NS in pm for the entirety of the war makes it hard to say that they've been definitively defeated.

The revisionism is definitely a concern, especially with people on your side saying they will win by making DH bored and getting white peace, so it wouldn't have been strong before the extension. The line existed before.

The original terms can be negotiated but white peace is highly unlikely.

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I mean, given that I didn't play a small part in actually doing it, my account is correct. I still hold to the assertion that the NPO would have to enter the war at some point.

Miss_Cleo.jpg

Oh were they now, darlin'?

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Given the imminent involvement of their allies, I'd say yes. I don't think anyone from NPO has said that they were going to be neutral. It would make no sense for them not to enter.

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NPO compared to other alliances has been damaged substantially less and the fact that they have been able to keep much of their NS in pm for the entirety of the war makes it hard to say that they've been definitively defeated.

The revisionism is definitely a concern, especially with people on your side saying they will win by making DH bored and getting white peace, so it wouldn't have been strong before the extension. The line existed before.

The original terms can be negotiated but white peace is highly unlikely.

Which alliances were hurt more?

NPO's NS before the war was over 16 million. It is now under 8 million.

MK's NS before the war was 11 million. It is now 6.5 million.

Source: http://uevil.maybe.net/new/2011-01-24_R.png

Plenty of NPO's uppertier were hit. They weren't all in peacemode.

As far as the revisionism go, you're going to get that anyway. Hell the MK wiki calls the Unjust War a tactical victory. And I will be flabbergasted if the terms change on your end, barring this going on for a few more months.

Preemption is moot, the war you "preempted" us for is over.

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Take a look at NpO and STA.

MK's "tactical victory" is ironic and a take on NPO's revisionism.

The terms can change and have been negotiable since they were given. A counteroffer has not been presented aside from white peace, which was rejected.

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Given the imminent involvement of their allies, I'd say yes. I don't think anyone from NPO has said that they were going to be neutral. It would make no sense for them not to enter.

And round and round we go. Over a month removed from your initial arguments on this point and you are still asking people to disprove an assertion you are making without providing any proof yourself for the claims made.

It didn't work then, still does not work now.

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Take a look at NpO and STA.

MK's "tactical victory" is ironic and a take on NPO's revisionism.

The terms can change and have been negotiable since they were given. A counteroffer has not been presented aside from white peace, which was rejected.

NpO is a separate war. If it was one and the same, this war would be over for reasons already mentioned.

I find hilarious that we're still running with "Hopeless Coalition hasn't fought" when almost everyone on the NPO sector has suffered roughly 50% causalities. Save Umbrella of course. What's next? For the good of the game, NPO must lose 75% of it's NS so we can't have another war for a year?

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And round and round we go. Over a month removed from your initial arguments on this point and you are still asking people to disprove an assertion you are making without providing any proof yourself for the claims made.

It didn't work then, still does not work now.

The thing is, you're not denying it. You're saying I can't prove it. I think the things that leaked about NSO before the preempt but didn't come out until fairly recently, coupled with later admissions that they were going to enter on the AZTEC front is enough. I'm not saying I have logs of Cortath saying X. I'm saying NPO was going to have to enter once their allies got involved and attacked. You said it wasn't a question of TPF entering, as well. So TCK, are you going to say you were going to keep NPO out? The way you put it was that "NPO would not enter unless one of its allies was hit," meaning you weren't going with the strong "NPO was not going to enter." Is it too much to say "NPO was going to have to enter, but I don't think you should have attacked them like that?"

In any case, the point isn't to prove "NPO was going to enter", it's me saying "we attacked NPO because we thought they were going to enter" as opposed to "out of the blue attack"

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NpO is a separate war. If it was one and the same, this war would be over for reasons already mentioned.

I find hilarious that we're still running with "Hopeless Coalition hasn't fought" when almost everyone on the NPO sector has suffered roughly 50% causalities. Save Umbrella of course. What's next? For the good of the game, NPO must lose 75% of it's NS so we can't have another war for a year?

Let's look at it another way, Ragnarok-PC wasn't a separate war from Polar, but it continued because terms couldn't be agreed upon. That is how I see this.

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The thing is, you're not denying it. You're saying I can't prove it. I think the things that leaked about NSO before the preempt but didn't come out until fairly recently, coupled with later admissions that they were going to enter on the AZTEC front is enough. I'm not saying I have logs of Cortath saying X. I'm saying NPO was going to have to enter once their allies got involved and attacked. You said it wasn't a question of TPF entering, as well. So TCK, are you going to say you were going to keep NPO out? The way you put it was that "NPO would not enter unless one of its allies was hit," meaning you weren't going with the strong "NPO was not going to enter." Is it too much to say "NPO was going to have to enter, but I don't think you should have attacked them like that?"

In any case, the point isn't to prove "NPO was going to enter", it's me saying "we attacked NPO because we thought they were going to enter" as opposed to "out of the blue attack"

If you entered to preempt Pacifica and thereby assist VE, then why is this war still going? How does grinding Pacifica into dust help VE win the Polar war now that it's over? They won, and you won over here.

No, it's clear that the Polar war was nothing more than the long-awaited excuse to roll NPO. That's the only rationale behind the terms you offered for Pacifica; You're upset that you weren't able to smash into dust every single last one of their nations. So you literally wrote it in as a prerequisite for peace.

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