Statements from Squad S

I wanted to (hopefully) provoke some branched discourse on this for its own merits. What parts of the Hopeless Coalition's strategies are working? What parts are not? I would prefer to start less biased review of the political procedure of both this war and politics in Digiterra in general.

No thanks.

And the biggest crime here is that you knocked my bracket out of the top 5 blogs. For shame.

Oh and come out and fight me when you come out of peacemode. It'll be fun.

No thanks.

And the biggest crime here is that you knocked my bracket out of the top 5 blogs. For shame.

Oh and come out and fight me when you come out of peacemode. It'll be fun.

Yeah, yeah. I'm still in the five day minimum. I'm coming, I promise.

The reason your war is distasteful is that you are seeking such massive damage to an alliance that had no choice in the war. You guys are aggressors. You state NPO has suffered massive damage and fought, but that isn't good enough. You jumped them and knocked off 50% their NS... Not good enough for you. You guys want their last remaining NS and turn them into a crater for the flimsiest of reasons. The cited reasons you entered against NPO are over - Polar peaced out, and the unprecedented scale of reps that took a year to pay for Karma. Your alliance is a pack of criminals and in due time when the might of your allies is all that holds you up now, that will fade as their power fades. Your war is unjust, your cause is dubious and wrong. The resolve of criminals to carry out their crime should never be a subject of praise, but rather warning call to all rational individuals to prepare.

The reason your war is distasteful is that you are seeking such massive damage to an alliance that had no choice in the war. You guys are aggressors. You state NPO has suffered massive damage and fought, but that isn't good enough. You jumped them and knocked off 50% their NS... Not good enough for you. You guys want their last remaining NS and turn them into a crater for the flimsiest of reasons. The cited reasons you entered against NPO are over - Polar peaced out, and the unprecedented scale of reps that took a year to pay for Karma. Your alliance is a pack of criminals and in due time when the might of your allies is all that holds you up now, that will fade as their power fades. Your war is unjust, your cause is dubious and wrong. The resolve of criminals to carry out their crime should never be a subject of praise, but rather warning call to all rational individuals to prepare.

This isn't really the way I wanted to go with this, but I'll bite.

You're appealing to a facsimile of international law, chiefly what political scientists refer to as the Indivisibility of Peace; An attack on one or a group being an attack on the society as a whole. The flaw in that reasoning is that there is a significant power vacuum in the political reality of Digiterra that results in an anarchic system of inter-alliance affairs. No one gets to write the rules of right and wrong except those that can enforce them, even if you can establish that they're some intrinsic set of values.

This isn't to try to argue that GOONS or Doomhouse abides by some sort of Might Makes Right theory of justice. It is also a very fine line between preemption for security and paranoia. However, within the context of an anarchic system of inter-alliance affairs, solutions to conflicts can involve a variety of controls. Arms control is obviously out of the picture in the context of the current state of affairs. A policy of unlimited self-defense is closer to what actually currently exists and is the context in which we wage this war. It was, very plainly, necessary for our alliance security that this war occur. We made a decision to protect ourselves while we had the initiative and opportunity, and frankly it's paying off.

You couldn't face the absurdity of the thread you guys started so you decided to blog about the same absurdity.

How is that working for you?

Let's get everyone in here and pound this blog with thousands of circular arguments too!

Protip: quit making silly announcements that are sure to get buried in scores of pages of crap and you won't have to see them anymore.

This isn't really the way I wanted to go with this, but I'll bite.

You're appealing to a facsimile of international law, chiefly what political scientists refer to as the Indivisibility of Peace; An attack on one or a group being an attack on the society as a whole. The flaw in that reasoning is that there is a significant power vacuum in the political reality of Digiterra that results in an anarchic system of inter-alliance affairs. No one gets to write the rules of right and wrong except those that can enforce them, even if you can establish that they're some intrinsic set of values.

This isn't to try to argue that GOONS or Doomhouse abides by some sort of Might Makes Right theory of justice. It is also a very fine line between preemption for security and paranoia. However, within the context of an anarchic system of inter-alliance affairs, solutions to conflicts can involve a variety of controls. Arms control is obviously out of the picture in the context of the current state of affairs. A policy of unlimited self-defense is closer to what actually currently exists and is the context in which we wage this war. It was, very plainly, necessary for our alliance security that this war occur. We made a decision to protect ourselves while we had the initiative and opportunity, and frankly it's paying off.

I think you've clouded my very frank strategic assessment with some fancy albeit irrelevant terminology. Fact is the longer a side upholds a war, unless for incredibly compelling reasons (something akin to the /b/ attacks ect) the more at risk they put themselves overall. At some point the damage you do your enemy will begin to be surpassed by the damage your extortion/demands will do to your pr/strategic position. Over the course of a long enough road of such actions, you will find yourself at the bottom end of a "preemption for security".

I do not see what about the terms offered to the Order are extortion. As far as I know, there weren't any reparations figures asked of them. You might want to rethink your word choice when trying to make your points.

I do not see what about the terms offered to the Order are extortion. As far as I know, there weren't any reparations figures asked of them. You might want to rethink your word choice when trying to make your points.

My word choice when it comes to YOU is all I need to rethink. What YOU do and have done is disgusting and shameful.

GOONS attacked an alliance and got counter attacked for that direct action. Demanding several billion in addition to 4 weeks of war with no peacemode fits my definition of extortion.

Protip: quit making silly announcements that are sure to get buried in scores of pages of crap and you won't have to see them anymore.

If we took this advice, you would never see us any more, as this would mean never making any announcements at all. Please don't blame the people attempting to add value to the OWF experience.

To elaborate: I think that NPO's publication is in general quite terrible, but do you know what I do? Leave well enough alone, and let the people enjoy it.

My word choice when it comes to YOU is all I need to rethink. What YOU do and have done is disgusting and shameful.

GOONS attacked an alliance and got counter attacked for that direct action. Demanding several billion in addition to 4 weeks of war with no peacemode fits my definition of extortion.

Hey now, there's no need to be bitter. You have it made in the shade and nothing to worry about here. What I am suggesting is nothing more than that, a friendly suggestion. Instead of "extortion" try using the word "coercion." We're not trying to extort them out of their bunkers, but you can say we are trying to coerce them. But I suppose I could warm up to your version of the English Language if I tried. It appears to be a very fun alternative to the real thing.

Being counterattacked was clearly an anticipated move by the GOONS Government, they didn't make the decision to go to war lightly. But they had already set a precedent to only request reparations from alliance whom have attacked us regardless of the circumstances which led to that counterattack. To quote a famous man, I might be wrong but I'm certain GOONS have not requested reparations from a war they initiated. And those aggressive wars in and of themselves are a rare event.

Gentlemen, while I appreciate your zeal, the place for idolatry is the thread where this came from.

What I want to discuss rather is how policy issues of IAOs affect the quasi-anarchic state of affairs of digiterra, or whether or not Pacifica's strategy can in fact do anything for them, et cetera. Very few protracted wars have been fought in this game, and the study of how they affect relationships and growth is curious.

For example, what if Doomhouse *can* maintain a prolonged siege on NPO without any harm to themselves? GOONS has already plateaued in NS and started reclimbing. If rebuilding efforts begin succeeded while the war is ongoing, then GOONS suddenly have a viable out to both progress and maintaining their war-based economy; two birds with one stone, so to speak. It facilitates newbie training as well as resourcefulness among both sides of the war line.

Nationheads are very prone to saying things like "I don't like what these means for the future of IAO relations and surrenders in the future", but what does that mean? What are these implications that people are seeing, but not addressing formally?

Being counterattacked was clearly an anticipated move by the GOONS Government, they didn't make the decision to go to war lightly. But they had already set a precedent to only request reparations from alliance whom have attacked us regardless of the circumstances which led to that counterattack. To quote a famous man, I might be wrong but I'm certain GOONS have not requested reparations from a war they initiated. And those aggressive wars in and of themselves are a rare event.

To be 100% correct, we did get some reps from NATO in Bi-Polar which we used an oA chain to get in on, but it was a singular instance that isn't part of official policy or protocol. IE: Not a repetitious circumstance.

I do not see what about the terms offered to the Order are extortion. As far as I know, there weren't any reparations figures asked of them. You might want to rethink your word choice when trying to make your points.

Let me be real for a post. As far as the ~terms~ go:

We were offered "white peace" after 1 month of war, some of our allies were not. Besides them being our friends, it would make our strategic position weaker if they had to face an extended period of fighting by themselves. Normally I wouldn't really care about our deterrence ability because attacks out of the blue are a rare occurrence.

Two months ago my opinion changed. Due to the vague nature of Archon's ~CB~, an attack could take place, by DoomHouse reasoning, the instant we are thought to be a threat. I can't take credit for this line of one of our alliances members, but I get the feeling that DoomHouse's leadership views "Pacifica as a shurb that needs to be periodically trimmed back." A long extended conflict is probably our best bet for deterring future aggression on us and our allies. If you know you're going to get a year long war of occupation every time you declare war, you'll at least show a little pause.

I also suspect after the one month of war specified in the terms, we would also have to make one of those "we admit defeat" statements. We would then get another drawn out thread about how making a "we admit defeat" statement is/is not "white peace." As much as we all love those circular argument threads, I think I'll pass.

All of this is of course only my own opinion on the situation.

Two months ago my opinion changed. Due to the vague nature of Archon's ~CB~, an attack could take place, by DoomHouse reasoning, the instant we are thought to be a threat. I can't take credit for this line of one of our alliances members, but I get the feeling that DoomHouse's leadership views "Pacifica as a shurb that needs to be periodically trimmed back." A long extended conflict is probably our best bet for deterring future aggression on us and our allies. If you know you're going to get a year long war of occupation every time you declare war, you'll at least show a little pause.

If that's what you truly believe, that I can at least understand the logic behind it. I don't believe that is Doom House's leadership's view, but eh, your brain.

I also suspect after the one month of war specified in the terms, we would also have to make one of those "we admit defeat" statements. We would then get another drawn out thread about how making a "we admit defeat" statement is/is not "white peace." As much as we all love those circular argument threads, I think I'll pass.

This seems a little silly though. You don't want to surrender/admit defeat because it'll spawn a long thread? That's just petty.

This seems a little silly though. You don't want to surrender/admit defeat because it'll spawn a long thread? That's just petty.

That may well be the case.

If we took this advice, you would never see us any more, as this would mean never making any announcements at all. Please don't blame the people attempting to add value to the OWF experience.

To elaborate: I think that NPO's publication is in general quite terrible, but do you know what I do? Leave well enough alone, and let the people enjoy it.

You compare the NPO tabloid propaganda to your leadership rabblerousing?

Like comparing apples to solenoids. One is a purpose built satire with full intent to entertain a certain audience. The other looks to be a genuine appeal to everyone to agree with your point of view.

Worse you realize without your lame soapboxing you would have nothing to offer at all. You aren't adding any value to OWF with these announcements other than feeding the trolls like pigeons in a park. You post these white bread attempts at grandstanding and the trolls flock over, pick at it, and crap all over the pavement. Adding value would actually shutting up already with these attempts. Accept your inability to post weighty pronouncements that cause everyone to take serious notice. All DH leadership seems to manage when they try this is look more clownish, which reflects on the entire lot of you. Coupled with the PR disasters in the war's other closing front the entire operation has turned your management into laughingstocks. You actually managed to achieve the exact opposite of your intention with this. You managed to shut up the low level rumbling from those of us in hippie mode itching to fight. Now that we know it pisses you off so much we are far more content to lay back and operate on our leaders' time table. Saying nothing might have got you your wish sooner.

You guys have become our "straight men" feeding us our comedy lines. The more shovel us the easy lines the more humorous it becomes to us.

If you don't learn to shut up in public you can expect a lot more of these PR fiascoes.

You compare the NPO tabloid propaganda to your leadership rabblerousing?

Like comparing apples to solenoids. One is a purpose built satire with full intent to entertain a certain audience. The other looks to be a genuine appeal to everyone to agree with your point of view.

Worse you realize without your lame soapboxing you would have nothing to offer at all. You aren't adding any value to OWF with these announcements other than feeding the trolls like pigeons in a park. You post these white bread attempts at grandstanding and the trolls flock over, pick at it, and crap all over the pavement. Adding value would actually shutting up already with these attempts. Accept your inability to post weighty pronouncements that cause everyone to take serious notice. All DH leadership seems to manage when they try this is look more clownish, which reflects on the entire lot of you. Coupled with the PR disasters in the war's other closing front the entire operation has turned your management into laughingstocks. You actually managed to achieve the exact opposite of your intention with this. You managed to shut up the low level rumbling from those of us in hippie mode itching to fight. Now that we know it pisses you off so much we are far more content to lay back and operate on our leaders' time table. Saying nothing might have got you your wish sooner.

You guys have become our "straight men" feeding us our comedy lines. The more shovel us the easy lines the more humorous it becomes to us.

If you don't learn to shut up in public you can expect a lot more of these PR fiascoes.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand you missed the point.

It doesn't matter what we post, it's trollbait nonetheless. Saying we should stop making announcements that are going to get buried under crap is the same as telling us to not make announcements. The GOONS-VE ODP thread got to about 30 pages. We aren't starting circular debates with ourselves.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand you missed the point.

There is a difference between missed and dismissed.

Let me be real for a post. As far as the ~terms~ go:

We were offered "white peace" after 1 month of war, some of our allies were not. Besides them being our friends, it would make our strategic position weaker if they had to face an extended period of fighting by themselves. Normally I wouldn't really care about our deterrence ability because attacks out of the blue are a rare occurrence.

Two months ago my opinion changed. Due to the vague nature of Archon's ~CB~, an attack could take place, by DoomHouse reasoning, the instant we are thought to be a threat. I can't take credit for this line of one of our alliances members, but I get the feeling that DoomHouse's leadership views "Pacifica as a shurb that needs to be periodically trimmed back." A long extended conflict is probably our best bet for deterring future aggression on us and our allies. If you know you're going to get a year long war of occupation every time you declare war, you'll at least show a little pause.

I also suspect after the one month of war specified in the terms, we would also have to make one of those "we admit defeat" statements. We would then get another drawn out thread about how making a "we admit defeat" statement is/is not "white peace." As much as we all love those circular argument threads, I think I'll pass.

All of this is of course only my own opinion on the situation.

This is the sort of constructive post I'm looking for.

Okay that given, I'm of the opinion that Doomhouse is not threatened by a year long trench war. Our allies' income exceeds their expenses, we're growing at an absurd rate, and at this rate, NPO and friends will become essentially a permanent tech-raid. Obviously, my opinion is a little biased by my successes since the creation of my nation, and I don't have any inside info whatsoever what our allies income actually is to say for sure whether or not we can be sustained indefinitely in such a manner as I claim. I believe, however, that what we're going to see as this conflict progresses is a plateau in the losses that we are taking, which is already possibly starting to occur, and a shift of our resource pooling and slot efficiency to mutual exchange. Once we no longer need full aid bombs to maintain our wars, slots are freed up for tech exchanges, further decreasing ally outgoing losses and easing morale by supplementing their aid with a tangible reward as we're able to start sending tech in exchange.

That's a pretty huge best case scenario though.

If you don't learn to shut up in public you can expect a lot more of these PR fiascoes.

Assume for the moment that I really don't care if we have a valid CB or not. I'm not goons gov and ergo my opinion doesn't reflect that of our decision making process, but I'm making so much money off of this war it's ridiculous. I come out of every single war so far richer than I went into it, and the way NPO cries like children about what's not fair or right or justice or whatever in the world it is you guys try to appeal to to get the pity of everyone else or some sort of self-righteous rise for yourselves feeds my very bare soul.

This is not some other realm. Lives are not lost in conflicts, and the fate of nations is an ebb and flow. Just War Theory as you want to seem to subtly self-define it as this act of aggression between Doomhouse and NPO means precisely nothing. We're aggressors. We're attacking because it is in our best interest to do so. There's legitimate political reasons, but there's also the factor that we really just want to.

You can fight or you can not, but we're taking your tech one way or another. Now put on your big girl panties and either talk strategy and actual theory or else leave it be. If you're looking for justifications so you can sleep better at night, you won't get them from me.

Do you hate us? Boy that must make life difficult for you.

Twelve alliances jumped in on GOONS in honor of various defensive or offensive agreements, be it for NPO or their allies. Those of you who have fought and fought well, you have been logistically and financially left high and dry by your allies. Those of you who have not dedicated yourselves to the fight, have joined NPO's upper remaining echelon in abandoning them.

I disagree. Umbrella has kept me funded nicely. I can probably fight here in the pit forever. How long before the rest of the world sees you as an opportunity to crush and make themselves #1?

I disagree. Umbrella has kept me funded nicely. I can probably fight here in the pit forever. How long before the rest of the world sees you as an opportunity to crush and make themselves #1?

Your personal experiences aside, the numbers don't lie. You can fight in the pit forever, but you're going to be banging your fist up against a wall with no real progress. You can't damage us at a rate that our financial backing can't outrepair, and if you continue to fight us when the ~next war~ comes around, all you'll be doing is taking up defensive slots that real opponents can't instead.

5 billion per month. I doubt any nations in the Hopeless Coalition have any nations out of peace mode that have a 5 billion warchest.

I digress. My point here isn't to talk propaganda. I want honest answers on how it is possible for either coalition to "win" or what even "winning" means anymore in a context removed from the present war. Our only definition for it in Digiterra seems to be "when one side surrenders" and I'm not sure that answer is sufficient to an analytical approach to global politics.

Your personal experiences aside, the numbers don't lie. You can fight in the pit forever, but you're going to be banging your fist up against a wall with no real progress. You can't damage us at a rate that our financial backing can't outrepair, and if you continue to fight us when the ~next war~ comes around, all you'll be doing is taking up defensive slots that real opponents can't instead.

5 billion per month. I doubt any nations in the Hopeless Coalition have any nations out of peace mode that have a 5 billion warchest.

I digress. My point here isn't to talk propaganda. I want honest answers on how it is possible for either coalition to "win" or what even "winning" means anymore in a context removed from the present war. Our only definition for it in Digiterra seems to be "when one side surrenders" and I'm not sure that answer is sufficient to an analytical approach to global politics.

I do believe that you made a point there, "when one side surrenders". What does not make sense to me is the, "we won so pay us" approach. I'm not paying anything. That is like saying it was OK for Germany to loot the Jews because they won. It's not right. Good people decided that it was wrong and beat the hell out of the Aggressors and they are now still able to be charged for their hate crimes. How is this different? "We attack the Jews because they are doing better and growing faster than us!", DH is the new hitler. I won't stop until somebody decides that they can tip the scales and end this hypocrisy. It needs to be stopped. War is good, but Oppression is not.

I do believe that you made a point there, "when one side surrenders". What does not make sense to me is the, "we won so pay us" approach. I'm not paying anything. That is like saying it was OK for Germany to loot the Jews because they won. It's not right. Good people decided that it was wrong and beat the hell out of the Aggressors and they are now still able to be charged for their hate crimes. How is this different? "We attack the Jews because they are doing better and growing faster than us!", DH is the new hitler. I won't stop until somebody decides that they can tip the scales and end this hypocrisy needs to be stopped. War is good, but Oppression is not.

Reparations existed in real life from the moment of the conception of nations until the end of World War II. Last time I checked, when the third reich won a war, they took the entire country. That's why aggressors don't "get" reparations. Because they just win and take them.

Also, DH is literally Hitler.