Zog's Blog

Kudos on an honest, well-written piece.

What's anyone going to do about it if NoR changes their mind about the terms now that it's clear they were negotiated in bad faith? Everyone is at war. You think WF wants round two? Hah.

You are misinformed, the terms negotiations were absolutely in good faith, they just had absolutely nothing to do with DT whatsoever. No one in the room knew what would happen with the DT-CSN front, I just assumed it would peace out like the rest of them, but take longer because the word was that DT would not peace out until LoSS did, and LoSS would not do so until IAA did.

You are misinformed, the terms negotiations were absolutely in good faith, they just had absolutely nothing to do with DT whatsoever. No one in the room knew what would happen with the DT-CSN front, I just assumed it would peace out like the rest of them, but take longer because the word was that DT would not peace out until LoSS did, and LoSS would not do so until IAA did.

I find it highly unlikely that a member alliance of PB was not privy to Nordreich's post-war plans. The matter did not come up in direct discussions because it was quite frankly none of wF's business.

However, you're quite right about the alliances not leaving before someone else was allowed to do the same. There were even more alliances than DT, LoSS and IAA who were not prepared to quit the field until someone else was allowed to do it first. I suspect that if one played a game of connect-the-dots, we would find overlapping promises to the point where, theoretically at least, nobody would leave the war for any reason.

I find it highly unlikely that a member alliance of PB was not privy to Nordreich's post-war plans. The matter did not come up in direct discussions because it was quite frankly none of wF's business.

However, you're quite right about the alliances not leaving before someone else was allowed to do the same. There were even more alliances than DT, LoSS and IAA who were not prepared to quit the field until someone else was allowed to do it first. I suspect that if one played a game of connect-the-dots, we would find overlapping promises to the point where, theoretically at least, nobody would leave the war for any reason.

What I said had nothing to do with your entire first line lol, you should re-read what point I exactly brought up because it doesn't mention NoR's post-war plans, it only responds to comments of 'negotiating in bad faith' which just didn't happen.

Well, that is very transparent of you.

We should now ironically hail xiph for forgetting the "larger plan" of destroying NPO,... although the war he is fighting has nothing to do with NPO,... but it all comes back to it. Even if NPO does absolutely nothing, the grand plan is always based on NPO.

That is very cool actually.

Good job Xiphosis!

Wait, wait.

You think the CSN/DT issues are about you?

Hello arrogance.

Maybe CSN just doesn't like DT and couldn't care less what deal you made with the a friends friends friends friend to flip sides half way through a war.

I fail to see why NoR would think that DT would be in any position to "defend" them after leaving this war--even if they had been able to leave a week ago--or, indeed, why NoR would count on any of its allies to ride to its defense if it attacked NPO based on an unwritten "gentlemen's agreement." If NoR wants to hop on the bandwagon why not just do it?

Even further, who does NoR expect to need defending from? Every alliance that is going to be fighting on the NPO front is already deployed. There's no one to counter NoR.

You might have been/might feel played by the aggressors on the Viridian front, but you would have been just as played by FAN and Doomhouse, the only reason they would need you is to take a small amount of pressure off themselves in their war of election and unwarranted aggression. I'm frankly more disappointed in NoR than I ever thought imaginable over the fact that you left a war where your allies actually need you and are actually at war for a reason and are still at war so you could go join a mass techraid in a daisyfield.

And now that you have been utterly duped, your response is.......whoops lol we'll send you some money later. Really?

Sorry, not impressed. Other than to counter claims that NoR offered to attack NPO in exchange for DT peace, I don't even see why you would make all this public, it just makes NoR look like it's in over its head in politics and war. And that pains me to see, really pains me to see and to say, about an alliance I had a lot of respect for but was apparently seeing through rose glasses.

Really have no comment other than I am one of those who supports NPO.

Wait, wait.

You think the CSN/DT issues are about you?

To some degree. As we were wrapping up our talks with wF we learned that Xiphosis was telling anyone who'd listen how much he wanted to hit Nordreich and settle his juvenile, four-year-long personal vendetta. Our exit from the war robbed him of yet another opportunity, so it really isn't that much of a stretch.

Now, perhaps this will come as a shock to you, but the leader of the Global Order of Darkness really is that petty. But you know who isn't shocked by this? Most of the alliances at war with the NPO, most of whom are your allies. Imagine that!

Maybe you need to get out more?

Maybe CSN just doesn't like DT and couldn't care less what deal you made with the a friends friends friends friend to flip sides half way through a war.

That might carry some weight if CSN had actually written the terms or we had not been placed (as RIA was, as you'll recall) in the awkward position of dealing with requests from both sides of the war in fairly rapid succession.

So yes, apart from being wrong about everything you've said, you make a couple of excellent points there.

However, you're quite right about the alliances not leaving before someone else was allowed to do the same. There were even more alliances than DT, LoSS and IAA who were not prepared to quit the field until someone else was allowed to do it first.

DT approached CSN asking for peace 6 (six) days after entering against Legacy. DT were quite prepared to hit and run, leaving LoSS to its fate. Their request was a white peace, not conditionally tied to anyone but DT getting out of anything. Hell, DT even offered to pay 40k reps to get out (if they could determine some of the method of payment) without tying it to LoSS or TIO getting out - before they renegged.

It seems the loyalty of DT is a little overstated.

Another excellent post, Ashoka.

To some degree. As we were wrapping up our talks with wF we learned that Xiphosis was telling anyone who'd listen how much he wanted to hit Nordreich and settle his juvenile, four-year-long personal vendetta. Our exit from the war robbed him of yet another opportunity, so it really isn't that much of a stretch.

Well yes, if you a self centered, narcissistic, egotist. I'm sure you'd immediately jump to the conclusion that everything was about you.

But then you'd just be silly, and wrong, instead of just wrong.

Now, perhaps this will come as a shock to you, but the leader of the Global Order of Darkness really is that petty. But you know who isn't shocked by this? Most of the alliances at war with the NPO, most of whom are your allies. Imagine that!

Ohhh character attacks, yes that will make you look wise and reasoned.

Maybe you need to get out more?

I have a better grip on reality than you do, so no I think my outdoor activities happen often enough.

That might carry some weight if CSN had actually written the terms or we had not been placed (as RIA was, as you'll recall) in the awkward position of dealing with requests from both sides of the war in fairly rapid succession.

Oh my another shocker, somebody talked to their bloc mate for opinions on the surrender process. Would you be shocked to know some of VE's allies followed our lead in Bipolar surrender negotiations as well? It couldn't possibly be that people actually communicate with their friends, no its much more plausible that its all a grand conspiracy against you.

So yes, apart from being wrong about everything you've said, you make a couple of excellent points there.

Speaking of wrong, do you bother consulting reality before speaking or just go with whatever crazy idea can make it about you?

The Commonwealth of Sovereign Nations demanded 40,000 tech from The Dark Templar as their condition for ending the war. Myworld and the rest of The Dark Templar were shocked. Why should CSN make such exorbitant demands? Why were they attempting to extort DT?

Agreed. A bad initial decision.

The way I see it, everyone's been making this harder than it has to be.

Simply put, the reality is that CSN will not be bullied or threatened into giving DT white peace. They've lowered their reps significantly (cut them by 25%, removed a variety of restrictions, and doubled the length in which they can be paid). But if they wanted CSN to reduce the reps significantly they probably shouldn't have been complete dicks about everything. Then this would have been solved. They ruined any chance of this being solved peacefully. And they're as at fault for this not being resolved as CSN is. CSN handled terms poorly, DT handled negotiations poorly. Period.

Dear SF,

In case you're wondering why we chose to keep connections with PB instead of you guys, it's because we knew you were going to start pulling !@#$ like this.

The only issue is that NoR / DT are just as responsible for !@#$@#$ up the end to this DT-CSN war as CSN is. Pulling acceptable terms off the table because they weren't taken immediately? Asking CSN to surrender? Threatening to harm the coalition just to spite CSN? Really?

MK wouldn't give in to the kinds of things DT/NoR are trying to pull either.

If NPO started telling you that the terms on the table were you apologizing to them, granting them white peace and agreeing to not re-enter the war, would you take those terms? Would you even continue negotiating terms down? What about if you continually lowered your own terms to levels NPO found acceptable, only for NPO to once again refuse the terms and offer new, lower terms themselves? Then did it again? Would you keep going lower to appease NPO?

That might carry some weight if CSN had actually written the terms or we had not been placed (as RIA was, as you'll recall) in the awkward position of dealing with requests from both sides of the war in fairly rapid succession.

Where, exactly, did you get the idea that CSN didn't write the terms?

In the end, NoR are the ones who refuse to help against NPO, not CSN and not GOD. Period. What if NoR were demanding VE immediately give Polaris white peace in order to enter the war? If we refused, would you be blaming us, too? Would it be our fault that NoR wasn't helping you?

Threatening to harm the coalition just to spite CSN? Really?

I think you've got this a little bit twisted. NoR is not threatening to harm the coalition due to CSN's actions. The coalition is harmed by CSN's actions.

I think you've got this a little bit twisted. NoR is not threatening to harm the coalition due to CSN's actions. The coalition is harmed by CSN's actions.

No, I really don't have it twisted. NoR is not going to help the coalition because CSN won't give someone white peace. What if DT made the same threat of VE and Polaris? Would we then be at fault? NoR is the one refusing to enter here, not CSN. What if it was flipped, and NoR was demanding that DH give NPO white peace to enter the war against Polaris (and we needed the help). If DH refused, citing NPO's threats and general lack of respect and refusal to negotiate in good faith, would it be MK's fault that NoR isn't entering?Really? CSN has worked with DT to try to find a reasonable peace. CSN even accepted DT's counter-offer, but because it was 24 hours later it was "too late" so the war didn't end. CSN is currently demanding only 10k tech be paid to themselves. And DT won't even do that, when they were willing to pay 40k tech just a week ago. I don't see what more they should be expected to do (other than not demand 40k tech in the first place).

In the end, only NoR can decide whether they will enter the war or not. Their attempt to place the blame on an alliance they've historically hated, though, is hilarious. It's sad that some are falling for it.

Through their anger and short-sightedness, Xiphosis and CSN have managed to keep at least 8,000,000 NS from entering the war.

Whose short-sightedness, exactly? CSN has at least twice offered terms that DT has found acceptable in the past. And by 'past' I mean 'like the night before.' Rather than accept them, DT retracts its acceptance of the terms each time.

Blinded by anger and unable to see 'the big picture' even if it were painted on the side of a barn, Xiphosis and his stooges are doing more to materially aid the NPO than they would by declaring war on Pacifica's opponents.

Once again, CSN, recognizing the need to end this war, has agreed to DT's counter terms.

Then DT went and pulled those terms from the table later... and then refused to honest a serious compromise. If DT had then said "we're knocking 2k tech off for taking a day to respond", the war would be over. That's negotiating. Saying "White peace since you took 1 day to accept this deal' is not negotiating in good faith. It's stupid.

So CSN came back and offered even lower terms. Only 10k tech to CSN and 20k to Legacy. This is lower than DT's counter-offer. DT's response? Try to nickle and dime the terms even lower.

Every time CSN lowers terms, DT lowers their offer. That's not negotiating and that's not a compromise on DT's part. It's short-sightedness. You'd think that if NoR was really all that concerned with the war against NPO they'd ask DT to try to come to a reasonable compromise. Like, say, paying CSN 1/4 what they originally asked.

Criticize CSN for the high initial reps all you'd like, but all they're asking now is 10k tech (Legacy would get 20k, too..). That's extremely reasonable and extremely fair. The only reason they aren't accepting is because they believe that by punishing us, they can get us to pressure CSN into giving in to DT's demands. It's that simple. That they're refusing to aid the war against NPO in order to manipulate us into fighting their battles for them is unacceptable.

There's absolutely nothing I hate more than an alliance blatantly attempting to use me or my allies.

In the end, only NoR can decide whether they will enter the war or not. Their attempt to place the blame on an alliance they've historically hated, though, is hilarious. It's sad that some are falling for it.

Wait, what? CSN and NoR had little in the way of interaction before the war, and certainly none in the way of animosity. Regardless, I'm not going to get into this with you. You've been cherry picking your favorite talking points and ignoring others posed by logical and critical thinking people (including myself).I guess that's part of your new cheerleading thing so, good luck with that.

Wait, what? CSN and NoR had little in the way of interaction before the war, and certainly none in the way of animosity. Regardless, I'm not going to get into this with you. You've been cherry picking your favorite talking points and ignoring others posed by logical and critical thinking people (including myself).I guess that's part of your new cheerleading thing so, good luck with that.

Which is why NoR has turned this into Xiphosis' fault, so that they can attack GOD.

I'm not sure what exactly I'm ignoring. I literally directly addressed your point. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm ignoring you.

Where, exactly, did you get the idea that CSN didn't write the terms?

From a GOD member saying that Xiphosis "literally wrote them."

The implication of this statement is that Xiphosis literally wrote them.

The flip-side of that implication is that CSN did not write them.

You really are dense, aren't you?

Every time CSN lowers terms, DT lowers their offer. That's not negotiating....

Ummm...yeah, it really is. I'm guessing you've never bought a car, or you'd see just how utterly ridiculous that is.

Oh wait. Who am I talking to?

d'oh

Anyway, now that this has dropped off page one (about as quickly as I expected, really) we can all go home.

I'd like to thank the folks from CSN for their contributions. Surely you have convinced everyone of your rectitude. All will bend before the justice you mete out.

Nah....just kidding.

Most folks still think you're idiots.