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Dark Templar Reparations

Goose

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I was asking for 30,000 in technology in reparations from any source DT could get it. Legacy agreed to accept 20,000 and 10,000 was to be sent to The Commonwealth. This was met with threats from DT for an expanded war. DT optionally entered into war with The Commonwealth and her allies. There are consequences for optionally going to war with people, and those consequences should be expected when you enter a war with no obligation to do so. Their great loyalty to LoSS had them come asking for peace with us after a week of war, with no consideration for whether LoSS got peace or not.

Throughout the peace process I've consistently lowered the amount and severity of the reparations demanded only to have DT lower their offer again and again. They've made a concerted effort to smear me and The Commonwealth to the world with half-truths and lies. They've sent messages to our membership urging them to revolt against the government. They've offered their ally's declaration on NPO (unasked for and unwanted by The Commonwealth) in return for peace. They've threatened us and our allies with escalation by allies that have agreed to not re-enter the conflict and those as yet uninvolved. They've been underhanded and dishonest throughout the entire peace process. This is why I am demanding reparations and will continue to do so.

I am done backing down. I am done being threatened. I am done negotiating. I am done being fair and reasonable to those that would not return the kindness. If you wish to escalate things, do it and watch your alliances burn to the ground. If you want to smear me, it has been done. If you want your allies to declare war on NPO, I don't care if they do or not. The Commonwealth stands.

The terms stand at 30,000 technology paid by DT nations paid to the combined nations of Legacy and The Commonwealth. During the period that DT is paying reparations they will not carry standing navies or nuclear arsenals. No more negotiating. No more middle-men. No more anything. Surrender or burn.



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And we're not just claiming or insinuating that your government took advantage of the hacking. We're quoting your government saying so. It's not a guess. It's a fact. Your sudden amnesia is even evidence that your membership and government realize that using the results of hacking was the wrong thing to do. Which is a bit of "too little, too late".

my gov and myself and others have all stated that the hacking was wrong. as for the SS of your membership, i do not believe we initially knew that ya'lls forums were hacked when they were put up. simply looked like one of your members took SS and put it up.

the fact that you are saying that DT had nothing to do with the hacking but that are using leaked SS encouraged the hacker to continue hacking... wait, i sense a logical fallacy somewhere in there. the hacker did what they did because of CSN not DT. the hacker hacked your forums because they obviously don't like the actions you are taking in game. while hacking is not the solution to it, that is the path they took. that had nothing to do with DT other than the hacker most likely assuming we are the victim of extortion. i don't support nor condone the hacking as i don't think anyone in DT does despite your claims otherwise.

ya'll got hacked. that sux. using the OOC hacking of your forums in an attempt to garner IC sympathy and an IC advantage over DT is pathetic. not to mention using the OOC hacking as a reason to continue IC actions against DT is even more pathetic.

to my knowledge my gov used the SS once. and that was it. ya'll keep stating that your membership now supports the reps, so fine. they support the reps. the key difference between the results of the hacking and the hacking itself, is the results are IC and the hacking is OOC. you are using an OOC action in an attempt to vilify DT and that in and of itself is wrong. that is an OOC attack.

DT and others using the IC results, (i.e. the knowledge that there was dissent within CSN) is IC. that is a huge difference. no one to my knowledge proclaimed the hacker to be a hero or any such nonsense. instead everyone i saw has condemned the hacker including DT.

i doubt that had it been DT that was hacked and for some reason there was a thread of DT members shouting down Myworld and our gov for not taking the reps and establishing peace, that CSN would go, "oh, those SS were gained from hacking, so we won't use it as a bargaining chip to get peace". i highly doubt that would be the case. instead, ya'll would condemn the action, while using the results as propaganda to show that DT members no longer support the war. i am pretty sure you will state otherwise, but i have a feeling that since you cannot unforget what you saw in the SS, you would have a pretty hard time not utilizing the information gained from them.

the difference i see is that i doubt DT would go around and insinuate that CSN had anything to do with the hacking or even with simply encouraging it. we would simply try and find the hacker as best we can and leave it at that. DT does not sink to using OOC attacks against their opponents.

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Sorry, I left out that Goose added some more security features, and upgraded the forum software so the hackers could no longer use whatever exploit they were using. The shifting of the member opinion is completely irrelevant.

Honestly I know how much you guys dislike us, but this pin the tail on the hacker game is ridiculous.

what does the extra features Goose added have to do with what i stated? ya'll the ones who keep trying to insinuate it was DT who had a hand in the hacking. or as it appears, are encouraging people to hack CSN...

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So when are you paying your reps to LoSS then?

We're paying them to LoSS right now. They asked for our bombs. We're giving them as many as we can as fast as we can. We are a little worried that there will not be time to give them all that they deserve in the time frame they've given us for reps, though.

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what does the extra features Goose added have to do with what i stated? ya'll the ones who keep trying to insinuate it was DT who had a hand in the hacking. or as it appears, are encouraging people to hack CSN...

At this time, dochetard, it's pretty clear that you can tell the difference between what you're saying and what we're saying, so there isn't a lot of point in going in circle.

DT did encourage future hackings by attempting to profit from its ill-gotten gains. And no matter how often you claim you didn't know, the words of the gov of DT betrays that as a lie.

If something comes from OOC then it's OOC. "Yes, I used a cheat code to make my guy have a billion tech, but the war was IC so stop complaining." This guy used a cheat code. You know he used a cheat code. And you still took his help. That was a mistake.

And we're not trying to garner sympathy. We don't need sympathy. No one is asking for anyone to feel bad for us that we'll have to clean the ashes of your nations off our shiny boots. The only one here trying to get sympathy is DT. And we're simply pointing out exactly how full of crap DT's government is. And frankly, given the mountain of evidence we have for it, proving DT's gov is full of crap is relatively easy task. All I can say is thank you to all involved for making it so easy.

We know that the story that myworld is giving in private and the story that myworld is giving in public do not match. So do you. And unfortunately, you can't keep your membership from reading this and forming their own opinions. If you're lucky, they'll encourage DT's gov to put their egos in check and surrender. Or, perhaps, they'll simply choose to stand with you and burn. At least this way, they'll have the information to make a choice. We're happy to provide it. You're welcome.

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At this time, dochetard, it's pretty clear that you can tell the difference between what you're saying and what we're saying, so there isn't a lot of point in going in circle.

DT did encourage future hackings by attempting to profit from its ill-gotten gains. And no matter how often you claim you didn't know, the words of the gov of DT betrays that as a lie.

If something comes from OOC then it's OOC. "Yes, I used a cheat code to make my guy have a billion tech, but the war was IC so stop complaining." This guy used a cheat code. You know he used a cheat code. And you still took his help. That was a mistake.

And we're not trying to garner sympathy. We don't need sympathy. No one is asking for anyone to feel bad for us that we'll have to clean the ashes of your nations off our shiny boots. The only one here trying to get sympathy is DT. And we're simply pointing out exactly how full of crap DT's government is. And frankly, given the mountain of evidence we have for it, proving DT's gov is full of crap is relatively easy task. All I can say is thank you to all involved for making it so easy.

We know that the story that myworld is giving in private and the story that myworld is giving in public do not match. So do you. And unfortunately, you can't keep your membership from reading this and forming their own opinions. If you're lucky, they'll encourage DT's gov to put their egos in check and surrender. Or, perhaps, they'll simply choose to stand with you and burn. At least this way, they'll have the information to make a choice. We're happy to provide it. You're welcome.

wow. nice insult mate. glad to see that you are mature enough to just attack the argument instead of attacking the person. good on ya.

now as for your argument. i stated that at first we did not know. after that all i said was that the results (i.e. SS) was IC while ya'll continue to attack DT OOCwise. this includes claiming we are encouraging any future hacking against CSN. this is blatantly false as i could have sworn some gov members have stated they don't condone the hacking. (ya'll in CSN seem huge on how a gov member represents the alliance, i find it funny that you choose to ignore this while at the same time claiming it)

the SS were clearly IC. trying to make them OOC is ridiculous. the hacking itself was OOC and should never have happened. the SS were IC though. no matter how you spin it, the content of the SS were IC, alliance forums are typically split into IC and OOC sections and it is clear that this was an IC forum. thus, the SS were IC. you need to learn how to separate the two.

i would guess that outside of your allies, most don't feel the same about DT's gov. sure, DT's gov screwed up occasionally, it happens. behind everything we are all humans and thus, mistakes happen. the fact that you seem to think that ya'll have done nothing other than prove ya'll are extortionists and incapable of maintaining a single story for longer than a week is quite funny.

you do realize i am a DT member and i fully support my gov. i would fully support my gov if they told CSN to go $%&@ themselves sideways. ya'll burning alongside us mate. and to boot- whereas CSN has lost around 20 members (ya'll gained a member from GOD), we have lost not a single member of DT (the original 47 that were part of DT are all still there, we simply gained 3 more members.) most of our members are much smarter than ya'll in CSN give those who read the forums credit for. it appears ya'll think everyone are imbecilic and incapable of intelligent thought. if you didn't ya'll would not post the garbage ya'll do.

for example- you would not continue to OOC attack DT by stating we encourage anyone to hack CSN. it is crap like that that prove all you are trying to do is garner sympathy in an attempt to turn the PR tide against DT instead of CSN. i doubt anyone actually thinks DT has ever encouraged the hacking of CSN.

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wow. nice insult mate. glad to see that you are mature enough to just attack the argument instead of attacking the person. good on ya.

now as for your argument. i stated that at first we did not know. after that all i said was that the results (i.e. SS) was IC while ya'll continue to attack DT OOCwise. this includes claiming we are encouraging any future hacking against CSN. this is blatantly false as i could have sworn some gov members have stated they don't condone the hacking. (ya'll in CSN seem huge on how a gov member represents the alliance, i find it funny that you choose to ignore this while at the same time claiming it)

the SS were clearly IC. trying to make them OOC is ridiculous. the hacking itself was OOC and should never have happened. the SS were IC though. no matter how you spin it, the content of the SS were IC, alliance forums are typically split into IC and OOC sections and it is clear that this was an IC forum. thus, the SS were IC. you need to learn how to separate the two.

i would guess that outside of your allies, most don't feel the same about DT's gov. sure, DT's gov screwed up occasionally, it happens. behind everything we are all humans and thus, mistakes happen. the fact that you seem to think that ya'll have done nothing other than prove ya'll are extortionists and incapable of maintaining a single story for longer than a week is quite funny.

you do realize i am a DT member and i fully support my gov. i would fully support my gov if they told CSN to go $%&@ themselves sideways. ya'll burning alongside us mate. and to boot- whereas CSN has lost around 20 members (ya'll gained a member from GOD), we have lost not a single member of DT (the original 47 that were part of DT are all still there, we simply gained 3 more members.) most of our members are much smarter than ya'll in CSN give those who read the forums credit for. it appears ya'll think everyone are imbecilic and incapable of intelligent thought. if you didn't ya'll would not post the garbage ya'll do.

for example- you would not continue to OOC attack DT by stating we encourage anyone to hack CSN. it is crap like that that prove all you are trying to do is garner sympathy in an attempt to turn the PR tide against DT instead of CSN. i doubt anyone actually thinks DT has ever encouraged the hacking of CSN.

Saying you don't condone theft while you're watching a stolen TV just makes you a hypocrite and a liar. If you take advantage of the results of an OOC attack, then you condone it. It's not complicated. You had a chance to say you don't condone the action and you had the chance to show you don't condone the action. You chose to show you DO condone the action while saying you don't. At this point, no amount of whining about how it's not your fault will change that. Go watch your stolen TV. It's under the rubble of your nation.

By your same argument, if I someone hacked into my nation and gave me 100K tech and then I attacked you with it, you'd have no problem. Because war is IC, right? Don't worry, I'd definitely SAY I was against the hacking.

Your members do communicate with us, you know? We know that they've been lied to. We know that many of them are unhappy with the fact that you've thrown them on the pyre of myworld's ego. We know that they see through the dishonest claims you made on the OWF. So don't give me this talk about us posting "garbage".

I'll offer you the same challenge I've offered everywhere else. Where are the logs of you supporting LoSS instead of trying to run out on them? Quote a log with us where you defended LoSS rather than insulted them. Quote a log where you showed even a moment's concern for their peace process. They should be easy to find. Finding logs of them looking out for DT is extremely easy. Why is it so hard to find logs where you guys support them?

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Oh, and you're right, we're burning right next to you. We're absolutely suffering. I mean in the past week, we've lost almost 2K NS per member. That's just like what you guys are experiencing, right? You guys haven't lost more than 7K per member in that time, have you?

I got news for you. In a boxing match where I punch you five times for every one time you punch me, it's not me getting beat up right along side you. That's a butt-kicking by every definition. You guys have nothing left in the tank. Soon you won't have a nation left in my range there are 20 nations ranked higher than me. You're out of nukes. You're out of land. And you're quickly running out of infra. If that's "burning along side of you" then I hope I burn right next to my opponents in every war from now on.

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Saying you don't condone theft while you're watching a stolen TV just makes you a hypocrite and a liar. If you take advantage of the results of an OOC attack, then you condone it. It's not complicated. You had a chance to say you don't condone the action and you had the chance to show you don't condone the action. You chose to show you DO condone the action while saying you don't. At this point, no amount of whining about how it's not your fault will change that. Go watch your stolen TV. It's under the rubble of your nation.

By your same argument, if I someone hacked into my nation and gave me 100K tech and then I attacked you with it, you'd have no problem. Because war is IC, right? Don't worry, I'd definitely SAY I was against the hacking.

Your members do communicate with us, you know? We know that they've been lied to. We know that many of them are unhappy with the fact that you've thrown them on the pyre of myworld's ego. We know that they see through the dishonest claims you made on the OWF. So don't give me this talk about us posting "garbage".

I'll offer you the same challenge I've offered everywhere else. Where are the logs of you supporting LoSS instead of trying to run out on them? Quote a log with us where you defended LoSS rather than insulted them. Quote a log where you showed even a moment's concern for their peace process. They should be easy to find. Finding logs of them looking out for DT is extremely easy. Why is it so hard to find logs where you guys support them?

1) the SS were dropped on the forums. basically you are stating anyone, including CSN, who read them now condones the hacking of CSN forums. bravo.

2) no, if i use the SS does not mean i condone the hacking. Police make use of informants and snitches all the time. these informants and snitches are usually drug addicts and petty criminals. does this mean Police now condone petty crimes and drug use? seriously, come up with better !@#$ mate. this is just getting pathetic.

4) if someone hacked your nation and gave you 100k tech, you would not be able to hit me. in fact, you would only be able to hit people within 150 ranks of you and since you would be #1 it would be impossible for you to hit me. but for your example, if i were to be the #1 until you got hacked and you became #1 and you hit me. no i would not be pissed as admin would pretty much take care of your 100k tech. this means that i would not have to worry bout it. if someone were to hack the DT forums and pass on SS to CSN, i would not think that CSN was condoning or supporting the hacking even if they used the info given to them. say what you will but i can separate OOC from IC. nor would i wish to OOC attack CSN since there would be no proof that they had anything to do with the hacking and i highly doubt that CSN would actually condone the hacking of anyone's forums.

5) we don't need logs to show our support of LoSS. the fact that we declared war on Legacy is all the proof needed. if we did not support LoSS, we would have told them no and stayed out of this. instead, what happened? oh yeah, we declared war on Legacy knowing CSN would more than likely declare war on DT. :o but yes, we clearly don't support LoSS.

6) we have been coordinating and talking to LoSS since then. we don't honestly care if CSN believes us or not. fact is, LoSS knows where DT stands and DT knows where LoSS stands. what CSN believes is frankly, a source of amusement. the fact that ya'll continue to twist, distort, and spin a single line from an IRC log into this huge and incredible thing is amusing. though it shows the depths ya'll would stoop to try and justify your actions. just like the depth you are trying to go to continuously OOC attack DT.

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Oh, and you're right, we're burning right next to you. We're absolutely suffering. I mean in the past week, we've lost almost 2K NS per member. That's just like what you guys are experiencing, right? You guys haven't lost more than 7K per member in that time, have you?

I got news for you. In a boxing match where I punch you five times for every one time you punch me, it's not me getting beat up right along side you. That's a butt-kicking by every definition. You guys have nothing left in the tank. Soon you won't have a nation left in my range there are 20 nations ranked higher than me. You're out of nukes. You're out of land. And you're quickly running out of infra. If that's "burning along side of you" then I hope I burn right next to my opponents in every war from now on.

yes, the fact that ya'll took more damage than DT means nothing. ya'll have taken twice the amount of damage that DT has taken (and for an alliance that started off with 3 times the membership...) means that if you spread said damage and spread it over your 131 members, it will be more. but from what i can tell, not all your members are fighting. the damage is concentrated on less.

but lets look at things the way you do. we are running out of infra you say? we have 4,432.74 infra per member compared to CSN's 3,618.02 infra per member. now, anyone who knows warfare, knows that infra is not that important as it can be rebought easily and is cheaper the lower you go. now tech is far more important as it is harder to come by. for tech, DT averages 2680.94 tech per member and CSN averages 2004.54 tech per person. and in the last week CSN has actually lost 4,844 ns per nation (total of 634,601 NS lost this past week), not the 2k you claim.

so it looks like ya'll ain't doing as much as you think. nor doing nearly as well as you think. but keep it up mate.

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1. The admin deleted them from the forums. Why? Because they recognize they're OOC. Also, our issue isn't with you seeing them. Our issue is with you using them to your advantage. Openly using them, no less.

2. Yes, in fact, it does mean that. If they take advantage of the bad acts of people, they are, in fact, encouraging those bad acts. That's why they don't do so unless they'll be preventing an even worse act. In this case, what greater OOC action is it that you were preventing?

4. Way to avoid the point. The reason the admin would remove the tech is because it gives me an unfair advantage. That's the same reason the admin removed the SS. Hmmm... seems like it's a pretty good comparison. In this case, however, the SS don't need to remain on site in order to be used, so the admin, despite recognizing them as OOC, can't prevent you from utilizing them despite their efforts.

5. You not only don't "need" them, you don't have them. And you declared on legacy and then asked for peace almost immediately. You came without LoSS. You never even made any attempt at all to secure peace for them. I notice your "evidence" for how you're looking out for them is mentioning something that happened before you pretty obviously tried to abandon them. Do you, perhaps, have any examples that are from after you insulted them and after you attempted to abandon them? We both know if we'd given you white peace that day, you'd have peaced out, without LoSS even being a consideration. But you're welcome to prove me wrong. You must have just a tiny bit of evidence, yes?

6. Yes, we get that you need them. Not exactly the best evidence, eh? LoSS is supporting you. Not the other way around. LoSS is standing by you. Not the other way around.

I'm offering you opportunity after opportunity to show some support for LoSS and unsurprisingly you cannot. You can claim it's just one line, but it was a conversation where you guys dismissed LoSS and any concern for them, insulting them along the way. At no time did you reverse that position. At no time did you include them in peace talks. At no time did you show a unified front.

And, it's an OOC attack to mention the screenshots and their source, but it's not utilize them to try to secure white peace and an apology? It's an OOC attack to mention the screenshots' source, but it's not to utilize them to try and drive a wedge between our members and our government? Interesting reasoning there. If the screenshots were acceptable to utilize IC then why did the admin delete them?

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yes, the fact that ya'll took more damage than DT means nothing. ya'll have taken twice the amount of damage that DT has taken (and for an alliance that started off with 3 times the membership...) means that if you spread said damage and spread it over your 131 members, it will be more. but from what i can tell, not all your members are fighting. the damage is concentrated on less.

but lets look at things the way you do. we are running out of infra you say? we have 4,432.74 infra per member compared to CSN's 3,618.02 infra per member. now, anyone who knows warfare, knows that infra is not that important as it can be rebought easily and is cheaper the lower you go. now tech is far more important as it is harder to come by. for tech, DT averages 2680.94 tech per member and CSN averages 2004.54 tech per person. and in the last week CSN has actually lost 4,844 ns per nation (total of 634,601 NS lost this past week), not the 2k you claim.

so it looks like ya'll ain't doing as much as you think. nor doing nearly as well as you think. but keep it up mate.

Yes, what was your tech average a week ago? What was your infra average a week ago? I can tell you that your ANS a week ago was 10K higher than us. It's now 5K higher than us. In a week, it will be lower than ours. And so on.

Your NS on the 15th, when your largest guys finally came out of peace mode and we locked onto them was 1.991kk. It's currently 1.640kk. That's 7K per nation exactly, despite 17 of your nations not even coming out of peace mode in all that time. That's is a beating by any standard. In the same time our starting NS was 3.912kk. It's now 3.603. That means our 130+ nations have lost less NS than your 50 nations. Not the best outcome in a war, I'd say. It also means that in the time it took us to take 7K per nation in your AA you managed to take less than 2K per nation. If we go back to the 13th, like you did, your nations lost 10K per member. That was with all of your largest nations in PM for the first three days. That is a beat down.

And you can say all you like how much infra doesn't matter and how easy it is to rebuy, but it matters when you're AT WAR. Which you are. Your nations are quickly being less able to sustain an army and a navy (and thus an air force) and nukes than we are. Our 130+ nations over 1200 nukes. The nations of DT and LoSS combined don't have 2/3rds that number. In your AA, you have just about 100 nukes among the people who aren't in peace mode (and please, please, please, let the others come out and play, that would be even better). You don't even have enough to put us in all in anarchy for just one day. We could keep your nations in anarchy for the rest of the month.

But, hey, don't take my word for it. As I said, give us some time to consider your offer. How does two weeks sound? Let's look at the results then. I'm sure you're have lots to say about what a good position you guys are in then. Your gov knew it was time to surrender weeks ago. Your position has not improved with time. Nor will it.

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1. The admin deleted them from the forums. Why? Because they recognize they're OOC. Also, our issue isn't with you seeing them. Our issue is with you using them to your advantage. Openly using them, no less.

2. Yes, in fact, it does mean that. If they take advantage of the bad acts of people, they are, in fact, encouraging those bad acts. That's why they don't do so unless they'll be preventing an even worse act. In this case, what greater OOC action is it that you were preventing?

4. Way to avoid the point. The reason the admin would remove the tech is because it gives me an unfair advantage. That's the same reason the admin removed the SS. Hmmm... seems like it's a pretty good comparison. In this case, however, the SS don't need to remain on site in order to be used, so the admin, despite recognizing them as OOC, can't prevent you from utilizing them despite their efforts.

5. You not only don't "need" them, you don't have them. And you declared on legacy and then asked for peace almost immediately. You came without LoSS. You never even made any attempt at all to secure peace for them. I notice your "evidence" for how you're looking out for them is mentioning something that happened before you pretty obviously tried to abandon them. Do you, perhaps, have any examples that are from after you insulted them and after you attempted to abandon them? We both know if we'd given you white peace that day, you'd have peaced out, without LoSS even being a consideration. But you're welcome to prove me wrong. You must have just a tiny bit of evidence, yes?

6. Yes, we get that you need them. Not exactly the best evidence, eh? LoSS is supporting you. Not the other way around. LoSS is standing by you. Not the other way around.

I'm offering you opportunity after opportunity to show some support for LoSS and unsurprisingly you cannot. You can claim it's just one line, but it was a conversation where you guys dismissed LoSS and any concern for them, insulting them along the way. At no time did you reverse that position. At no time did you include them in peace talks. At no time did you show a unified front.

And, it's an OOC attack to mention the screenshots and their source, but it's not utilize them to try to secure white peace and an apology? It's an OOC attack to mention the screenshots' source, but it's not to utilize them to try and drive a wedge between our members and our government? Interesting reasoning there. If the screenshots were acceptable to utilize IC then why did the admin delete them?

1) iirc the SS did not redact any personal info such as IP addresses and the like. those being OOC would be the reason for the deletion, not the content of the SS as you keep claiming. but keep on trucking mate. it is amusing watching you foam at the mouth.

2) well for us, we were using the information in an attempt to stop CSN from extorting us. for us, that is all the reason we need as that is a crime in our books. if you don't like it, too bad. it however does not mean that DT supports or condones hackers and i guarantee if we found out the identity of the hacker, we would gladly and quickly hand it over to CSN and Goose for ya'll to deal with. but yes, again keep foaming at the mouth and keep OOC attacking us mate.

3) wow, i can tell i was tired as i missed this number....

4) actually, it would be because your nation was hacked. not because the 100k gives you an unfair advantage. if you had legitimately gained 100k tech though in-game actions (or even utilizing donations and the bonus gained from recruiting people to CN) then admin would not take it from you regardless of the unfair advantage it gives you. if you think that admin will delete things because they give an unfair advantage, then Umbrella would have lost a lot of tech to ensure that anyone Umbrella hit would not be at such a disadvantage. please, this is just truly ignorant mate and shows you don't know nearly as much as you think you do.

5) yes i know the crap you and others in CSN have spewed forth. no need to vomit that reasoning out again. and actually, i highly doubt we would have peaced out without LoSS. so no, i can honestly say that i don't know that we would have taken such a course as i don't see it as even remotely conceivable. i have already deconstructed the line you and others are using and shown that your interpretation requires a huge logical leap to get to that point.

also, i will tell you right now, you can't prove a negative. fact is, when peace talks did occur, the first thing from CSN was 40k tech from DT. so we will never truly know what would have happened and it is obvious you have your line of thinking and i have mine. the difference between you and me though, i am actually in DT and i have known TiTaN, Myworld, and Supa for a long ass time. none of them are known for simply ditching allies in the middle of a war. but you can use your logical leap of an interpretation while i use my knowledge of the people and the alliance i am actually in. that is all the evidence i need. it would be like me saying that if CSN was on the other end, it would ditch Legacy to save its own ass. i highly doubt that because regardless of how i feel about CSN, i do feel that they are not cowards and would not ditch an ally. but ya'll need all the propaganda ya'll can get, so i see why you continue down this avenue despite such weak ass evidence ya'll keep presenting.

6) what is funny is that if we wished to ditch LoSS and were such infra-huggers, how come we are still at war? DT has had plenty of opportunity to end this war and save our infra but we haven't. i don't get ya'lls line of reasoning that we are somehow infra-hugging cowards who shy away from war and are willing to ditch an ally in order to preserve our infra and escape war, but we are still at war and have fought for well what 19 days now since that log was taken? now how is that for a logical fallacy? it is quite the conundrum for ya'll to explain. how is it that we are still at war when according to ya'll, we are infra-hugging cowards willing to ditch an ally to leave this war?

your evidence lacks severely simply because of that. it also lacks, because regardless of what ya'll state, us coming in to help LoSS shows that we support LoSS. again, if we did not, as ya'll continue to suggest, why would we have come in against Legacy at all? how about ya'll refute that for once instead of discarding it as "trivial because it happened before the massive spin and interpretation we put on a single line of a log occurred". fact is, you can't. if you acknowledge that we showed support for LoSS by getting involved in this war to defend LoSS, then you have to acknowledge that more than likely we aren't going to throw them by the wayside. frustration occurs between allies, which is what TiTaN shows, but just because TiTaN was frustrated does not mean that we are going to throw LoSS under the bus. you state you keep giving me all these opportunities to give you evidence, and frankly, i don't need it. ya'll need to show much better evidence than a single line that ya'll have massively twisted in your interpretations to prove your own case. fact is, you have that single line. that is it. nowhere in that line is there a statement saying that DT wants to peace out and leave LoSS on the battlefield. the only place that line occurs is in the heads of CSN. ya'll are purposely interpreting it that way because of the huge PR disaster you are facing. thus, you need to vilify and demonize DT and you took that single line and twisted it all around in order to do so. the fact that it is so blatantly obvious to anyone who knows the least bit about DT shows how idiotic that twisted interpretation is. but again, it is fun seeing you foam at the mouth at what little bit of scrap of anti-DT PR ya'll come up with.

7) and it is an OOC attack to continue to state that DT encourages the hacking of CSN forums. that is an OOC attack. using IC information is IC. stating that DT encourages or basically condones and supports someone hacking CSN's forums is an OOC attack. the fact that you still are incapable or unwilling to see the difference is alarming. as such, i am done with you. i refuse to be caught up in debating with someone who cannot distinguish fantasy from reality. until you become capable of such, i will not respond to you and please stop responding to me.

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Holy !@#$ im dumber for reading some of the arguments in here. Are you seriously trying to say that DT is worse for using posted public things in their negotiations. Yes if those SS had been sent to DT privately and they tried to use them, then maybe youd have something. Those SS were posted on the OWF a public area where all saw it. They didnt steal anything they broke no rules. It also appears your trying to paint DT as the hackers, back that up or shut up its a pathetic attempt to try and smear DT.

You want to talk about private face public face, look in the mirror. Both sides have been hard headed. You talk about backing people in to a corner CSN started this off by making stupid demands. DT is an easy alliance to work with. While they were on the winning side last time at no point did they ever try and shove stupid !@#$ down our throats and is one of the reasons we developed such a good friendship. CSN you are doing nothing more than to try and make an enemy out of someone who could have cared less about CSN 3 months ago. Bravo folk it will help to keep people warm at night.

As far back as I can remember CSN has always been a reasonable alliance why the change now.

Liz i enjoyed our talks over the last few days you have been great to work with one on one. I cant speak to the group meetings but I will say privatly you have been easy and receptive. I hope to get a phone call soon to help facilitate the end to this stupid situation.

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Oh, don't worry. I'm not mad. Not only did you not garner the support you were hoping for, nor did you get our membership to revolt like you were going for, but you gelled support behind us and we get to have the fun of grinding you into dust. Anyone who was waffling before isn't now. Our members have gotten more active. And you're getting crushed.

Nothing you were going for in using the screenshots or the OWF was accomplished. Not one thing.

We've attempted repeatedly to give you an out for this and each time you've spit in our face. Well, now, feel free to spit on my boot as I march over you. It'll help me clean the ashes of your nation off of it.

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1. The admin deleted them from the forums. Why? Because they recognize they're OOC.

No, admin deleted them because they featured IP addresses. Screenshots or any information which contain IP addresses get deleted here.

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