Notes from Baghdad Bob

Negotiating means finding a middle ground. No middle ground has been established since they don't know how to negotiate.

The trail of offers:

Theirs:

1. 40k paid by your nations with 2k+ over 3 months

Our response:

A. White Peace

Theirs:

2. Back to #1

Ours:

B. 30k by anyone, 10k purchased by anyone in DT and sent to CSN over 6 months.

Theirs:

3. 30k by anyone, 10k from DT by 2k+ tech nations.

Ours:

C: Back to B

Theirs:

4. No answer initially.

Theirs 30 hours later:

5. We accept your counter-offer.

Ours:

E: That's off the table. Now the terms are white peace with apology, no re-entry for all involved parties.

Theirs:

Back to B

Ours: White peace, apology optional. Same no re-entry clause.

Theirs:

Back to B

Ours:

Something between 40k and nothing.

Theirs: They walk away.

No no no. Let's do this without the spin. I fixed this all for you. This is the FACTUAL account of what happened, no spin included.

By the way, you never took the offer off the table until CSN came back to accept it.

Looks like, from this rundown, negotiations were going smoothly until you took the unreasonable jump from 40k tech to CSN accepting white peace and apologizing. That's what killed negotiations, and it was YOUR move that did it. Until this point you were all negotiating pretty well. CSN had given up several concessions.

DT has been the only one actually attempting to negotiate in good faith. have you not read the logs?

The logs, and the rundown, are pretty clear: CSN made several concessions on the terms to help DT out. They didn't ask for any other concessions from DT besides actually paying the reps. And had you come back with a number that was even in the ballpark they might have agreed to it. Something like 30k tech total with 10k paid by DT would have been a steep but fair counter-offer, and CSN may have accepted. Instead, you responded so arrogantly that they closed negotiations.

. so, now that i have proven you are lying with this argument, can you please stop stating you are not lying.

So I'm lying because you only value activating a couple of treaties on your side? I'm not lying at all. You have more treaties on OUR side than YOUR side, yet you activated on the side against us. This is a FACT and it can not be disputed. Period. It's in stone. Not debatable.

you are also omitting the fact that CSN at first refused those terms offered by DT. thus, with the refusal, the terms were removed from the table. Then after the terms were removed, CSN finally decided to accept said terms.

Actually, they didn't refuse them! They never gave a refusal OR acceptance of the terms, but CSN did not intend to accept them initially, you ARE right on that. Please show me where the terms were officially removed from the table, or where CSN officially refused the terms. If you can prove that they were officially refused then I'll admit that you're right on this. As it is, they just took a long time getting back with accepting the terms (and by 'a long time' I mean like, a day.)

Still no 'lies'.

DT then countered with white peace (yes how unreasonable is that...) and an apology

This is EXTREMELY unreasonable. Seriously, if you're negotiating the price of something and they're asking $40,000 and you respond with "I'll pay you zero dollars and you apologize to me!" the seller is just going to walk away. Period. That's not negotiating. At all.

this is of course completely contrary to how CSN does it, which is obviously reasonable, by making a demand, then stubbornly sticking to it for a while, then negotiating a bit,

Uhh actually CSN literally changed the terms around for DT. They weren't 'stubbornly sticking to them'. This, too, is factual and can not be debated. You're wrong. CSN CLEARLY worked with DT and changed terms around. You're so far from reality it's hilarious. And now you're just making !@#$ up.

(so it appears to not be CSN's idea to actually negotiate)

CSN accepted comments from all concerned parties, but in the end it was up to CSN. And that's why they negotiated. And now, CSN has stopped negotiations. If they were so scared of other alliances, would they just shut down negotiations the other day? And frankly, this, too, is a factual statement: CSN has been willing to negotiate. They clearly have since they've been, you know, negotiating. Quite a bit.

None of my arguments have been 'trashed' by you, because my arguments are factual in nature.

FACT: CSN has been negotiating. PERIOD.

FACT: CSN has been making concessions to help along terms. PERIOD.

FACT: CSN accepted the counter-terms ONE DAY after they were offered. The terms had not been officially taken off the table, and CSN had not officially rejected the terms. In fact, the ONLY official response to DT's counter terms was to accept them. PERIOD.

FACT: DT had more allies on this side, but chose to active an ODP on the other side. PERIOD.

These are FACTS, and cannot be 'trashed' or 'disputed'. They're simply the truth. It's really that simple.

yeah no spin except not acknowledging that Goose himself stated that this:

Ours:

B. 30k by anyone, 10k purchased by anyone in DT and sent to CSN over 6 months.

Theirs:

3. 30k by anyone, 10k from DT by 2k+ tech nations.

Ours:

C: Back to B

Theirs:

4. No answer initially.

Theirs 30 hours later:

5. We accept your counter-offer.

(the bolded part) is a lie. They had refused and that is what is usually meant when you walk out instead of responding. but of course, yours is "factual" despite again refusing to acknowledge the truth of the matter. and there is no spin despite you revising what actually happened.

That is not nearly the sole reason. It's not even the main reason. The main reason is that DT attacked during peace negotiations (and in case you're curious no, LoSS was not asked to pay reps). Next you have that they attacked Legacy looking for an easy fight, then tried to back out after we made it clear we wouldn't let them do that. Then of course there's the complete refusal to negotiate in good faith (which is admittedly a new issue).

The ODP is more of a capstone on all that.

You better check your facts, there was no peace talks in motion when DT entered as stated by Goose in his logs and confirmed by LoSS.

No no no. Let's do this without the spin. I fixed this all for you. This is the FACTUAL account of what happened, no spin included.

By the way, you never took the offer off the table until CSN came back to accept it.

Looks like, from this rundown, negotiations were going smoothly until you took the unreasonable jump from 40k tech to CSN accepting white peace and apologizing. That's what killed negotiations, and it was YOUR move that did it. Until this point you were all negotiating pretty well. CSN had given up several concessions.

Don't spin what you don't know. The negotiations were killed the moment CSN walked way from our 30k/10k offer. So back to square 1. Back to seeking White Peace. CSN wants to negotiate then lets see a negotiation take place cause they haven't done anything to suggest a middle ground deal.

(the bolded part) is a lie. They had refused and that is what is usually meant when you walk out instead of responding. but of course, yours is "factual" despite again refusing to acknowledge the truth of the matter. and there is no spin despite you revising what actually happened.

^^Provide logs and I'll retract my statement. Otherwise I'm right and you're wrong. Period. End of discussion.

P.S. Read the rest of my post where I tear apart your arguments with LOGIC and FACTS.

I've had this challenge out there for a while: Prove that the shortened logs I provided do not tell the tale of why the terms were rejected by DT in any substantial way.[/Quote]

Your snippet of logs

[22:54] <TiTaN> Anyways, what's up?

[22:54] <Goose|warmonger|> Where do we stand on a peace agreement. You'd offered 30k from anywhere and 10k internally, which we agreed to yesterday.

[22:55] <Myworld[DT]> With you walking away from it wasn't an agreement

[22:56] <Goose|warmonger|> I know, and I mentioned to TiTaN yesterday that we'd agree to it. Am I right in assuming that you no longer wish to agree to this?

[22:56] <TiTaN> Correct

[22:56] <Myworld[DT]> you walked off when it was on the table the other day. You come back to us after update and what to do it? Is unacceptable.

[22:57] <Goose|warmonger|> It was not a matter of update, but getting in touch with people and discussing it.

[22:57] <Myworld[DT]> There was no mention of you or anyone talking about it.

[22:57] <Myworld[DT]> You left the channel

[22:57] <Myworld[DT]> without a word

[22:58] <Goose|warmonger|> We need to let you know any time we discuss peace terms amongst ourselves? At the time, we were not planning on accepting it. We discussed it and decided it would be acceptable.

-snip-

[23:00] <Myworld[DT]> So now time to come to better terms

[23:01] <Goose|warmonger|> I'm guessing you have a new proposal?

[23:02] <Myworld[DT]> White Peace, and apology to those still fighting on extending this war longer than it has. We all go our ways not to enter into this conflict again.

First thing, there are no dates. So you can say in your little OP that they were “accepted” way faster than they were. That’s your first attempt to persuade the average on-looker to your favor.

It goes on to show that they (DT) say they pulled the terms from the table because they walked off, but without dates or times this again looks bad for them. And when goose says yesterday, it also fits your notion of only one update had passed, not two days.

You conveniently skip over the whole context of how and why they (DT) were pulling the reps off the table. Then you show Goose saying they accepted it, but never show him leaving the room and telling them anything about why he left the room.

So your first snippet of logs looks pretty bad, because you cherry picked which parts to show.

And also give them white peace to allow them to re-enter the war on another front.

You make this statement in your OP, but I don’t see in your logs. Are you intentionally spewing stuff just to make the other side (DT) look bad? Because you didn’t back up your claim in the logs you cherry picked from. You also go on to say.

What they HAVEN'T found important for the public to know is that CSN accepted these the next day... but then DT changed their minds and decided that instead, their only offer on the table is CSN surrendering to them.[\quote]

Again where is it in the logs they ask them (CSN) to surrender. Also without dates or context the next day does seem kind of implicating that they weren’t willing to negotiate in good faith. But again with the only cherry picked logs in the op, it’s easy to make those accusations and mis-lead a public without the full logs.

(In full disclosure (something you WON'T get from DT)) they later dropped the 'apology' term and changed it to pure white peace).

You FULL disclosure? You didn’t even post the full logs, someone from DT did, that my friend is full disclosure. But ok lets go have a look at their (DT) logs and compare them to your OP and statements.

Session Start: Wed Feb 09 19:56:18 2011

Session Ident:#BaconEaters

[19:56] ->> You joined channel #BaconEaters

[19:56] ->> Channel created on 2/8/2011 11:55:57 PM

[19:57] <Myworld[dt]> howdy

[19:57] <@Liz> Hello hello

[19:57] <TiTaN> yo

[19:57] <Goose|warmonger|> Welcome back.

[19:57] <Myworld[dt]> yup

[19:57] <TiTaN> just got home from work

[19:57] <TiTaN> sup?

[19:58] <Myworld[dt]> I take it that we're all ready to talk and get to a reasonable end?

[19:58] <Goose|warmonger|> So, we've discussed the terms, and have come up with 30,000 tech. from any source (up to half of which may be paid at a rate of $3M/100 tech. at your discression), and 10,000 technology from your nations over 2,000 technology.

[20:00] <Goose|warmonger|> The timeline, we're flexible with.

[20:00] <Myworld[dt]> Why do you think we have to be given reps?

[20:00] <Goose|warmonger|> Because you entered on a front where we had already offered white peace to LoSS. Your entry was unwarrented and unnecessary.

[20:01] <Myworld[dt]> Well there was no peace accepted

[20:01] <Myworld[dt]> And wasn't going to be accepted

[20:02] <Myworld[dt]> So unwarranted in your view is your opinion, but not from LoSS's point of view to ask us to back them up.

[20:02] <Myworld[dt]> We've had to deal with "Ghost" nations from other AA's joining in under your aa to attack us.

[20:03] <Myworld[dt]> But yet CSN wants us to pay reps?

[20:06] <Goose|warmonger|> Yes.

[20:07] <Myworld[dt]> But yet your ally Legacy doesn't want them? And we declared on them. You asked for your war by declaring on DT.

[20:07] <Myworld[dt]> Most good allies found suite of the primary alliance that they came in to defend.

[20:08] <Myworld[dt]> *follow

[20:08] * Goose|warmonger| shrugs

[20:09] <Goose|warmonger|> While they may be willing to overlook it, I am not. You hit our treaty partner where your involvement could not have improved the outcome for LoSS in the least.

[20:10] <TiTaN> We honor treaties, regardless of the outcome

[20:10] <Myworld[dt]> I'd say that it did help them as both CSN and Legacy did see more loss in NS during our involvement.

[20:10] <TiTaN> I don't see why that is a difficult concept to grasp lol

[20:10] <Myworld[dt]> We followed a valid treaty to help LoSS our friends.

[20:11] <@Liz> You agree to 40k yesterday.

[20:11] <@Liz> Today we lower those and you debate it?

[20:11] <@Liz> Are you dense?

[20:11] <Myworld[dt]> huh? When did we agree to 40k?

[20:12] <@Liz> You might want to work on those communication issues.

[20:12] <TiTaN> We did, however it had to come from an outside source

[20:12] <TiTaN> the issue here is that you are trying to make it come from 2k or more nations

[20:12] <@Liz> Less than the 40k we wanted from your 2k nations initially.

[20:12] <@Liz> It's gracious. Consider it such.

[20:12] * Goose|warmonger| (Goosewarm@coldfront-FD7916C.pason.com) has left #BaconEaters

[20:12] <TiTaN> I don't see why it has to come from 2k tech nations, though?

[20:13] <@Liz> Goose has left the building. I guess we're done here.

[20:14] <TiTaN> k

[20:18] <@Liz> So TiTaN, what kinda sperrys do you rock

[20:18] <TiTaN> I have some pix

[20:18] <TiTaN> one min lol

[20:18] <@Liz> I just helped majik pick out a pair a few weeks ago.

[20:18] <@Liz> Junior year and he's buying his first pair. Been around for 2 years. For shame.

[20:20] <TiTaN> http://i1129.photobu...THES/sperry.jpg

[20:20] <TiTaN> those are my most recent

[20:20] <TiTaN> I have the oatmeals and brown ones too

[20:21] <@Liz> Oh I like those.

[20:21] <@Liz> I hate hate hate black sperrys.

[20:21] <@Liz> So much.

[20:21] <@Liz> Love the color though

[20:22] <TiTaN> yeah i wouldn't rock the black ones lol

[20:28] <Myworld[dt]> So is he coming back to contine talks?

[20:31] <Gibsonator21> <~Goose|warmonger|> If he's sincere about working out a schedule to pay the reparations I'll return, if he wants to debate the merits of us wanting reps, I've got better things to do.

[20:31] <Myworld[dt]> We'll agree to 10k of tech paid at a rate of 3m/100 from any nation from any source over a 3 month time frame.

[20:32] <@Liz> Total total?

[20:32] * Goose|warmonger| (xxxx) has joined #BaconEaters

[20:32] <@Liz> 10k total*

[20:32] <@Liz> my friggin delete button sucks.

[20:33] <Myworld[dt]> Yes 10k tech total

[20:33] <Carta> I'm here now btw

[20:33] <Carta> >.>

[20:34] <Goose|warmonger|> So, you go from willing to pay the 40k from any source yesterday down to only 10k from any source today?

[20:35] <Myworld[dt]> Which one of us said we'd pay 40k of tech to CSN. We didn't have talks yesterday with you.

[20:36] <@Liz> [20:10] <Myworld[dt]> huh? When did we agree to 40k?

[20:36] <@Liz> [20:11] <Liz> You might want to work on those communication issues.

[20:36] <@Liz> [20:11] <TiTaN> We did, however it had to come from an outside source

[20:36] <@Liz> [20:11] <TiTaN> the issue here is that you are trying to make it come from 2k or more nations

[20:38] <@Liz> Communication issues again?

[20:38] <Carta> So why 10k tech direct sending? And not buying?

[20:39] <Myworld[dt]> Apparently, cause I wasn't aware we hand any offical talks with CSN yesterday?

[20:39] <@Liz> Well, I'd work on that. It seems to be the trend in this war.

[20:40] <@Liz> The official offer is what now?

[20:40] <Carta> Liz.

[20:40] <Myworld[dt]> Cause I didn't agree to 40k before last night and still wouldn't and not even close to accepting 30k.

[20:40] <Goose|warmonger|> 40k total tech. 30k from any source. 10k coming from the nations with over 2k tech.

[20:41] <@Liz> Thanks Goose.

[20:41] <Goose|warmonger|> Then why the hell is TiTaN telling us you'd accept teh 40k in reps if it can come from any source?

[20:41] <Carta> Again.

[20:41] <Carta> Why 10k coming from nations with over 2k? tech?

[20:41] <@Liz> Because its the term we stipulated.

[20:41] <@Liz> If you don't like it you don't have to accept it.

[20:41] <Goose|warmonger|> Because we want them to have a little less tech.

[20:42] <Carta> Ah okay thanks

[20:42] <Carta> Dont give me a piss poor answer Liz

[20:42] <Carta> Thank you goose

[20:42] <@Liz> Lol. I'll give whatever answer I damn well please.

[20:43] <Carta> :rollseyes:

[20:44] <Myworld[dt]> If you want 40k of blood tech then it will come from anyone we want it to come from at any size over a 6 month time frame.

[20:45] <Goose|warmonger|> 10k will have to come from your nations over 2k, and a 6 month timeframe would be acceptable.

[20:45] <Myworld[dt]> Will will come from any size

[20:45] <Myworld[dt]> No limit

[20:46] * Liz is now known as Liz[CSnowN]

[20:47] * Liz[CSnowN] is now known as Liz

[20:48] <Myworld[dt]> 30k from anywhere, 10k from DT from any nation, over 6 months.

[20:53] <Carta> I to be honest, don't see point unless CSN has some grudge with us, why for the 10k from DT directly. If we buy you the tech I don't see the difference?

[20:53] <Carta> Unless as I said you have a grudge with us and want to make this personal

[20:54] <Goose|warmonger|> It got personal when you declared on our former protectorate, and MDP partner that was fighting at our side on a front where white peace was offered already.

[20:54] <Myworld[dt]> And wasn't accepted due to TIO

[20:54] <TiTaN> They declined the peace lol

[20:54] <Carta> They don't seem to think it is, seeing as they want to give us white peace, have talked of a cease fire

[20:55] <Carta> So, I'm glad we have cleared it up that this is personal.

[20:55] <Myworld[dt]> Especially when we have friends in Legacy as well.

[20:56] <Carta> And not strictly business. So it's all opinions and emotion based for these terms

[20:56] <Myworld[dt]> Many of them were part of alliances that were in NOIR.

[20:57] <Carta> So.. what do you say on us just buying you tech? instead of sending you tech?

[21:00] <Carta> You will get the tech you are asking for none the less

[21:06] <Carta> *cricket*

[21:07] <Goose|warmonger|> We're pretty set on 10k from your 24 nations over 2k tech.

[21:07] <Myworld[dt]> Balls in your court guys: 30k tech from anywhere, 10k purchased by DT sent to CSN, over a 6 month time frame.

[21:25] <Goose|warmonger|> 30k tech. from anywhere, with 10k form your 24 nations that have over 2,000 over a period of 6 months.

[21:25] <Myworld[dt]> Balls in your court guys: 30k tech from anywhere, 10k purchased by DT sent to CSN, over a 6 month time frame.

[21:25] * Goose|warmonger| (xxxx) has left #BaconEaters

[21:29] <Myworld[dt]> You guys still get your tech no matter how you it comes to you. It's bad enough that you'll look silly taking reps when the primary alliance is not asking for it.

Lets break down your statements compared to these logs.

DT has absolutely NOT been willing to work with CSN. In fact, the last round of negotiations, CSN accepted DT's counter-offer. DT responded by withdrawing the offer. CSN went to see what their NEW offer would in order to work with them again to find a fair amount they could pay. DT's counter offer? "You give us complete white peace, except that you also publicly apologize to everyone on this side of the war".

[19:58] <Goose|warmonger|> So, we've discussed the terms, and have come up with 30,000 tech. from any source (up to half of which may be paid at a rate of $3M/100 tech. at your discression), and 10,000 technology from your nations over 2,000 technology.

Right off the bat, he goes with some high numbers and an outrageous stipulation from only antions with 2k tech can pay.

[quoite] [20:11] <@Liz> You agree to 40k yesterday.

[20:11] <@Liz> Today we lower those and you debate it?

[20:11] <@Liz> Are you dense?

[20:11] <Myworld[dt]> huh? When did we agree to 40k?

[20:12] <@Liz> You might want to work on those communication issues.

[20:12] <TiTaN> We did, however it had to come from an outside source

[20:12] <TiTaN> the issue here is that you are trying to make it come from 2k or more nations

[20:12] <@Liz> Less than the 40k we wanted from your 2k nations initially.

[20:12] <@Liz> It's gracious. Consider it such.

After they talk about why they (CSN) deserves the reps, we have Liz start targeting their (DT) communication “issues”. Then she acts all tough and says “It’s gracious. Consider it such,” That doesn’t look to be negotiating in good faith.

[20:12] * Goose|warmonger| (Goosewarm@coldfront-FD7916C.pason.com) has left #BaconEaters

[20:12] <TiTaN> I don't see why it has to come from 2k tech nations, though?

[20:13] <@Liz> Goose has left the building. I guess we're done here.

[20:14] <TiTaN> k

If you follow the logs it shows that they tried to engage them (CSN) on why the tech most come from 2k and above nations. Goose responds by leaving the negatations, and the MoFA says, “I guess we are done here.” Seems like CSN wants to negotiate and it is the ones in DT who don’t, if you can’t tell that’s sarcasm.

[20:34] <Goose|warmonger|> So, you go from willing to pay the 40k from any source yesterday down to only 10k from any source today?

[20:35] <Myworld[dt]> Which one of us said we'd pay 40k of tech to CSN. We didn't have talks yesterday with you.

[20:36] <@Liz> [20:10] <Myworld[dt]> huh? When did we agree to 40k?

[20:36] <@Liz> [20:11] <Liz> You might want to work on those communication issues.

[20:36] <@Liz> [20:11] <TiTaN> We did, however it had to come from an outside source

[20:36] <@Liz> [20:11] <TiTaN> the issue here is that you are trying to make it come from 2k or more nations

[20:38] <@Liz> Communication issues again?

[20:38] <Carta> So why 10k tech direct sending? And not buying?

[20:39] <Myworld[dt]> Apparently, cause I wasn't aware we hand any offical talks with CSN yesterday?

[20:39] <@Liz> Well, I'd work on that. It seems to be the trend in this war.

[20:40] <@Liz> The official offer is what now?

[20:40] <Carta> Liz.

[20:40] <Myworld[dt]> Cause I didn't agree to 40k before last night and still wouldn't and not even close to accepting 30k.

[20:40] <Goose|warmonger|> 40k total tech. 30k from any source. 10k coming from the nations with over 2k tech.

[20:41] <@Liz> Thanks Goose.

We see here again that Liz is attempting to tell them that they (DT) have communication problems to the leader of the alliance. Seems like they’re under the guise of oh well you accepted it last night it’s not our problem if you have communication issues. Again great ability to talk to people there, Liz.

[20:41] <Carta> Why 10k coming from nations with over 2k? tech?

[20:41] <@Liz> Because its the term we stipulated.

[20:41] <@Liz> If you don't like it you don't have to accept it.

[20:41] <Goose|warmonger|> Because we want them to have a little less tech.

[20:42] <Carta> Ah okay thanks

[20:42] <Carta> Dont give me a piss poor answer Liz

[20:42] <Carta> Thank you goose

[20:42] <@Liz> Lol. I'll give whatever answer I damn well please.[\quote]

He asked a perfectly reasonable answer and had his head bitten off by Liz. That again doesn’t look like DT is having the problem being reasonable and have a decent decorum thought these logs. It shows Liz and CSN being un-resonable.

[21:00] <Carta> You will get the tech you are asking for none the less

[21:06] <Carta> *cricket*

[21:07] <Goose|warmonger|> We're pretty set on 10k from your 24 nations over 2k tech.

[21:07] <Myworld[dt]> Balls in your court guys: 30k tech from anywhere, 10k purchased by DT sent to CSN, over a 6 month time frame.

[21:25] <Goose|warmonger|> 30k tech. from anywhere, with 10k form your 24 nations that have over 2,000 over a period of 6 months.

[21:25] <Myworld[dt]> Balls in your court guys: 30k tech from anywhere, 10k purchased by DT sent to CSN, over a 6 month time frame.

[21:25] * Goose|warmonger| (xxxx) has left #BaconEaters

Oh wow, they come up with a counter offer, Goose runs off. Yup it’s their (DT) entire fault for not negotiating in good faith.

Your next statement.

No, I'm not making this up. CSN accepted DT's counter-offer, which they then withdrew. DT's idea of 'working with CSN'? CSN must surrender to THEM. And also give them white peace to allow them to re-enter the war on another front. CSN rightly told DT where they could stick those terms. DT absolutely refuses to negotiate in good faith, demanding, instead (as I have been saying for days now) white peace.

OK let’s get to the logs, but let me point something out at first. You say they must surrender to them, in your second sentence. Ok we can break that lie of yours with the full logs. We can also break your fallacy of them wanting to join in on another side. Hint it doesn’t come up. I already killed your theory of them not negotiating in good faith with the other set of logs. But I digress, let’s get to the second part of the logs no shall we.

Session Start: Fri Feb 11 19:23:23 2011

Session Ident:#BaconEaters

[19:23] ->> You joined channel #BaconEaters

[19:23] ->> Channel created on 2/10/2011 8:26:01 AM

[19:30] * Goose|warmonger| (xxxxx) has joined #BaconEaters

[20:32] * Liz is now known as Liz[CSNotHere]

[20:53] <Goose|warmonger|> So, where are we on the agreed upon reps?

[21:01] <Gibsonator21> Supa_Troop3r[DT], Myworld[DT], TiTaN?

[21:04] <Myworld[DT]> Their AFK for awhile

[21:05] <Myworld[DT]> So I'm really the only one on line currently.

[21:06] <Myworld[DT]> But as far as the reps from the other day, there's no agreement there.

[21:06] <Goose|warmonger|> Okay.

[21:19] * Gibsonator21 is now known as Gibby[Query]

[21:24] * Goose|warmonger| (XXXXX) Quit ( Quit: )

[21:32] <Myworld[DT]> one is at the movies, and the other is at the casino

[21:33] <Myworld[DT]> They'll be back eventually here.

[22:19] * Gibby[Query] is now known as Gibsonator21

[22:36] * Liz[CSNotHere] is now known as Liz

[22:51] * GeneralOzujsko[DT] (XXXXX) has joined #BaconEaters

[22:52] <Myworld[DT]> ok guys sorry for the waiting. You guys up for it now?

[22:53] * Goose|warmonger| (XXXXX) has joined #BaconEaters

[22:53] <Myworld[DT]> Hey Goose|warmonger| sorry for the waiting them and the fun outside

[22:54] <Goose|warmonger|> Fun outside?

[22:54] <TiTaN> lol

[22:54] <TiTaN> I was outtttt son

[22:54] <TiTaN> It's friday night o/

[22:54] <TiTaN> Anyways, what's up?

[22:54] <Goose|warmonger|> Where do we stand on a peace agreement. You'd offered 30k from anywhere and 10k internally, which we agreed to yesterday.

[22:55] <Myworld[DT]> With you walking away from it wasn't an agreement

[22:56] <Goose|warmonger|> I know, and I mentioned to TiTaN yesterday that we'd agree to it. Am I right in assuming that you no longer wish to agree to this?

[22:56] <TiTaN> Correct

[22:56] <Myworld[DT]> you walked off when it was on the table the other day. You come back to us after update and what to do it? Is unacceptable.

[22:57] <Goose|warmonger|> It was not a matter of update, but getting in touch with people and discussing it.

[22:57] <Myworld[DT]> There was no mention of you or anyone talking about it.

[22:57] <Myworld[DT]> You left the channel

[22:57] <Myworld[DT]> without a word

[22:58] <Goose|warmonger|> We need to let you know any time we discuss peace terms amongst ourselves? At the time, we were not planning on accepting it. We discussed it and decided it would be acceptable.

[22:59] <Myworld[DT]> At least a note that you would need to discuss it would of been acceptable

[22:59] <Liz> Hey TiTaN

[22:59] <Liz> Whats up man

[22:59] <TiTaN> Heya

[22:59] <TiTaN> Nothin

[22:59] <TiTaN> about to go back out here soon

[22:59] <TiTaN> you?

[23:00] <Liz> Doing my make up and trying to go out haha.

[23:00] <Goose|warmonger|> My apologies, but we did not leave with the intent of discussing it, but refusing it.

[23:00] <Myworld[DT]> ok so it wasn't an agreement then

[23:00] <Goose|warmonger|> No, it wasn't.

[23:00] <Myworld[DT]> So now time to come to better terms

[23:01] <Goose|warmonger|> I'm guessing you have a new proposal?

[23:02] <Myworld[DT]> White Peace, and apology to those still fighting on extending this war longer than it has. We all go our ways not to enter into this conflict again.

[23:03] <Liz> @##$% off.

[23:03] <Liz> That's really it.

[23:03] <Liz> @##$%. Off.

[23:03] <Liz> We're going to burn you into the ground now.

[23:03] <Liz> Have a happy day! <3

[23:04] <Liz> Go !@#$%* on the OWF about that now.

[23:04] <Liz> I could use a few more queries.

[23:04] <Myworld[DT]> Got a better idea lets hear it?

[23:04] <Liz> And while you're at it. Go get some help.

[23:04] <Liz> Cuz you'll need it.

[23:04] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> Goose

[23:04] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> this is an opportunity for CSN to save face.

[23:05] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> We all know you're not neo-hegemony.

[23:05] <Liz> I believe, I was not unclear.

[23:05] <Liz> When I said.

[23:05] <Liz> @##$%. Off.

[23:07] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> Listen, the apology isn't that important. Take the white peace.

[23:07] <Liz> No, buddy. You're the one in a bad spot here.

[23:07] <Liz> Not us.

[23:07] <Liz> You take our terms or @##$% off now.

[23:07] <Liz> Thats the deal.

[23:07] <Goose|warmonger|> Wait, you really want us to apologize?

[23:08] <Myworld[DT]> This could of been done and over with long ago when TIO got out.

[23:08] <Liz> But its not

[23:08] <Myworld[DT]> If you don't that's fine

[23:08] <Liz> and now you die.

[23:08] <Liz> kthx.

[23:08] <Goose|warmonger|> It could have been done and long ago before you declared.

[23:08] <Myworld[DT]> I saw doing an apology a way for you to save face and regain some of decency

[23:08] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> Liz, if you can't handle talks, please stop.

[23:09] <Myworld[DT]> If you don't want to do it that's fine. It's not a sticking point for us.

[23:09] <Goose|warmonger|> I'm not interested in you thinking I'm decent, nor the vast majority of the detracters on the OWF.

[23:09] <Liz> Clearly you're delusional if you think we're surrendering or declaring white peace.

[23:09] <Liz> We really dont care. I think you're missing that point.

[23:09] <Myworld[DT]> We're not asking CSN to surrender

[23:09] <Myworld[DT]> We're staying we part ways

[23:09] <Myworld[DT]> *saying

[23:09] <Goose|warmonger|> But you want an apology from us?

[23:10] <Liz> We're not going to do that. Clearly.

[23:10] <Liz> Asking for an apology? Really? Are you that upset?

[23:10] <Liz> Grow up. It's a friggin game of war. You lose you pay for it.

[23:10] <Myworld[DT]> Did I just not say it doesn't matter if you do or don't

[23:10] <Myworld[DT]> If you don't want to then fine

[23:10] <Liz> Good, then we're done here right?

[23:10] <Liz> You refused terms?

[23:10] <Liz> We refused your Bull%^^&**?

[23:10] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> As stated earlier, it's not a sticking point for us. We thought it would be an opportunity for you.

[23:11] <Myworld[DT]> We here to find a point that is acceptible for everyone. Instead of saying @##$% off and call bull%^^&*.

[23:12] <Liz> You clearly knew that would not be acceptable.

[23:12] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> What wouldn't be acceptable?

[23:12] <Myworld[DT]> Then work off it and lets resolve this.

[23:12] <Liz> We gave you our terms.

[23:12] <Goose|warmonger|> So, you go from 48 hours ago being ready to accept 40k in reps and turn that into us apologizing and white peace?

[23:12] <Liz> They have dropped time and time again.

[23:12] <Liz> And then you drop that bull%^&*?

[23:12] <Liz> No.

[23:13] <Liz> That's not only insulting but just outright retarded to even try to offer that.

[23:13] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> Goose, if your MOFA can't handle talks, find one that can.

[23:13] <Liz> Why would we even negoiate? You know our terms. Do we have to go back to the whole, "Burn you into the ground" thing?

[23:15] <Goose|warmonger|> I don't know what has changed your minds so vastly in two days, but at this time we're pretty set on the proposal you made the evening of the ninth.

[23:15] <Myworld[DT]> Liz we know that you have members and allies that don't care for your reps offer to us. Take the moment to listen to them and work to find something that is beatifical and not a outrageous for everyone in CN to accpet.

[23:15] <Myworld[DT]> What changed our minds is this Goose.

[23:15] <Myworld[DT]> Is you walking out of the talks

[23:16] <Myworld[DT]> No communication from you to us that you wanted to talk about it. Walking out meant to us that you didn't accept it.

[23:16] <Goose|warmonger|> I walked out when your offer was on the table and 'take it or leave it' was thrown down. At the time, I decided to leave it. After speaking amongst ourselves, some allies and friends, we decided that it would be acceptable.

[23:16] <Liz> This room has always had a member of CSN in it.

[23:17] <Liz> And Supa has been kind enough to stay as well.

[23:17] <Liz> If not him TiTaN.

[23:19] <Myworld[DT]> Should of said something Goose that you wanted to talk about it. Even after leaving the channel you could of had someone say so. But we didn't hear anything from you until after this update. We figured we were in this for the longer haul with you walking off

[23:21] <Liz> Thats an excuse and you know it.

[23:21] <Myworld[DT]> No excuses

[23:21] <Liz> That is one right there.

[23:21] <Liz> If you were so keen you would have sought us out. Like we have you time and time again.

[23:21] <Goose|warmonger|> There wasn't a plan to do anything at the time but go for the long haul. I've since spoken with some friends, allies, and our government. Shamed came and asked me to accept it. So, between all of that, we've reconsidered and decided to accept it.

[23:23] <Myworld[DT]> If your so sent in reps then you'll need to find a middle ground between that and White peace of CSN and DT walking away.

[23:23] <Gibsonator21> Why? Not two days ago you were in on these reps. Nothing has changed since then.

[23:23] <Liz> I think you will find that is not on the table.

[23:23] <Liz> These are your terms.

[23:23] <Myworld[DT]> 2 days of war has changed

[23:23] <Liz> That we graciously agreed to.

[23:23] <Liz> This is the second time you have renegged

[23:24] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> Not true.

[23:24] <Liz> Very true.

[23:24] <Myworld[DT]> No there was no agreement on the table.

[23:24] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> Seriously, Goose, have some sense of professionalism here.

[23:24] <Liz> You came to us with what you found suitable.

[23:24] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> You know very well there was no agreement.

[23:24] <Liz> We offered that back to you as an agreement.

[23:24] <Gibsonator21> Two days of war changes nothing.

[23:24] <Liz> How is it not agreeable?

[23:24] <Liz> You have like 40 something people in your aa.

[23:25] <Liz> That clearly doesn't amount to the damages you agreed to in terms.

[23:25] <Gibsonator21> We basically let you make your own term, and accepted it a day later.

[23:25] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> You walked away from it.

[23:26] <Myworld[DT]> We had no knowledge of that. You walked away. Not a word to us.

[23:26] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> And if you needed to consider it further, then say so.

[23:27] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> So therefore, there was no agreement upon the conclusion of the last round of talks.

[23:27] <Gibsonator21> That time is over. We walked away not ready to agree to it. We talked with allies/friends/members/everyone who's anyone, and now are ready to agree to that term. Two days have changed nothing.

[23:27] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> We understand, only now, that you needed to talk it over.

[23:28] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> But that means you need to indicate that.

[23:28] <Gibsonator21> Great, we didn't. Either way, we're ready with that offer.

[23:28] <Goose|warmonger|> It wasn't even planned on being talked over.

[23:30] <Goose|warmonger|> I had a chat with Shamedmonkey, with him asking me to reconsider our stance and we did, coming to an agreement that the terms you offered would be agreeable. It was 30 hours after you put them forth that we got word to you about it.

[23:31] <Myworld[DT]> Well when you decided to talk it over you should of said so or come to us asking if it was still on the table. In most talks when a person walks away then the offer is voided.

[23:32] <Goose|warmonger|> We didn't know about even talking it over until shortly before we let TiTaN know that they were acceptable.

[23:32] * Gibsonator21 sighs

[23:32] <Gibsonator21> We're talking in circles.

[23:34] <Myworld[DT]> So tell you what up until the logs from hearing CSN wanted to accept what you walked away. I was thinking of a lower offer to counter with that wasn't white peace. So I give you the opportunity to find that number.

[23:36] <Gibsonator21> I'd rather you guess what we're thinking. Shouldn't be so hard since you provided it for us last talks we had.

[23:37] <Myworld[DT]> Well its not the same number sorry.

[23:40] <Goose|warmonger|> I guess we don't have an agreement, and please note that my leaving means we don't have an agreement and we won't be discussing a lowering of terms any further. Please come find me when you're ready to agree to the terms.

[23:40] * Goose|warmonger| (XXXX) has left #BaconEaters

[23:40] * Gibsonator21 (XXXX) has left #BaconEaters

[23:40] * Liz (XXX) has left #BaconEaters

Now let’s break it down to show were you lied and fabricated in your OP.

Session Start: Wed Feb 09 19:56:18 2011

Session Ident:#BaconEaters

Session Start: Fri Feb 11 19:23:23 2011

Session Ident:#BaconEaters

That’s two days, not one day like you seem to imply in your OP. Almost two complete days, it took for negotiations to start again.

[22:54] <TiTaN> Anyways, what's up?

[22:54] <Goose|warmonger|> Where do we stand on a peace agreement. You'd offered 30k from anywhere and 10k internally, which we agreed to yesterday.

[22:55] <Myworld[DT]> With you walking away from it wasn't an agreement

[22:56] <Goose|warmonger|> I know, and I mentioned to TiTaN yesterday that we'd agree to it. Am I right in assuming that you no longer wish to agree to this?

[22:56] <TiTaN> Correct

He walked away, and now two days later he is back to accept the agreement? It doesn’t work like that. He walked out of the room, more than once may I add.

[23:40] * Goose|warmonger| (XXXX) has left #BaconEaters

[22:58] <Goose|warmonger|> We need to let you know any time we discuss peace terms amongst ourselves? At the time, we were not planning on accepting it. We discussed it and decided it would be acceptable.

[22:59] <Myworld[DT]> At least a note that you would need to discuss it would of been acceptable

[23:00] <Goose|warmonger|> My apologies, but we did not leave with the intent of discussing it, but refusing it.

[23:00] <Myworld[DT]> ok so it wasn't an agreement then

[23:00] <Goose|warmonger|> No, it wasn't.

What you said in the OP

In fact, the last round of negotiations, CSN accepted DT's counter-offer. DT responded by withdrawing the offer.

Ahh, looks like Goose says it was never agreed upon, and they walked out with the intent of refusing it. I know you love to spin everything so you can give them something to read that fits your rhetoric, but again what you posted in the OP doesn’t equate to what is said in the full logs.

(the bolded part) is a lie. They had refused and that is what is usually meant when you walk out instead of responding. but of course, yours is "factual" despite again refusing to acknowledge the truth of the matter. and there is no spin despite you revising what actually happened.

^^Provide logs and I'll retract my statement. Otherwise I'm right and you're wrong. Period. End of discussion.

P.S. Read the rest of my post where I tear apart your arguments with LOGIC and FACTS.

Logs have been provided, and GOOSE has made that statement that there was no agreement. Not only in the logs I provide, but also for the talks with LoSS prior to our involvement, he stated that there was no peace agreement there.

So all this crap of there was an agreement is full of it. No where in the logs do you see DT or CSN both agreeing at the same time that those were good terms for each or did CSN say we would need to talk about it and get back with you. Walking away = No. Anyone that has done any type of negotiating in CN knows this very well that when you walk away you don't get to see the same deal.

When you actually negotiate a peace agreement Penkala then we'll talk, but until then realize that you're idea of talks is failed and you're full of it as much as your spin is here.

Now onto the rest, shall we.

[23:01] <Goose|warmonger|> I'm guessing you have a new proposal?

[23:02] <Myworld[DT]> White Peace, and apology to those still fighting on extending this war longer than it has. We all go our ways not to enter into this conflict again.

[23:03] <Liz> @##$% off.

[23:03] <Liz> That's really it.

[23:03] <Liz> @##$%. Off.

[23:03] <Liz> We're going to burn you into the ground now.

[23:03] <Liz> Have a happy day! <3

[23:04] <Liz> Go !@#$%* on the OWF about that now.

[23:04] <Liz> I could use a few more queries.

[23:04] <Myworld[DT]> Got a better idea lets hear it?

[23:04] <Liz> And while you're at it. Go get some help.

[23:04] <Liz> Cuz you'll need it.

[23:04] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> Goose

[23:04] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> this is an opportunity for CSN to save face.

[23:05] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> We all know you're not neo-hegemony.

[23:05] <Liz> I believe, I was not unclear.

[23:05] <Liz> When I said.

[23:05] <Liz> @##$%. Off.

[23:07] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> Listen, the apology isn't that important. Take the white peace.

[23:07] <Liz> No, buddy. You're the one in a bad spot here.

[23:07] <Liz> Not us.

[23:07] <Liz> You take our terms or @##$% off now.

[23:07] <Liz> Thats the deal.

[23:07] <Goose|warmonger|> Wait, you really want us to apologize?

[23:08] <Myworld[DT]> This could of been done and over with long ago when TIO got out.

[23:08] <Liz> But its not

[23:08] <Myworld[DT]> If you don't that's fine

[23:08] <Liz> and now you die.

[23:08] <Liz> kthx.

I’ll agree the apology thing was off base, but then again I don’t see any surrender to them, no asking to be allowed to enter on another front. Let’s look at your comments again.

No, I'm not making this up. CSN accepted DT's counter-offer, which they then withdrew. DT's idea of 'working with CSN'? CSN must surrender to THEM. And also give them white peace to allow them to re-enter the war on another front.

[23:09] <Liz> Clearly you're delusional if you think we're surrendering or declaring white peace.

[23:09] <Liz> We really dont care. I think you're missing that point.

[23:09] <Myworld[DT]> We're not asking CSN to surrender

[23:09] <Myworld[DT]> We're staying we part ways

Whelp. So are you still going with the line that everything you said has been truthful, no fabrication, and no lie?

Let’s continue shall we.

[23:10] <Liz> We're not going to do that. Clearly.

[23:10] <Liz> Asking for an apology? Really? Are you that upset?

[23:10] <Liz> Grow up. It's a friggin game of war. You lose you pay for it.

[23:10] <Myworld[DT]> Did I just not say it doesn't matter if you do or don't

[23:10] <Myworld[DT]> If you don't want to then fine

[23:10] <Liz> Good, then we're done here right?

[23:10] <Liz> You refused terms?

[23:10] <Liz> We refused your Bull%^^&**?

Oh my it looks like DT is not acting in good faith there, shame on them.

[23:12] <Goose|warmonger|> So, you go from 48 hours ago being ready to accept 40k in reps and turn that into us apologizing and white peace?

[23:12] <Liz> They have dropped time and time again.

[23:12] <Liz> And then you drop that bull%^&*?

[23:12] <Liz> No.

[23:13] <Liz> That's not only insulting but just outright retarded to even try to offer that.

[23:13] <GeneralOzujsko[DT]> Goose, if your MOFA can't handle talks, find one that can.

[23:13] <Liz> Why would we even negoiate? You know our terms. Do we have to go back to the whole, "Burn you into the ground" thing?

[23:15] <Goose|warmonger|> I don't know what has changed your minds so vastly in two days, but at this time we're pretty set on the proposal you made the evening of the ninth.

Why Liz, why indeed? I mean it’s only DT who are acting in good faith and don’t want to negotiate.

Now goose steps in and is level headed and calmly talks, he is actually an example of how it should be done, at least right now in this part of the logs he is.

[23:16] <Goose|warmonger|> I walked out when your offer was on the table and 'take it or leave it' was thrown down. At the time, I decided to leave it. After speaking amongst ourselves, some allies and friends, we decided that it would be acceptable.

[23:19] <Myworld[DT]> Should of said something Goose that you wanted to talk about it. Even after leaving the channel you could of had someone say so. But we didn't hear anything from you until after this update. We figured we were in this for the longer haul with you walking off

[23:21] <Goose|warmonger|> There wasn't a plan to do anything at the time but go for the long haul. I've since spoken with some friends, allies, and our government. Shamed came and asked me to accept it. So, between all of that, we've reconsidered and decided to accept it.

I cut out Liz’s ramblings, because really we’ve seen enough of her and her negotiating skills. But Goose did a decent job right there.

Lets wrap this up.

What they HAVEN'T found important for the public to know is that CSN accepted these the next day... but then DT changed their minds and decided that instead, their only offer on the table is CSN surrendering to them. Convenient that they've left that part out, isn't it? The problem is, if people knew the truth, they might not see DT as the victims in this.

After one update, two full days later. They never accepted anything because they walked out on the negotiations. Where did they ask them to surrender, no were. It’s convenient to leave something out when it never happened. Whelp, you say if people know the truth, they wouldn’t trust DT. But when someone only show’s them apart and subjugated part of the truth, it’s kind of hard for them to come to any other conclusion that what you were pointing them in. Good job on being able to spout rhetoric in a believable way.

But yeah. I'm getting kind of tired of nobody calling DT on their BS, so I will now. That's what really happened: CSN negotiated in good faith with DT and accepted DT's counter offer. DT then withdrew the counter offer and demanded CSN's surrender. All the while, DT's complaining on the OWF that they've offered CSN 40k tech in a different manner, but the big bad CSN refuses to accept. And that's the truth of the situation.

You are wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong. I took your challenge I laid it out for you. You sir have covered up the truth, lied, and fabricated almost everything in your OP. So please, stop lying to everyone here. You made a really good attempt to sway other people to your opinion, and it would have worked until the full logs were released.

First thing, there are no dates. So you can say in your little OP that they were “accepted” way faster than they were. That’s your first attempt to persuade the average on-looker to your favor.

It goes on to show that they (DT) say they pulled the terms from the table because they walked off, but without dates or times this again looks bad for them. And when goose says yesterday, it also fits your notion of only one update had passed, not two days.

You conveniently skip over the whole context of how and why they (DT) were pulling the reps off the table. Then you show Goose saying they accepted it, but never show him leaving the room and telling them anything about why he left the room.

So your first snippet of logs looks pretty bad, because you cherry picked which parts to show.

The logs show the time frame.

And I didn't skip over the context at all. It's right there in the logs. It's literally right here:

[22:56] <Myworld[DT]> you walked off when it was on the table the other day. You come back to us after update and what to do it? Is unacceptable.

[22:57] <Goose|warmonger|> It was not a matter of update, but getting in touch with people and discussing it.

[22:57] <Myworld[DT]> There was no mention of you or anyone talking about it.

[22:57] <Myworld[DT]> You left the channel

[22:57] <Myworld[DT]> without a word

....and only one update HAD passed, not two. My logs give a factually accurate representation of this as well.

Once again, please prove that my logs were misleading in any way. You just proved that my logs DO represent the situation fairly. That's not what I asked for.

Whelp. So are you still going with the line that everything you said has been truthful, no fabrication, and no lie?

Yes, yes I am. Just because Myworld or whoever says "this is not surrendering" doesn't mean they aren't asking for a surrender. Apologizing to DT is clearly surrendering. Period.

I could call the 40k tech "not peace terms" but... they're still peace terms.

Try a better argument.

And once again, you failed my challenge. Prove where my logs do not substantially explain the situation that night. Point it out. I beg of you.

I was going to reply to Penkala's temper-tantrum but I see that his responses have been trashed once again. I have no particular affinity for preying on the mentally-weak.

LOGIC and FACTS? Penkala, you're the Glenn Beck of CN. Congratulations.

I was going to reply to Penkala's temper-tantrum but I see that his responses have been trashed once again. I have no particular affinity for preying on the mentally-weak.

LOGIC and FACTS? Penkala, you're the Glenn Beck of CN. Congratulations.

My arguments are being trashed? HAHAHAHAHA Yes clearly my point that CSN is negotiating has thoroughly been debunked!

I'm literally laying out facts on my last few posts and asking you to prove them wrong and you can't. Because they're facts and can't be proven wrong.

After one update, two full days later.

No. 30 hours later. Period. End of story. Can't be debated. Period. Thirty hours. Not forty-eight. Period.

Look, there ARE things you can debate. Such as "Not getting back to us means you refused." Fine. That's a fair point of view. I happen to disagree, but sure, if you want to consider that CSN's official 'we aren't interested' response, then that's fair.

What you CAN'T debate, though, are the facts: That CSN's been negotiating, that DT's been low-balling, and that CSN responded 1 day after you offered the terms, not two.

My arguments are being trashed? HAHAHAHAHA Yes clearly my point that CSN is negotiating has thoroughly been debunked!

I'm literally laying out facts on my last few posts and asking you to prove them wrong and you can't. Because they're facts and can't be proven wrong.

No. 30 hours later. Period. End of story. Can't be debated. Period. Thirty hours. Not forty-eight. Period.

Look, there ARE things you can debate. Such as "Not getting back to us means you refused." Fine. That's a fair point of view. I happen to disagree, but sure, if you want to consider that CSN's official 'we aren't interested' response, then that's fair.

What you CAN'T debate, though, are the facts: That CSN's been negotiating, that DT's been low-balling, and that CSN responded 1 day after you offered the terms, not two.

If we are low balling them then why was the 30k from anywhere, and 10k purchased from DT and sent to CSN turned down? Not only did they say no, they walked away from it. It was the same amount of tech and they still couldn't agree to it. So now they have to make changes to what they think. We've done what we can to show them what is right or at least point them in that direction. Heck even their allies have been trying to point them in the right direction. Please give them a compass so they can find a proper direction.

If we are low balling them then why was the 30k from anywhere, and 10k purchased from DT and sent to CSN turned down? Not only did they say no, they walked away from it. It was the same amount of tech and they still couldn't agree to it. So now they have to make changes to what they think. We've done what we can to show them what is right or at least point them in that direction. Heck even their allies have been trying to point them in the right direction. Please give them a compass so they can find a proper direction.

I thought I was pretty clear when I referred to your offer of 0 tech as the low-ball offer.

And CSN knows the direction they're going in. It's one in which you remain in war. Pretty simple really.

Oh PLEASE. It was QUITE clear that GR would be on our side. The point is, there are more of DT's allies on our side, and DT knew it. They chose to *disregard this* and join the war not to defend allies (which would have landed them on OUR side of the war) but to take a pot shot at our side of the war.

Anyone who thought GR would remain neutral is not worthy of discussing this topic with me and should exit my blog immediately.

1) than GR shouldn't have told them that they didn't intend to stay neutral. Cause I don't know how relationships work on "your side" between allies. But on my side, when an ally ask me what I intend to do, I don't tell them that I intend to stay neutral if I actually plan on joining a side. And with GR going on the offense after DT got attacked, it's GR that chose not to defend allies but pick a side, not DT. Once again you are a great PR guy for your side. You claim that DT chose not to defend allies and thereby not ending up on your side, but who should they have defended? Brigade didn't got attacked, NV got attacked but NOIR prevented intervention, Valhalla wasn't in the war, GR told them that they would stay neutral. LoSS was the first NOIR involved and asked for help. Anyone who thinks that DT didn't have a solid CB doesn't even deserve to have a blog on this forum

1) I believe they had a treaty chain that fell through at the last moment, but I'm not sure about the details.

2) So what? DT attacked the side treaties obligated it to defend. Based on a color treaty. Sucks for DT!

3) The reps are not 'enormous' and DT was willing and able to pay them.

4) CSN was only asking 10k from DT in total, and 30k from any other source. No stipulation upon who from the alliance can pay them.

1) LoSS attacked hydra who only has treaties with SLCB and NSO. so they didn't have one, unless you make a chain of several alliance and than you could also find a MDoAP chain for DT to attack legacy if you go beyond 2 steps.

2) still drunk? who got attacked? Do you consider NV to be on your side now or what?

3) yes ofcourse and the entire OWF agrees on it, both your allies and your opponents all think these reps are deserved

4)not in the beginning, and that's what got CSN to get dragged thru the mud on the OWF. they wanted 40k tech from the 2ktech+ nations

Oh PLEASE. It was QUITE clear that GR would be on our side.

Actually at the time DT first began talking about declaring war for LoSS, GR was talking about hitting MK. This is a fact.

Once again you are a great PR guy for your side.

I'm not a "PR Guy". I just tell the truth and bring the facts. Deal with it.

2) still drunk? who got attacked? Do you consider NV to be on your side now or what?

No, I'm not drunk. And I'll always consider NV on 'my side' for your information.

3) yes ofcourse and the entire OWF agrees on it, both your allies and your opponents all think these reps are deserved

No, not everybody agrees, but plenty of people find what CSN is doing to be the correct course of action. I'm one of those people. They negotiated in good faith with DT to end this war, giving up a few concessions to find a middle ground. DT's current propositions are unreasonable, so the war continues. It's that simple.

CSN agreed to terms you found acceptable 30 hours previous. You're no longer a victim here. CSN was reasonable, and now it's only DT's stubbornness preventing peace. Not CSN's.

That's just how it is.

No matter how much we bicker about the length of time or whatever to justify things, both alliances will remain at war. CSN remains flexible, but DT isn't into paying reps. So both alliances can continue to enjoy the war. When DT is ready to surrender, I'm sure CSN will work with them to find a fair deal once again.

Sorry, but you're no longer the victim. Enjoy the war.

So I'm lying because you only value activating a couple of treaties on your side? I'm not lying at all. You have more treaties on OUR side than YOUR side, yet you activated on the side against us. This is a FACT and it can not be disputed. Period. It's in stone. Not debatable.

actually, i already gave the breakdown of the treaties that you continue to ignore. so no, it is quite debatable. what you are stating is not fact as there was no treaties on your side for us to activate. LoSS and NV were the only alliances that did not go in aggressively, nor attack an ally of DT's and got hit in return. Most of our allies were not involved or about to leave the war. NV was hit by 2 NOIR alliances which means DT could not enter. Umbrella entered aggressively. Brigade had no one who hit them. so again, you are lying and omitting key FACTS in order to smear DT's name. we had absolutely no reason to enter the war on DH/PB's side.

Actually, they didn't refuse them! They never gave a refusal OR acceptance of the terms, but CSN did not intend to accept them initially, you ARE right on that. Please show me where the terms were officially removed from the table, or where CSN officially refused the terms. If you can prove that they were officially refused then I'll admit that you're right on this. As it is, they just took a long time getting back with accepting the terms (and by 'a long time' I mean like, a day.)

Still no 'lies'.

even Goose stated that by walking out of the talks, CSN had refused the terms. so again, you are lying and omitting a key FACT in order to smear DT's name.

This is EXTREMELY unreasonable. Seriously, if you're negotiating the price of something and they're asking $40,000 and you respond with "I'll pay you zero dollars and you apologize to me!" the seller is just going to walk away. Period. That's not negotiating. At all.

it is as much negotiation as you claim CSN is doing. actually, it is more considering the PR disaster this has turned into for CSN. Then there is the fact that CSN is taking far more damage than DT is. DT was willing to accept the term of 40k tech, just not as CSN wanted. CSN then refused (as confirmed by Goose no matter the lies you attempt to spread on this) but later, after pressure from other alliances CSN accepts. by this time, DT no longer views said term as acceptable. twas CSN's loss. they should have accepted from the get go or stated they needed to discuss the matter. not expect DT to just sit and wait for them. sorry, CSN is not the master of DT no matter how much they or Xiph and others try to assert they are. currently, CSN has 287,603 tech. i wonder how much they will lose before they decide to peace out of this front.

Uhh actually CSN literally changed the terms around for DT. They weren't 'stubbornly sticking to them'. This, too, is factual and can not be debated. You're wrong. CSN CLEARLY worked with DT and changed terms around. You're so far from reality it's hilarious. And now you're just making !@#$ up.

wow, now we can get into how you can't even read. either that or how you ignore key elements of what is stated. reread my post, then get back to me as it is only you who continue to make !@#$ up. here, i will help you as i am figuring that you truly need it:

his is of course completely contrary to how CSN does it, which is obviously reasonable, by making a demand, then stubbornly sticking to it for a while, then negotiating a bit,

the bolded is the part you need to reread over and over until the meaning of those words actually stick in your head. so no, i am not wrong as i stated exactly what you did. you are just too stupid to realize it. then you go on to make !@#$ up about what was actually said and hope no one notices how stupid you are. CSN did not work with DT, CSN was pressured by outside alliances into giving in.

CSN accepted comments from all concerned parties, but in the end it was up to CSN. And that's why they negotiated. And now, CSN has stopped negotiations. If they were so scared of other alliances, would they just shut down negotiations the other day? And frankly, this, too, is a factual statement: CSN has been willing to negotiate. They clearly have since they've been, you know, negotiating. Quite a bit.

None of my arguments have been 'trashed' by you, because my arguments are factual in nature.

CSN did not negotiate, they accepted (after refusing) terms offered by DT. DT negotiated, CSN (after being pressured by outside parties) accepted the terms after they had been withdrawn from the table.

so, CSN has only been willing to negotiate after being pressured though i should state that it is not only outside pressure but pressure from within.

so yes, all of your arguments have been trashed by myself, myworld, Goose, and others over and over again. your arguments are either lies or omit key facts in order to have some sort of leg to stand on. but once those lies and key facts are shown, your arguments are trashed. you simply refuse to see it because you are an idiot.

FACT: CSN has been negotiating. PERIOD.

FACT: CSN has been making concessions to help along terms. PERIOD.

FACT: CSN accepted the counter-terms ONE DAY after they were offered. The terms had not been officially taken off the table, and CSN had not officially rejected the terms. In fact, the ONLY official response to DT's counter terms was to accept them. PERIOD.

FACT: DT had more allies on this side, but chose to active an ODP on the other side. PERIOD.

These are FACTS, and cannot be 'trashed' or 'disputed'. They're simply the truth. It's really that simple.

The terms were off the table the moment CSN walked out of the talks, which Goose even stated was them refusing. FACT. PERIOD. NOTHING YOU CAN DO CAN CHANGE THIS. so that is one of your "facts" that is trashed by Goose himself and yet you continue to not see it.

having allies on one side does not mean that DT is obligated to enter that side. you do realize how many alliances have treaties on both sides right? and how many of them fought on both sides? 1. RIA. also, trashed this as most of DT's allies were not involved or getting ready to peace out of the war. NV (an ally of DT) was hit by Sparta/Darkfall (2 NOIR allies of DT), Umbrella entered aggressively (and since you bring it up Umbrella is also an ODP which given what you are defending, DT would have in fact been wrong to enter using an ODP to defend Umbrella, Sparta, or Darkfall, or any other NOIR ally on your side which is the majority of alliances on your side), and Brigade has yet to be hit.

so, if entering to defend LoSS utilizing an ODP is so wrong, as CSN and you are defending, then obviously most of the allies on your side were ODPs. which means it would have been wrong to enter. unless of course, you are stating that it is okay to enter via an ODP and that CSN had no right to attempt to extort 40k tech from DT for entering via an ODP. which means you are defending them why? Brigade is the only ally of MD+ level on your side. NoR and NV were on the opposite side.

also, as for CSN negotiating, meh. they have accepted some changes that were offered by DT. one change though was too late as they had refused it (aka walked out without accepting it and Goose stated that they had refused them.) but after pressure from outside sources, accepted the now defunct offer.

GR was not on your side when DT entered. they also entered aggressively to attack TPF. so again, you are an idiot. but please keep it up. all you are doing now is trashing what little bit of credibility you may have had.

(the bolded part) is a lie. They had refused and that is what is usually meant when you walk out instead of responding. but of course, yours is "factual" despite again refusing to acknowledge the truth of the matter. and there is no spin despite you revising what actually happened.

^^Provide logs and I'll retract my statement. Otherwise I'm right and you're wrong. Period. End of discussion.

P.S. Read the rest of my post where I tear apart your arguments with LOGIC and FACTS.

read the logs posted by Myworld. there you will see Goose state once (if not twice) that CSN had refused the counter offer initially.

as for the rest, please, there is no logic and only distorted facts or lies in the rest of your post. you keep stating that we have more allies on the other side, yet never respond to my posts stating that none needed DT to defend them and that those in NOIR on your side entered aggressively or hit an ally of DT.

I'm not a "PR Guy". I just tell the truth and bring the facts. Deal with it.

it has been proven time and again that you tell mostly lies that you have deluded yourself into thinking is truth and fact. the fact that logs show Goose stating that they had refused DT's counter offer prove this. the fact that you ignore the fact that no alliance on your side warranted us activating an ODP for (Umbrella entered aggressively, Sparta/Darkfall hit NV) and Brigade, the only alliance at MD+ level with DT on your side has yet to be hit. GR entered after DT did and also has not been attacked. NV, NoR, and LoSS on the other hand entered to defend friends and got hit. NV though got hit by NOIR alliances (Sparta and Darkfall) and thus DT was unable to defend them. NoR was getting ready to leave the war. that left LoSS.

yep, truth and facts. you sure don't have them.

No, not everybody agrees, but plenty of people find what CSN is doing to be the correct course of action. I'm one of those people. They negotiated in good faith with DT to end this war, giving up a few concessions to find a middle ground. DT's current propositions are unreasonable, so the war continues. It's that simple.

they did not negotiate in good faith and only accepted any counter offers due to outside pressure. that is not negotiating in good faith.

CSN agreed to terms you found acceptable 30 hours previous. You're no longer a victim here. CSN was reasonable, and now it's only DT's stubbornness preventing peace. Not CSN's.

That's just how it is.

CSN refused at first and the offer was taken off the table. CSN then accepted after having external pressure placed on them. it has and always will be CSN's greediness that is the cause of the continuation of this war. no matter how you spin it. peace could have been had days ago, if CSN had not been greedy.

No matter how much we bicker about the length of time or whatever to justify things, both alliances will remain at war. CSN remains flexible, but DT isn't into paying reps. So both alliances can continue to enjoy the war. When DT is ready to surrender, I'm sure CSN will work with them to find a fair deal once again.

Sorry, but you're no longer the victim. Enjoy the war.

CSN was never flexible, otherwise the amount could have been negotiated down from 40k. nor would it have taken outside pressure to force them to even accept an altered variation of the payment of the 40k tech. so please stop stating CSN is flexible and willing to negotiate. it is obvious from looking at the logs they have never been either one. if not for outside pressure, i guarantee the terms would still be the original set of 40k tech in 3 months from certain members of DT.

also, we are enjoying the war.

It's a real shame Goose was allowed to hit peace mode.

I think everyone enjoys watching a stubborn dick burn.

Can we just have CSN come out and speak the truth?

"We're issuing these huge reps because we're massive a-holes and we're going to continue to be massive a-holes because we have SF backing"

c'mon you can say it CSN, it's just words, it's not hard.

These reps are insane. If they had a reasonable number this would have been done long ago, but 40k? Really? They want it from 2k+ nations, even SOME of it from 2k+ nations? What ever they're smoking, i want some.

actually Goose has already stated (in the RnR DoW thread) that there were no peace talks going on between LoSS and CSN when DT hit. so can we please stop spreading this falsity around.

I was in those peace talks.

No, I'm not drunk. And I'll always consider NV on 'my side' for your information.

You guys sure had a funny way of showing this

The core of this is that 40k tech was an utterly ridiculous demand from the start and everything else follows from that. It is a shame that SF are apparently giving CSN backing for that demand.