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Let now all lies of multipolarity be put to rest


Schattenmann

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A week or so ago Triyun wrote the blog "The Post Karma Lie of Multi-Polarity." You may have missed it. Like all serious blogs are (as will this one) it was quickly knocked out of sight by the daily swarm of "I'm gay look at me," "What I had for dinner," and "My favorite band" blogs. Ah, well.

I didn't completely agree with the argument as laid out, though the thesis was correct. The idea that there is more than one power pole is a lie. And tonight, with C&G's magnificent acrobatics to join Doomhouse's aggressive war, let now all lies of multipolarity be put to rest.

The simple fact of the matter is that multi-polarity is a lie. Anyone that claims that there are lots of different poles is either lying for some benefit, or is an oblivious idiot. Eyriq from Basketball Ninjas comes to mind.

Right now, it's PB-C&G-DH-SF(If they survive the war and GOD's duplicity) and then a bunch of disparate rag-tag AAs with sloppy foreign policies which just happen to create a big chaining nightmare, not any poles or a second side.

All anyone has to do to see this is read a thread like TGE's declaration of war http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=98249 or any of the surrender threads from the VE curbstomp of Polaris. The alliances supposed to make up the second pole/"side" (I really hate that word but it's the common term recently) all hate each other to the point that they're literally doing the barest minimum in terms of their treaties (those who haven't ignored them) then surrendering to get away and get as much distance from everyone else as possible. There is no second (third, or greater number) pole.

Last night BarbulaM1 remarked that post-war GATO is going to be focusing on really building Synergy; I was aghast. I assume that he knows what he's talking about as a former Assembly Chairman and only recently departed for ODN, but whoever in GATO told him that is an absolute idiot if they think IAA or the rest of Synergy has any interest in strengthening ties with the alliance that hung them out to dry with its surrender.

Many people--smart guys within them included--say that once the war is over Duckroll is going to be a strong second pole or counterweight. Sure, when they feel like it. Their problem is that they are stuck with feet on two ice drifts headed in opposite directions: The old sign-as-many-MDPs-as-possible and the new create-a-small-focused-sphere. Until they plant both feet in the same place, they will continue to be an anachronistic holdover whose allies can count on them for a pat on the back, no less, and certainly no more. But a strong pole? Not hardly. Either way, if anyone thinks Duckroll is big, unified, or smart enough to handle PB-DH-C&G, they're just giving themselves a reassuring hug.

Months ago, I tried to get things going on an independent bloc with some promising AAs from the #stratego channel, noting that with PB then on the horizon, "The sad fact of the matter is that once Pandora becomes the dominant power on Digiterra--and that will be the day the bloc is announced--alliances will begin to align themselves in the Pandora sphere, just as alliances tied themselves to WUT in its time, and Continuum in its. They will trade their values for Pandora's in exchange for security, and they will enable Pandora in exchange for a share in the spoils [reps and gloating]."

Well, here we are. Following the war you can expect a flurry of treaties with C&G and PB alliances. There will be cantankerous cancellations by the alliances which have fought on Polaris' or Pacifica's "sides" leaving those alliances more fractured and vulnerable than before while many of them put on their best crap-eating grins and line up behind those alliances in PB, DH, C&G, and SF that they perceive as big daddies.

And so the march to hegemony will continue on. VE/PB and MK/Doomhouse will pat themselves on the back and laud their strategic acumen, but in reality they have only followed in Papa Orders' footsteps, after all, they can only hope to be as good as the best.

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Name a second pole. Go on, I dare you.

I don't even consider your monstrosity one pole. There is an argument to be made with PB and DH, but SF and C&G are pretty separate entities. I see a pole in Polaris and the alliances who for some reason still trust them, as well as in NPO and the dozen-odd alliances who entered to defend them. Aztec and their affiliates also act as a pole, and the major independents like Sparta, MHA, and Fark can also be trusted to fight on the same side. Poles aren't all the same size, nor do they have the same level of unity. What you seem to be looking for are two large, permanent, evenly matched coalitions, and that probably won't ever happen. (Maybe Warcaft is more your game?)

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considering during Q's time, Q/Cit/SF/1V was basically the dominant force (4 different blocs) and in fact, considering Cit did not much like Q except for TOP, SF had no membership in Q, and 1V had like 3 members in Q (DH has 2 members in PB), i would say it is quite similar to a singular pole as it in the past it was called such.

yours is not even an interesting theory really.

If I recall correctly, Citadel where mostly uninvolved in politics, 1V had four members, and Q could have taken probably the rest of the world alone.

And the theory was Schattenmann's, not mine. Although I agree.

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Last night BarbulaM1 remarked that post-war GATO is going to be focusing on really building Synergy; I was aghast. I assume that he knows what he's talking about as a former Assembly Chairman and only recently departed for ODN, but whoever in GATO told him that is an absolute idiot if they think IAA or the rest of Synergy has any interest in strengthening ties with the alliance that hung them out to dry with its surrender.

Actually, GATO is a tricky alliance to deal with foreign policy wise. I don't even give lip service on these forums so I'll say right here and now I don't plan on leaving GATO at all. I see how we could possible drift apart depending on who wins power in the next elections, but I honestly think the people I want to win have it locked up. If that does in fact happen then yes you'll see Synergy slowly grow closer once again and heal its wounds.

;:snorts:: Maybe you should talk to GATO before you start throwing accusations around. If GATO had actually wanted us to roll with them we would have had their back. And vice versa. Not to mention... I can not double check as CN is down but I beleive you are IAA? How come you did not hit ODN to defend MCXA and TCU? I'm going to go out on a limb here (correct me if i'm wrong) and guess that your allies saw you were occupied fighting on a different front of the war and thus did not call you in to help them. If they *had* called you, i'm sure you would have activated your treaty. Same with us.

edit to add: And I notice Schatt *still* hasn't explained his acrobatic comment. I guess he doesnt have an actual answer.

Actually, Doch is not in IAA. Who we hit was partly me call and I refuse to hit allies of allies. That's why we're not at war with ODN.

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I don't even consider your monstrosity one pole. There is an argument to be made with PB and DH, but SF and C&G are pretty separate entities. I see a pole in Polaris and the alliances who for some reason still trust them, as well as in NPO and the dozen-odd alliances who entered to defend them. Aztec and their affiliates also act as a pole, and the major independents like Sparta, MHA, and Fark can also be trusted to fight on the same side. Poles aren't all the same size, nor do they have the same level of unity. What you seem to be looking for are two large, permanent, evenly matched coalitions, and that probably won't ever happen. (Maybe Warcaft is more your game?)

Thank you, I was certain that I could trust you to demonstrate your ignorance on the matter.

You claim that C&G is a separate entity from PB and Dh, when:

ODN is directly allied to Umbrella, which is PB and Dh

ODN is directly allied to MK, which is Dh

LOST is directly allied to GOONS, which is PB and Dh

LOST is directly allied to MK, which is Dh

Athens is directly allied to MK, which is Dh

Athens is directly allied to PC, which is PB

International is directly alliedied to Fok, which is PB

I mean, I'm upset that you dared to make such a brazenly false claim, I'm insulted.

You claim that Sparta is a major independent, while it is directly allied to Umbrella (Dh, PB), Athens (C&G), GOD (SF), RoK (SF), and ODN (C&G)

Maybe you just didn't know what you were stepping in, maybe you're really that ignorant, I don't know, but I know--and have demonstrated--that you are wrong without even getting into SF, which is just as tied-in.

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If I recall correctly, Citadel where mostly uninvolved in politics, 1V had four members, and Q could have taken probably the rest of the world alone.

And the theory was Schattenmann's, not mine. Although I agree.

You continue to demonstrate your incomprehension. Citadel was directly treatied to Continuum via Grämlins and Old Guard, plus TOP's undying love for NPO. A bloc's number of members has no bearing on its political power (and 1V's was immense), and Q was specifically designed to encompass every power base to create one pole.

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heh. GR and Athens are allied to IAA, where is CnG? oh that is right, helping the other side. ODN/Athens are allied to GATO, where was CnG? again, helping the other side. Athens is allied to TIO, where is CnG? again, helping the other side.

it appears that helping the allies that are on the winning side is clearly the maneuver best suited for CnG.

i would say that given all of that, sure, it is not exactly acrobatics but ya'll simply ignoring any treaty that will put CnG on the losing side.

We gave our support to Poison Clan within the first 24 hours of the initial declaration of war. Burn for Polaris? hahahahaa. No.

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Haha at the suggestion that there was any reason for C&G to roll on the Polar side. For one, Polar has generally treated them terribly. You can find insults of ODN all over the place. They had an incident with =LOST=, canceled GR, no relations with Int, and tried to attack Athens in the past. GATO didn't want to burn for Polar for similar reasons. It has nothing to do with being on the losing side. Polar's crap FA is reason enough.

As for the multipolarity stuff, you failed to kill us. Deal with it.

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Haha at the suggestion that there was any reason for C&G to roll on the Polar side. For one, Polar has generally treated them terribly. You can find insults of ODN all over the place. They had an incident with =LOST=, canceled GR, no relations with Int, and tried to attack Athens in the past. GATO didn't want to burn for Polar for similar reasons. It has nothing to do with being on the losing side. Polar's crap FA is reason enough.

As for the multipolarity stuff, you failed to kill us. Deal with it.

I know I've beat this argument to death by now, but what about those of us who put you up on top? Do we just have to deal with it now that we've been kicked to the other side?

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I know I've beat this argument to death by now, but what about those of us who put you up on top? Do we just have to deal with it now that we've been kicked to the other side?

all hail IAA, creators of PB

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Haha at the suggestion that there was any reason for C&G to roll on the Polar side. For one, Polar has generally treated them terribly. You can find insults of ODN all over the place. They had an incident with =LOST=, canceled GR, no relations with Int, and tried to attack Athens in the past. GATO didn't want to burn for Polar for similar reasons. It has nothing to do with being on the losing side. Polar's crap FA is reason enough.

As for the multipolarity stuff, you failed to kill us. Deal with it.

Nothing to do with my topic, don't care, hope you guys are having fun on the side.

This approach makes absolutely no sense. If you are using "you" in the singular, and addressing me: I have never tried to kill--well, now we get muddly, don't we, since you're in two blocs. I have argued that once your new subservient bloc was made you would do exactly what you are doing, and I have argued war on GOONS, but I have never tried to kill Umbrella or PB or Dh (I actually even missed Dh's founding and wasn't aware of it til after PB was made).

If you are using "you" in the plural (more correctly "you all"), and addressing the world, you still make no sense. The two blocs you're in have existed for, what, 3 months? Your reply is just the ironic product of what I am saying: There is no "you." There is no one to kill you or to try to kill you. Until two weeks ago, no one even had a reason to try, and despite your best efforts, the rivalry you're trying to catalyze is just turning into the big chunks of NS crapping out and walking away.

You have such an idiotic reply and it wouldn't matter if you didn't think it was so clever. Wowwww, you rolled two alliances with fair-weather allies that no one likes using over half the world's NS, you're so cutting edge and good at this! If only we had killed you!

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Everything will slowly merge into the same pole. If you want multiple poles, do it yourself. Even Polaris was tied to SF and the same pole, but that didn't stop the world into splitting into two coalitions when a war hit.

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edit to add: And I notice Schatt *still* hasn't explained his acrobatic comment. I guess he doesnt have an actual answer.

Dunno about you, but I saw it laid out just fine. It's not the treaties you cited, it's the ones you didn't.

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all hail IAA, creators of PB

As soon as I get my time machine built, I'll refuse to help CnG and the rest of you guys when TOP helps. I'll also take GATO, Genesis, STA, NpO, CCC, NV, DT, NoR, TCI, and RoK. Now see how your war comes out.

In other words, imagine if our coalition had Duckroll and TOP. You lose.

Alot of us sacrificed to put you guys were you are now. All we wanted in turn was to still be part of your little group, and instead you kicked us out. You know there was once this red alliance who done that. Then they were put on their ass. Just some food for thought.

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Right now, it's PB-C&G-DH-SF(If they survive the war and GOD's duplicity) and then a bunch of disparate rag-tag AAs with sloppy foreign policies which just happen to create a big chaining nightmare, not any poles or a second side.

You contradict yourself. The fact that they are an ineffectual bunch who are incapable of working together, managing their alliances, or outputting enough damage does not make them any less of a "side". Post war, you may be correct, though there is no way to tell at the moment, but prior to this conflict and as it stands now, yes there are two sides.

It's impossible to ignore that the numbers here were even until damage began to build up and the surrenders started to roll in. This is a game based upon numbers on a screen, after all. Failure to utilize those numbers on our enemies part doesn't change their ontological status, particularly pre-conflict, and the only real thing that failure effects is their ability to win in the present.

The world was multipolar, the other pole failed, and we are currently kicking it in the head. Instead of trying to somehow argue that it never existed due to its new head wounds, you should be thinking of ways to right the mistakes your pole made prior to this conflict. Here's a hint to get you started, something many on our side figured out a long time ago: Posting a lot on the owf doesn't destroy infrastructure. Crazy, right? None of you actually do anything to help your position, either internally or FA wise, with a few exceptions. Rather, you quiver in excitement as a squad of 5-10 people post angry things at our allies and extended network of friends every week or so, then sit back and say "mission accomplished, we got'um good this time!". In case you haven't figured it out after watching the best shot you could possibly have had (i.e. a real live even war) go down miserably in flames, that's not going to cut it. Better your alliance. Better your position. Stop making excuses, "lie of multipolarity" included.

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Either way, if anyone thinks Duckroll is big, unified, or smart enough to handle PB-DH-C&G, they're just giving themselves a reassuring hug.

Well, I'm smart enough to take on PB-DH-C&G all by myself. So add in the other DR guys and that shouldn't be a problem at all. We'll have enough left over intellect to take on both the Orders all over again then eat GPA for dessert. :P

In all seriousness, it was interesting read Schatt. I think its pretty theoretically simplistic, but I always enjoy your writing style. Ever the journalist.

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Nothing to do with my topic, don't care, hope you guys are having fun on the side.

This approach makes absolutely no sense. If you are using "you" in the singular, and addressing me: I have never tried to kill--well, now we get muddly, don't we, since you're in two blocs. I have argued that once your new subservient bloc was made you would do exactly what you are doing, and I have argued war on GOONS, but I have never tried to kill Umbrella or PB or Dh (I actually even missed Dh's founding and wasn't aware of it til after PB was made).

If you are using "you" in the plural (more correctly "you all"), and addressing the world, you still make no sense. The two blocs you're in have existed for, what, 3 months? Your reply is just the ironic product of what I am saying: There is no "you." There is no one to kill you or to try to kill you. Until two weeks ago, no one even had a reason to try, and despite your best efforts, the rivalry you're trying to catalyze is just turning into the big chunks of NS crapping out and walking away.

You have such an idiotic reply and it wouldn't matter if you didn't think it was so clever. Wowwww, you rolled two alliances with fair-weather allies that no one likes using over half the world's NS, you're so cutting edge and good at this! If only we had killed you!

WCE? That was an obvious attempt to kill PB before it was even born. "IT HAS TO BE STOPPED." I don't get where this denial is getting you. Are you going to argue the "we were defending UPN's sovereignty" angle or something? You don't have the out of merely entertaining the notion as a non-government as many others have put out. You're the leader of CoJ and your minister of defense was there. How can you deny having any designs ever? I don't know when you thought you could just walk off and pretend it never happened, but it seems to be the case.

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I know I've beat this argument to death by now, but what about those of us who put you up on top? Do we just have to deal with it now that we've been kicked to the other side?

Who kicked you? You knew what was going on. I mean your bloc partner literally signed with the NPO as well. Xiph did Polar's FA for months and he got fed up with them. That should have been a sign. I mean, IAA can exit the conflict at any time, just as ARES and Genesis have done. No one really has any designs to destroy IAA. If you want to stay in until the end, that's your decision. I don't mind seeing the more hostile alliances like UINE getting beaten, but there was never malice towards IAA.

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As soon as I get my time machine built, I'll refuse to help CnG and the rest of you guys when TOP helps. I'll also take GATO, Genesis, STA, NpO, CCC, NV, DT, NoR, TCI, and RoK. Now see how your war comes out.

In other words, imagine if our coalition had Duckroll and TOP. You lose.

Alot of us sacrificed to put you guys were you are now. All we wanted in turn was to still be part of your little group, and instead you kicked us out. You know there was once this red alliance who done that. Then they were put on their ass. Just some food for thought.

Omni my friend, you are simply among my favorite people on the game. I would do nearly anything I could to help you.

That being said, there is next to nothing about this stance that you were "kicked out" of this side. The fact of the matter is... Polaris was shown the door. You get no argument from me about that. Anyone allied to Polar, and travelling down that road with them, has only themselves to blame. Polar was not just obliviously let go by all the central ties for no reason. Quite the opposite. It was with VERY good reason. Going all the way back to Polar threatening Athens over the Ni! incident. Continuing with Polars ridiculous behavior at the start of, and during, Bi-Polar. Further continuing with their attack on a LOST nation over a one month old gather intel spy op conducted by a newbie nation, with no consideration given to the government of LOST, or to CnG as a whole. The signing of the treaty with Legion, without telling a single ally about it before time, then the reassurances to their allies that Legion are a good ally, and an overall asset to have. I sit, and I look now, at Polar burning, in what even I, find to be a less than terrific CB, and I see the ally that they crapped on all of their other allies for, doing nothing to help them, while those whom were crapped on, burn for them. The problem is not with the people presently fighting Polar, it is with the arrogance of Polar thinking they have to inject themselves into matters that do not concern them, and that they can, with impunity, take militaristic actions against allies of mine, with no repercussions. I am sorry that IAA chose to ignore the totality of they way Polaris has treated so many throughout this planet of ours.

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As soon as I get my time machine built, I'll refuse to help CnG and the rest of you guys when TOP helps. I'll also take GATO, Genesis, STA, NpO, CCC, NV, DT, NoR, TCI, and RoK. Now see how your war comes out.

In other words, imagine if our coalition had Duckroll and TOP. You lose.

Alot of us sacrificed to put you guys were you are now. All we wanted in turn was to still be part of your little group, and instead you kicked us out. You know there was once this red alliance who done that. Then they were put on their ass. Just some food for thought.

Grub was the one who made the decision to help CnG by making peace with \m/, FOK and PC. He sure as !@#$ didn't do it because he loved MK and the alliances that would eventually constitute Pandora's Box.

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I8N4E.gif

Coincidentally, three of my favorite alliances. :awesome:

Again, people keep centering their thought on what MK's membership puts out and forming an MK-centric view on how things unfold. MK wasn't targeting IAA at all. If IAA was not tied to Polar, they couldn't have just run roughshod on Athens. I already blew the whole "MK is destroying alliances because it wants to" to pieces.

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You've been planning a war against PB in general and GOONS in particular since October. That makes at least 2 poles, their side and your side.

[20:11] <~Schattenmann> That is a very good question zog has. Of timing. The question becomes do we wait for Pandora to make things very imposing for anyone that might join in, or do we wait til after and stew in cold war for months or even a year
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The simple fact of the matter is that multi-polarity is a lie.

!@#$, you stole my thunder Schatt. I was going to write a blog on multipolarity, with this point as the central argument.

:P

edit: my arguments are somewhat different from Triyun's and yours though. I might just do it anyway.

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