The Goon Experience

Interesting, either people aren't telling you this or you're not informed or you're lying then.

Not sure which.

So the basis of the objection to the Mercy Board is not that it is degrading, embarrassing, OOC, too much trouble, unneeded, bullying, or any of the other things that people do talk about, but actually something entirealy different that is apparently very common but rarely said?

MM is completely on point in noting that CN is not Pictionary, Scattergories, or some other silly party game. It's a nation simulator. For a lot of people, the whole point is to take it seriously. Otherwise there's not really much of a game.

Within that context, mercy board terms are either intentionally belittling/humiliating, or simply OOC. Unless GOONS are claiming that they RP adolescents who are into internet humor.

You can't have it both ways, even though you try to run to one defense when confronted from the opposite end. Either you're a joke alliance that operates entirely OOC, or you're an IC evil alliance. The only valid position you can't take is that of a legit, serious alliance that isn't also malicious.

GOONS

Oh no. I have to draw a picture to save my nation. WAIT

CYBERNATIONS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Oh no. I have to draw a picture to save my nation. WAIT

CYBERNATIONS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Thanks for demonstrating my point for me. Couldn't have asked for a better reply.

Thanks for demonstrating my point for me. Couldn't have asked for a better reply.

Quite.

Obviously, IC we're evil evil (I'm not an !@#$%^&, I just roleplay one on CN).

OOC We're people who would us people's IPs against them (I've yet to see this happen, but obviously it's completely common).

I don't even know anymore :|

No, I can't think of a single time myself, you'd have to be a pretty giant baby to worry about something like that.

It's the complaint I hear about it. Pretty much mirrors the exact same complaint that Voxers had with the Continuum peace forums.

It's the complaint I hear about it. Pretty much mirrors the exact same complaint that Voxers had with the Continuum peace forums.

The difference is the Continuum had a habit of chasing people across rerolls so the IPs had some meaning and as sardonic said, they could offer alternative means so that sort of information isn't revealed if people who otherwise would do the terms wanted it.

The difference is the Continuum had a habit of chasing people across rerolls so the IPs had some meaning and as sardonic said, they could offer alternative means so that sort of information isn't revealed if people who otherwise would do the terms wanted it.

Let's put it another way. You guys are GOONS.

The old GOONS were among the leaders about chasing people over rerolls, and griefing. Posts like http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2886637&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=13#post345791901 do not endear the inhabitants of your website to the denizens of this game.

And then there's crap like http://goflo.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=9003a88786aae1a202be3c3461ceed33&topic=348.0 which is a reason why a lot of people felt GOONS needed to be driven from the game to be never heard from again.

But you protest you're just from SA, you're not like the old GOONS. Well OK, there are some decent people on SA; but you guys had Lam in your early days, which doesn't really fit into the whole "we're just playing the game like anyone else, we're totally not griefing the whole game with the objective of being the last alliance standing before we leave and the game shuts down" theory.

Let's put it another way. You guys are GOONS.

Not only is Roq not GOONS, he's the president of Umbrella, lol.

We're here to play the game, deal with it. We have no intention of destroying it.

As far as I know, no other alliance had ever required their enemies register on their forums and hand over IP information to secure peace before Continuum did it. You guys do the same thing to every EoG.

Seriously? The argument has devolved to this? Show us one case of GOONS EZIing someone based on IP information, or even one post (before yours just there) of someone being seriously worried about it. The big, huge difference is that at the time of Vox, many of the Continuum alliances did practice EZI and would use the IP information to find people. (Remember Kingzog being told he could never play CN again?)

Now there are valid objections to the mercy board – personally I see it as exchanging humiliating yourself for peace, and I don't really like it. But for EoGs at least, that's one more avenue than most alliances provide to obtain peace. Tech raiding is a bad thing with no moral basis either way, and should at worst be 'PM for peace', but GOONS are far from alone in not allowing that these days either. But at least there is always a 'normal' route to peace if you don't want to put yourself through the mercy board.

The EoG list does seem to be functionally equivalent to the PZI lists of most alliances, though. I think Sardonic somewhat misunderstands what most PZI lists actually mean. (Pursuing a nation after a reroll is EZI, and most alliances don't actually require a nation that gets onto their PZI list to reach ZI before being able to obtain peace through reps or some other diplomatic agreement, though reps for rogues are usually so high that they do just let themselves go to ZI.)

The EoG list does seem to be functionally equivalent to the PZI lists of most alliances, though. I think Sardonic somewhat misunderstands what most PZI lists actually mean.

I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that the EoG list is a PZI list. If a clear and reasonable path to peace exists, it cannot be considered PZI.

Yes yes, we all know about the tears blog. May I have an answer to my question though? Do other Alliances that allow tech raiding give the offended nation a way to attain permanent peace from said Tech Raiding nation?

I want to know the answer to this as well. I think it's a fair question in general.

However, there are a number of alliances that simply do not allow wars for tech or "tech raiding" in ANY situation. Mine included. I'm NOT suggesting that GOONS (or anyone else) must follow this example. I am, however, saying that people on the other side of this argument should not assume that criticisms of GOONS policies are ALWAYS coming from members of alliances that also tech raid.

No, I can't think of a single time myself, you'd have to be a pretty giant baby to worry about something like that.

Or one bad experience with it in the past, or being close to someone who has had it used against them in the past. It may not be a huge concern for most people but, for whatever it's worth (or not), I think the concern about IP addresses is a valid point and not one I had considered before. If nothing else, something for nations to consider when looking at their options in terms of what direction to take in obtaining peace.

I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that the EoG list is a PZI list. If a clear and reasonable path to peace exists, it cannot be considered PZI.

Heh, most alliances' PZI lists aren't actually PZI lists to you then. I don't know anyone who ZI-lists people and doesn't offer them a route to peace. Even most of the people on the old EZI had a path to peace, as I recall (and in fact most of them eventually got off the list).

I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that the EoG list is a PZI list. If a clear and reasonable path to peace exists, it cannot be considered PZI.

Then Lord Swampy wasn't on NPO-Valhalla permazi then?

OOC We're people who would us people's IPs against them (I've yet to see this happen, but obviously it's completely common).

I know of at least one person who's IP and email was used from his use of the Mercy Board and him harrassed outside of the game.

MM is completely on point in noting that CN is not Pictionary, Scattergories, or some other silly party game. It's a nation simulator. For a lot of people, the whole point is to take it seriously. Otherwise there's not really much of a game.

Within that context, mercy board terms are either intentionally belittling/humiliating, or simply OOC. Unless GOONS are claiming that they RP adolescents who are into internet humor.

You can't have it both ways, even though you try to run to one defense when confronted from the opposite end. Either you're a joke alliance that operates entirely OOC, or you're an IC evil alliance. The only valid position you can't take is that of a legit, serious alliance that isn't also malicious.

You're forcing a dichotomy where there is none. Why can't we RP a group of nations who value art and entertainment with the same weight as currency? How does flipping from OOC to IC suddenly make the terms malicious? We've even tossed around the idea of setting up a Cultural Preservation Act, where nations can voluntarily submit works of Mercy Board quality in return for protection.

Let's put it another way. You guys are GOONS.

The old GOONS were among the leaders about chasing people over rerolls, and griefing. Posts like http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2886637&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=13#post345791901 do not endear the inhabitants of your website to the denizens of this game.

And then there's crap like http://goflo.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=9003a88786aae1a202be3c3461ceed33&topic=348.0 which is a reason why a lot of people felt GOONS needed to be driven from the game to be never heard from again.

But you protest you're just from SA, you're not like the old GOONS. Well OK, there are some decent people on SA; but you guys had Lam in your early days, which doesn't really fit into the whole "we're just playing the game like anyone else, we're totally not griefing the whole game with the objective of being the last alliance standing before we leave and the game shuts down" theory.

How exactly does Lam fall into all that?

Plus, instead of posting stuff that Old GOONS did, how about posting stuff that we've done that even comes close to those things?

You're forcing a dichotomy where there is none. Why can't we RP a group of nations who value art and entertainment with the same weight as currency? How does flipping from OOC to IC suddenly make the terms malicious? We've even tossed around the idea of setting up a Cultural Preservation Act, where nations can voluntarily submit works of Mercy Board quality in return for protection.

Your art and entertainment involves making nation rulers perform tasks which, to the leaders of most nations, would be ridiculous and demeaning. Not to mention completely juvenile. If you're going to RP adolescents who somehow took over nations just for the lulz, that's fine. But don't expect anyone to treat you like a legit alliance that deserves any respect.

From an OOC perspective, some of those essays are hilarious. It is just a game after all. But some of us try to keep some degree of boundary between the CN world of war and international diplomacy etc., and the world of internet lulz. I have no idea why you would want to come to a game like this just to be ridiculous, except to basically grief people. I don't know what else to call if you're coming to a game like this just to try to make a joke out of it.

I know of at least one person who's IP and email was used from his use of the Mercy Board and him harrassed outside of the game.

And that would be?

Your art and entertainment involves making nation rulers perform tasks which, to the leaders of most nations, would be ridiculous and demeaning. Not to mention completely juvenile. If you're going to RP adolescents who somehow took over nations just for the lulz, that's fine. But don't expect anyone to treat you like a legit alliance that deserves any respect.

We don't care whether or not people feel the terms are ridiculous or demeaning. At all. They can't be intentionally so if we put literally zero thought towards it. Does that make us bad or evil? That's your call! However, not being funny to everyone doesn't make something OOC.

From an OOC perspective, some of those essays are hilarious. It is just a game after all. But some of us try to keep some degree of boundary between the CN world of war and international diplomacy etc., and the world of internet lulz.

From an IC perspective the essays are hilarious as well. My nation ruler has a sense of humor. Terms have literally nothing to do with internet "lulz", and Goons despise that word.

I have no idea why you would want to come to a game like this just to be ridiculous, except to basically grief people. I don't know what else to call if you're coming to a game like this just to try to make a joke out of it.

Can't we have our cake and eat it too? We aren't here just to grief people. We aren't here just to make a joke out of CN. I have no idea why you think the Mercy Board is the epicenter of GOONS. It's a thing that we do because it's fun, but it's not our driving purpose by any stretch.

How exactly does Lam fall into all that?

Lam was in CE GOONS, and I was allied to him there. He's a griefer.

Lam was in CE GOONS, and I was allied to him there. He's a griefer.

So by default, GOONS are greifers due to him being there. I GET IT!

So by default, GOONS are greifers due to him being there. I GET IT!

Well, he's the only guy in your gov I recognized when you started out. And let's be honest, he was pretty high up.

Stuff like pubbie tears blog entries go a lot towards establishing your griefer cred as well.

Also, no one answered my question. How many other alliances offer their raided targets a way to permanent peace?