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The myth of the opposition


Haflinger

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The current opposition is too incompetent, unorganized, and impatient to actually form any sort of counter.

The current opposition is too small.

C&G was able to unseat the NPO not because of any great foreign policy ability, but because the Superfriends and the Citadel decided to change sides, combined with a large number of boredom deletions among the ruling alliances in the old older.

Now let's look at the list of the top 40 alliances and where they sit in foreign policy terms. I'm counting treaties to the three ruling blocs plus Fark and Sparta, as those two alliances tie together a lot of the web. As well, I've noted ties to IRON, as they are the alliance that refused to attack their ally's ally in Superfriends in the last major war, cementing a victory for the other side. Former MK allies from before their treaty reset are also noted.

1. MHA - MDP with one SF member, one Pandora's Box member, plus Fark and Sparta.

2. NPO - Ostracized. Would have an MDP with a Superfriends member, but treaty was forbidden.

3. GPA - Neutral.

4. NpO - MDP with one SF member. Former MK ally.

5. Sparta - MDP with three SF members, two C&G members, and one Pandora's Box member.

6. Fark - MDP with six SF members, two Pandora's Box members.

7. WTF - Neutral.

8. MK - Reset its treatyweb. Formerly a C&G member, MDPed to two Superfriends and three Pandora's Box members.

9. VE - Pandora's Box member. MADP to one Superfriend, MDP with two other Superfriends.

10. Legion - No ties to ruling coalition.

11. ODN - C&G member. MDP to Sparta.

12. TDO - Neutral.

13. TOP - No direct ties. MDP to IRON.

14. FOK - Pandora's Box member. MADP to one other Pandora's Box member, and two Superfriends. Former MK ally.

15. GATO - MDP to two C&G members, one Pandora's Box member.

16. IRON - MDP to one Superfriends member.

17. Umbrella - Pandora's Box member. MDP to Sparta. Former MK ally.

18. RIA - Superfriends member. MDP to Sparta, one Pandora's Box member.

19. MCXA - No direct ties.

20. TOOL - No direct ties. MDP to IRON.

21. FAN - No official treaties. Generally connected diplomatically to various alliances on the ruling coalition's side.

22. R&R - Superfriends member. MDP to two Pandora's Box members, plus the somewhat famous IRON tie.

23. Ragnarok - Superfriends member. MDP to one Pandora's Box member, plus Fark and Sparta.

24. Nordreich - MDP to one Superfriends member.

25. UPN - No direct ties. MDP to the NpO.

26. TFD - No direct ties. MDP to Nueva Vida.

27. Nueva Vida - MDP to one Pandora's Box member. Former MK ally.

28. Athens - C&G member. MDP to one Pandora's Box member, one Superfriends member, and Sparta.

29. World Federation - MDP to one Pandora's Box member.

30. GOONS - Pandora's Box member. MDP to one Superfriend and one C&G member. Former MK ally.

31. NEW - MDP to one Pandora's Box member.

32. CSN - Superfriends member. MDP to one C&G member, plus Fark.

33. NATO - No direct ties.

34. STA - Former MK ally. Other than that, no direct ties. MDP to Nueva Vida.

35. GLOF - MADP to Nueva Vida.

36. Poison Clan - Pandora's Box member. MDP to two C&G members.

37. GOD - Superfriends member. MADP to one Pandora's Box member, MDP to one other Pandora's Box member and Sparta.

38. LoSS - No direct ties. MDP to GATO.

39. iFOK - Pandora's Box member. MADP to one other Pandora's Box member, MDP to Fark.

40. Valhalla - No direct ties. MDP to TORN, IRON, Kronos, Nordreich. Historical diplomatic relationship with Superfriends.

And that's all of them.

So who is this opposition you're speaking of? NPO? Legion? MCXA? NATO?

Heck if those four came out tomorrow and announced an MADP pact between themselves, the Mushroom Kingdom and the three large neutral alliances, it still wouldn't be close to enough support to topple the huge treatyweb that's in place to support the ruling coalition. Or even really to survive the inevitable rolling.

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You're missing the point though Haf. I agree it would be really hard to form an opposition, but it looked fairly similar to this before Karma started. The way to fight things like this is to find people who secretly dislike each other and slowly move them to opposite sides. It's pretty much no secret that Polar don't like most of the members in this new bloc. It's no secret that there were some ex-MK allies that weren't very happy about being canceled on. Instead of slowly approaching those folks and working toward a common goal all you guys are doing is whining about how hard it would be to form an opposition. Even when MK had treaties and it was only just Super-Grievances (basically just two groups with a lot of common allies). No one wanted to really try to do anything. They just said "I'll kiss up to SF and hope they fight CnG" or "I'll kiss up to CnG and hope they fight SF". You won't get anything to eat if you don't open your mouth.

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You're missing the point though Haf. I agree it would be really hard to form an opposition, but it looked fairly similar to this before Karma started. The way to fight things like this is to find people who secretly dislike each other and slowly move them to opposite sides. It's pretty much no secret that Polar don't like most of the members in this new bloc. It's no secret that there were some ex-MK allies that weren't very happy about being canceled on. Instead of slowly approaching those folks and working toward a common goal all you guys are doing is whining about how hard it would be to form an opposition. Even when MK had treaties and it was only just Super-Grievances (basically just two groups with a lot of common allies). No one wanted to really try to do anything. They just said "I'll kiss up to SF and hope they fight CnG" or "I'll kiss up to CnG and hope they fight SF". You won't get anything to eat if you don't open your mouth.

All of this is working on the assumption that everyone not tied to Superpandoragrievances is (or should be) trying to form an opposition to that group; when in reality, there's really not great need or desire to do so. Sure, we may not be on the "inside", but that doesn't mean that we have any great hostility to those who are.

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C&G was able to unseat the NPO not because of any great foreign policy ability, but because the Superfriends and the Citadel decided to change sides

NPO attacked a MADP ally of a SuperFriend. No sides were changed, only what NPO thought the sides were turned out to not be based on reality. NPO was unseated because its allies, and to a somewhat lesser extent itself, had become bloated with limited military coordination or tactical skill, because it never needed military skill or coordination to get where it was. The concept of nuclear arms and deterrents, and warchests, seemed to be foreign concepts to many in that coalition. It was ripe to fall when politically saavy and militarily skilled alliances found a common ground with which to attack them. That is why NPO fell.

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All such political superstructures fall due to its parts going against other parts, hence bringing the overall construction to its demise. That must be self evident to any rational person.

That is the only possible way in which any superstructure in the sense here debated, can end. Everything else is rubbish.

So its always in the interest of such parts to keep it together. One of the method always is the "foreign threat" mythology. Its empty folklore in the end, nothing to specially highlight. Its just part of the scenery, such stories will always exist no mater who, when, how will be the "ruling party" here.

So as always so in this case, the superstructure will end once parties making it up decide its time for scenery change. The end to the current is hidden among two or three alliances currently listed as parts of it. Not in the NPO, or whoever else.

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Clearly, Pandora's Box was created in order to defend against the threat of the mighty Legion-MCXA-NATO coalition.

I like to go with that it was created to $%&@ up the treaty web even more and create perpetual peace and boredom, but that works too. :D

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All of this is working on the assumption that everyone not tied to Superpandoragrievances is (or should be) trying to form an opposition to that group; when in reality, there's really not great need or desire to do so. Sure, we may not be on the "inside", but that doesn't mean that we have any great hostility to those who are.

That's the problem no one is. All the other side is doing is whining about how they can't. If you don't want to form something then don't whine about how you can't. In reality I think all of you guys realize you will all be rolled again eventually. If you enjoy getting rolled go ahead and continue business as usual. Otherwise why not try to change things? You guys really don't have much to lose.

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NPO attacked a MADP ally of a SuperFriend. No sides were changed, only what NPO thought the sides were turned out to not be based on reality. NPO was unseated because its allies, and to a somewhat lesser extent itself, had become bloated with limited military coordination or tactical skill, because it never needed military skill or coordination to get where it was. The concept of nuclear arms and deterrents, and warchests, seemed to be foreign concepts to many in that coalition. It was ripe to fall when politically saavy and militarily skilled alliances found a common ground with which to attack them. That is why NPO fell.

Actually you're wrong. Superfriends was tied into the hegemony prior to Karma.

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That's the problem no one is. All the other side is doing is whining about how they can't. If you don't want to form something then don't whine about how you can't. In reality I think all of you guys realize you will all be rolled again eventually. If you enjoy getting rolled go ahead and continue business as usual. Otherwise why not try to change things? You guys really don't have much to lose.

I really don't think that "we" are whining as much as you think we are - I'm certainly not - just as "all of you" aren't fixated with rounding up any ex-Heg still breathing and putting a bullet in their brain. Either argument is a gross oversimplification, and we both know that it's not as if any side is ruled over by a hivemind whose sole purpose in life is to completely destroy the other.

In essence, we're both putting words in each others' mouths. Someone will spout off and say "All you Karma alliances are killing the game with your treaty web", to which someone will inevitably respond "Then why don't all you ex-Heg stop !@#$%ing out and do something about it", followed by "Actually, 'all us ex-Heg' aren't all that concerned about this treaty web", and finally "Ex-Heg must be whiners, since all they do is complain about the treaty web instead of mounting an opposition to it."

As always, there are people on both sides who are speaking as if they represent an entire faction, in an attempt to promote their latest crusade. Sure, some will be followers, but others will have no interest in what their self-appointed "spokesman" is saying. For example, when I say that I'm not all that interested in organizing an opposition to Pandora, it's because I really don't feel that it's something to be combated or that it's some great satanic evil upon the Cyberverse; not that I'm secretly hoping for it's downfall but am just too lazy to lift a finger to see that happen. And, truth be told, I honestly feel that the majority of us 'whiners' in ex-Heg feel the same way.

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That's the problem no one is. All the other side is doing is whining about how they can't. If you don't want to form something then don't whine about how you can't. In reality I think all of you guys realize you will all be rolled again eventually. If you enjoy getting rolled go ahead and continue business as usual. Otherwise why not try to change things? You guys really don't have much to lose.

Look at NPO or any of its allies. Which do you seriously see as being able to begin to draw enough alliances towards them to even out the treaty web? If they did succeed, do you think they would side with NPO or the ally that drew them over in a war or possibly even making them choose nuetrality? The only way for things to change is for the NPO side to gain members and ns to take on the opposite side head on or wait for a very long time for leaders to change and alliances politics to move from the current state.

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The fact of the matter is that the ex-hegemony has already gotten beat down twice. They could possibly muster enough strength to have a sorta-almost even war with bleu, but even then they would lose. Who wants to organize just to lose a third major war in a row? Me, sure, but few people are like me. I don't blame them. Add it to the insane reps they know they would get, and really, why not just wait?

Those in the current power structure who !@#$%* and moan at their allies for even considering allying with ex-heg are an issue. That is a big part of what is stopping the ex-heg from getting even close to enough power to make an almost even war.

If I had any say, I would disband all ex-heg alliance and distribute the members evenly amongst the current power structures, but again, that's just me, an old alliance-disbander!

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That's the problem no one is. All the other side is doing is whining about how they can't. If you don't want to form something then don't whine about how you can't. In reality I think all of you guys realize you will all be rolled again eventually. If you enjoy getting rolled go ahead and continue business as usual. Otherwise why not try to change things? You guys really don't have much to lose.

As per usual, you are just wasting bandwidth with your posts. Intentional or not? At this point Ill say not and figure you just don't know better, despite many would figure to give you some credit. I have no such fate in your capabilities. Its tragicomic you ever was a head of any alliance. Just shows to prove how silly in game democracies are for the overwhelming portion.

gg

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The "treaty web" is hardly as monolithic or as strong as people keep saying it is, it's actually an incredibly fragile and complicated mass of individual relationships.

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Look at NPO or any of its allies. Which do you seriously see as being able to begin to draw enough alliances towards them to even out the treaty web? If they did succeed, do you think they would side with NPO or the ally that drew them over in a war or possibly even making them choose nuetrality? The only way for things to change is for the NPO side to gain members and ns to take on the opposite side head on or wait for a very long time for leaders to change and alliances politics to move from the current state.

Well it doesn't have to be NPO or any ex-Heg. I think we all saw people who were angry at recent events in a channel recently. Not that those folks have enough political capital to really build anything up yet, but someone really needs to do something.

As per usual, you are just wasting bandwidth with your posts. Intentional or not? At this point Ill say not and figure you just don't know better, despite many would figure to give you some credit. I have no such fate in your capabilities. Its tragicomic you ever was a head of any alliance. Just shows to prove how silly in game democracies are for the overwhelming portion.

gg

umm did you even read my post? :unsure:

I'm not sure why you're being so hostile to what I said.

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The way to fight things like this is to find people who secretly dislike each other and slowly move them to opposite sides.

Yes, and rely on these people.

Oh wait.

It's pretty much no secret that Polar don't like most of the members in this new bloc.

You assume that anyone wants to work with Polar. Most of our alliances got wrecked because of them.

If Polar wants our help to take down Pandora's Box, they have a lot of convincing to do first.

Or, put another way - your advice amounts to saying to NPO right after Great War I "You should work on repairing your relations with Legion."

It's no secret that there were some ex-MK allies that weren't very happy about being canceled on.

Sure, and that's great for them. They're still going to support Pandora's Box.

MK wasn't the real problem. They're just an enabler.

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Yes, and rely on these people.

Oh wait.

You assume that anyone wants to work with Polar. Most of our alliances got wrecked because of them.

If Polar wants our help to take down Pandora's Box, they have a lot of convincing to do first.

Or, put another way - your advice amounts to saying to NPO right after Great War I "You should work on repairing your relations with Legion."

Sure, and that's great for them. They're still going to support Pandora's Box.

MK wasn't the real problem. They're just an enabler.

Well I understand you don't want to work with these people, but I'm just pointing out that you guys may have a common goal. If there was really a want to form an opposition you wouldn't really have to trust these people just use them to achieve your goal.

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Well I understand you don't want to work with these people, but I'm just pointing out that you guys may have a common goal. If there was really a want to form an opposition you wouldn't really have to trust these people just use them to achieve your goal.

The problem boils down to your perception of my goals.

You think I want to unseat the position that alliances like MHA, MK and Fark have as deciding factors on Planet Bob.

Nope. I don't always like these alliances but they don't cause problems for me. It's the alliances that they lend their power to that do.

Much like once upon a time, NPO enabled noWedge's Valhalla to cause havoc on Purple. Valhalla was the problem. Well really noWedge was the problem, but that's splitting hairs - back then for all intents and purposes he was Valhalla.

It's the Valhallas of the new order that I want to get rid of. And the real problem is, you think I want to work with them in order to unseat MK, Fark and MHA.

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C&G was able to unseat the NPO not because of any great foreign policy ability, but because the Superfriends and the Citadel decided to change sides

...

I'm counting treaties to the three ruling blocs plus Fark and Sparta, as those two alliances tie together a lot of the web.

You could have made exactly this post a month before Karma, enumerated all alliances to Continuum, One Vision, Citadel and Superfriends and claimed that nothing could possibly happen. While the first quoted sentence has some of your usual ex-Hegemony bias in it (we didn't 'switch sides', we defended our friends and allies who were attacked or chained into the defensive side), it does show a glimmer of comprehension which you seemed to ditch in the rest of the post: a multibloc hegemony is not a monolithic structure that you should look at and go 'oh dear it's too big'.

The reason that Order Hegemony lasted so long was that NPO was by far the biggest alliance in it, ran it and had pet 'attack dog' alliances (GGA, Valhalla, TPF) that didn't care about the rest of the allies, so could be used to threaten people into not leaving. That, and the paranoia of fringe alliances that anyone leaving would get them all rolled; Sponge's spies exposed some of the Grämlins-leaving-Continuum thread so you all got to see some of the outright panic that we were going to destroy the whole structure.

The current 'hegemony' (SF/C&G/PB) doesn't have a 'main' alliance in the same way, and it isn't held together by fear of attack from within. That means that it won't implode spectacularly at the end, but it also means that if you make it in the interests of (say) SF to be friendly to you more than it is to PB, they won't feel threatened into not leaving the 'hegemony'.

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You could have made exactly this post a month before Karma, enumerated all alliances to Continuum, One Vision, Citadel and Superfriends and claimed that nothing could possibly happen.

No, I couldn't have.

There were a lot more than four alliances in the top 40 then without ties to Continuum and One Vision.

Only an idiot would have claimed Superfriends were in bed with the mainstream Continuum alliances a month before Karma. And everyone knew that Citadel wasn't staying in Continuum either.

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