Shadow's Vault

You yourself were part of a sanction war. Sure you didn’t sanction first but you took the sanction seat from NPO as a political move during a war therefore politicising the position and the tools of that position. Using the seat as a weapon of war regardless if its the use of sanctions or intentionally targeting an alliances seat during war time are basically the same thing.

I agree completely that sanctions should lack any hint of political influence. However, I highly doubt that anything of the sort will ever be achieved.

Exhibit A: MCXA. I did not realize first of all that their Senator had to get a sanction approved by the Govt of the alliance. That right there begins to bring politics into it. A Senator acts on behalf of his team, not his alliance. The fact that he wears his alliance's name while up there is merely a bonus and allows that alliance the convenience of having their own Senator up top to perform duties for them. Second of all, I did not realize that they based their sanctions on who is asking (aka political influence). I'm actually rather shocked to see the logs you posted, as I thought better of them before. So I guess if somebody who I regarded fairly well such as MCXA can introduce political influence to their privilege, I suppose pretty much anybody else can too.

Exhibit B: GOONS. I don't have a paragraph to write about them because I'm pretty sure we all would expect this behavior from them by now. They're basically the dictionary example of an exception to idealism and honor.

You yourself were part of a sanction war. Sure you didn’t sanction first but you took the sanction seat from NPO as a political move during a war therefore politicising the position and the tools of that position. Using the seat as a weapon of war regardless if its the use of sanctions or intentionally targeting an alliances seat during war time are basically the same thing.

Vox Populi was "part" of a sanction war the way that alliances were "part" of their own beatdowns in the Pre-Vox and Vox eras. But I'm glad you brought it up as an example of how wrong politicization of sanctions it. The Continuum sanctioned Kingzog (now known as Ashoka the Great) on every sphere that they controlled in much the same way that GOONS is using allies to rubber stamp sanctions against Methrage on every sphere they have an ally on. The Continuum dragged Vox Populi into a sanction war: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=31273 TOP gov even used the thread to laugh about the sanctions and request one on Orange. Oh, yes, we were "part" of a sanction war, alright.

Because we became victims of political sanctions that would not be lifted, a feedback loop was created. While we began all over the color map, we were forced to congregate on one sphere, Red, and position ourselves to remove our own sanctions. Once we gained a Senate seat, we used it to do just that, and nothing more, remove Kingzog's sanction on Red. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=31704 Kingzog left it at that, and knowing the nature of our enemies, he turned the other cheek to be struck, but urged them to think very carefully and not do it. NPO refused our overtures to peace, and Kingvox was re-sanctioned, affirming Continuum's desire for a sanction war, and, yes, because of this attitude of our enemies Kingzog went on to use sanctions as a weapon of war.

And in the final dismantling of the absurd notion that I personally was giggling all the way to the bank in a Senate war here is my personal statement from August 17 2008, after Continuum had started a sanction war with us:

Vox Populi's Senate Sanction Sentiment:

In time of peace Senators are a stabilizing force on color spheres. They write team messages that no one reads, they sanction nations that are nuclear rogues, and sometimes host IRC channels that no one frequents. Thank you for reading through the idealist view of what a senator is; in fact, senators sanction whoever they feel like during peace time, they make up their own definitions for the very clear word "rogue," and generally do whatever their government tells them to do.

In times of war, senators issue team messages that no one reads, they sanction nations for launching nukes without regard to whether or not those strikes were government sanctioned, and they sanction nations in opposing alliances that may be able to make a senate run themselves.

Oh me-oh-my, there's me decrying the very same things 2 years ago that I am decrying today. It's remarkable how consist my values are whether I'm on the receiving end of a senate war, or the one making the decision as to whether or not to get involved in one. I went on to quote Kingzog's statement that he did not want a sanction war, then continued:

So, after being sanctioned on 8 color spheres despite being in peace mode, kingzog sanctioned NPO senators. NPO started a sanction war, PZIed us, now they can live with it.

In regards to the Green sphere, should Cylon be elected, we will ask him to remove sanctions on Vox Populi nations, and from that point on to use discretion when considering issuing sanctions. Despite what DerekJones had to say on the matter, GGA's senator is in no danger, unless of course GGA also wants to start its own sanction war with us. That we had to initiate our votign campaign for Cylon in a clandestine matter should be no surprise, GGA is brutal in its control of the Green senate despite being a key player in the gutting of Green.

Preaching peace on two spheres? Unthinkable. We went on to get that Green seat, though I'll be honest with you I don't remember if GGA and VE started a sanction war with us or not.

I'm kind of glad you brought all that up, I had sort of forgotten about it and it's nice to see I haven't let being part of a Senate-sharing structure or in charge of an alliance go to my head to the point of doing things I said are nasty.

So, now we have me speaking out against politicization of Senates in Aug 2008, July 2010, and September 2010. And forever.

SCY was scolded for his actions in this instance. He now knows that our feelings about those requesting a sanction are irrelevant, if the sanction is justified (as Schattenmann's was), we are obligated to accept the request.

Blue sanction requests made to Dr. Fresh (Raunchero) do not go through the MCXA Government first.

SCY was scolded for his actions in this instance. He now knows that our feelings about those requesting a sanction are irrelevant, if the sanction is justified (as Schattenmann's was), we are obligated to accept the request.

Blue sanction requests made to Dr. Fresh (Raunchero) do not go through the MCXA Government first.

That is appreciated, but there is no motive in regard to MCXA in the use of the log, rather it is to demonstrate my feelings on the politicization of sanctions.

Why don't you write a blog on something interesting, like your role in the bubblegum war.

Also keep on trying to convince people Methrage isn't a rogue all you want, only fools will believe it. You are a hypocrite, plain and simple.

So, now we have me speaking out against politicization of Senates in Aug 2008, July 2010, and September 2010. And forever.

Twice in 25 months, I can see its close to your heart. I guess that’s why you waited two months to bring it up. It’s nothing to do with your intense and increasing hatred of GOONS.

Why don't you write a blog on something interesting, like your role in the bubblegum war.

Also keep on trying to convince people Methrage isn't a rogue all you want, only fools will believe it. You are a hypocrite, plain and simple.

Things are going well when you have to pull the Bubblegum Gambit.

Things are going well when you have to pull the Bubblegum Gambit.

I think they ran out of propaganda to use against Schattenmann. So they start to dig up old conflicts and etc or as nicely shown time and time again just flood a thread with reply's, making it impossible to follow or impossible to find related content (try to find a thread that says "bad" things about GOONS under 10 or even 20 pages).

Who cares if you deny sanction to someone because you don't like them? I don't.

SCY was scolded? He did the right thing. I wouldn't go out of my way to help someone if they were bashing my alliance.

Until it gets to the point that sanctions are being used on a large scale as a weapon of war, I really couldn't care less how they're used. For the record, GOONS v. Methrage isn't a war, it's pest control.

Why don't you write a blog on something interesting, like your role in the bubblegum war.

Also keep on trying to convince people Methrage isn't a rogue all you want, only fools will believe it. You are a hypocrite, plain and simple.

Here ya go, little buddy: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=21380

I expect a bucket of goon tears in return for this.

Newsflash: Everyone on the planet that cares about the Bubblegum War already knows about it, and everyone that doesn't already know about it hasn't got any reason to care. Most of the alliances that were effected by the Bubblegum War ceased to exist inside of 6 months of its occurrence, the rest took longer but they're all gone, too. Browncoats--the alliance with the biggest stake--immediately treatied Cult of Justitia upon its reformation. So, while GOONS thinks that an event from May 2008 is still something that bothers me and bothers other people, we've all moved on.

I mean if we want to drag skeletons out of closets, let's make sure they're really skeletons. Bubblegum War isn't one. Here's a skeleton: I'm going to type the name of GOONS's second-in-command up until a few weeks ago, and let's see what happens between when I type it and after this comment is posted. Ready? Here we go: Any knowledge you have of ban evaders must be reported.

That's a skeleton. For those of you who didn't catch on, I'll be more direct: I can't say the name of GOONS's second-in-command, no one can. http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/index.php?showtopic=80642&hl= http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=17237

Twice in 25 months, I can see its close to your heart. I guess that’s why you waited two months to bring it up. It’s nothing to do with your intense and increasing hatred of GOONS.

Alterego, old friend. I know you avowed to be my blood-enemy until the end of time because I referred to the BAPS-Valhalla/TPF War as "BAPSmear" on the OWF two years ago. I explained to you that that's what our side called it, and that the entire time the war was going on I was spying on TPF for GOONS which was forwarding the info to BAPS. But I get it; it was a trying time for BAPS and I understand the way me using a dated name for the war would effect you--You're within your rights to keep opposing everything I do or say. But you've gotta understand that you have to do it smart.

I didn't bring up politicization of sanctions. I know you're all up my poopchute f5'ing every thread I post in so you can try and get a GOTCHA! in, so I know that you know that GOONS brought up politicization of sanctions. Here, I know it's hard to see through the seething red in your eyes, so I pulled it up for you:

What I gather from this is red is the sphere for rogues. Such a lack of character from the red senators.

Why would I leave them out of it? They happily ignore requests to sanction rogues. This implies their support of rogues.

After these two posts I explained that we don't consider Methrage a rogue and that's why we're not sanctioning him, then things got really cute.

The only thing muddled about the case is that he's attacking someone you don't like. We already know that red is apt to deny sanctions if rogues are hitting people they don't like, or else try to force their influence over an alliance as a trade-off ("if you want a sanction, stop raiding anyone on my entire sphere"). I'm waiting for your excuse to not sanction. I bet it's just as good as "a 2-man AA is an alliance so they can't be sanctioned no matter what they do -- assuming they're attacking GOONS."

So, Alterego, I know that logic evades the rage-filled, but here's the logical advancement of things:

GOONS accused CoJ and NPO and Red Dawn of denying sanctions based on politics--politicization of sanctions. We went out and back over it for a while. I do not politicize sanctions because I have been pushed around by political sanctions off and on since 2008. I like to back up arguments with evidence, so I pulled out the most recent example of myself being opposed to politicization of sanctions, this log.

You're too mad to think straight though, so you don't understand this progression. You think that I just now brought these logs up out of the blue ("waited two months to bring it up" in your words) as a complaint against MCXA. That's not the case, honey. The situation was resolved when it happened, so I didn't need to bring it up when it happened. Bringing it up now isn't a complaint about MCXA, it's an example of my feelings on politicized senates. Here's a Valium, here's some water, breathe deep, now you get it. Everyone else gets it, but now you get it, too.

I am not politicizing the GOONS's sanction requests. I am not doing that because I abhor politicization of Senates. I abhor politicization of Senates because of my encounter with politicized senates:

In April 2008, Sharduke (NpO's CIS Puppet Senator on Black) sanctioned the remaining GOONS Senator and I whipped up half the team over it (ask ChairmanHal, he had to clean up the mess, or anyone that was around back then)

In May or June of 2008, I was exiled from Black with a sanction for "political rogue"

Later that same month, Dr Fresh, a Blue Senator, told me to get off of the "BLEU" sphere or he would sanction me

In August 2008, my alliance-mate kingzog was the focal point of a senate war that we tried to avoid

In July of this year, as shown above, I had to contend with a politicized sanction request

But here we are, people that are upset about a logical decision the reasoning of which has been fully explained say that I politicize sanctions.

It's important that people understand that such an assertion is asinine and contrary to my entire history. A demonstrable and indeed demonstrated 2-year consistent history.

Since the Black Conclave link above is inaccessible to almost every person in existence anymore, here is the text of yet another argument of mine against politicization of Senates.

Tonight we ask "who's in charge here?"

I have just finished looking through the Team Information Panel for the place I have come to call home, and to love - Black - and find myself reeling.

A check of the team sanctions shows that in the past 5 days a Black Team Senator - a ruler elected by nations of the Black trading sphere to represent the interests of the Black sphere only - has abused his powers not less than twice to further the interests of non-Black alliances against Black nations as part of inter-alliance military operations. On it's face these sanctions, breaches of duty and Black unity, are appalling, but add to their value that one of these sanctions was against a former Senator, herself having been the longest-serving Black senator in recent memory.

The Sanctions

On February 19, Sharduke, rogue puppet senator, sanctioned the nation of Warriors, ruled by WarriorConcept, and Republic of Axiom, ruled by banned member Ragana. Not content with his senate grab in the wake of banned member's drop from senate range, Sharduke made these sanctions against two peaceful nations, which have not engaged in military operations for 3 to 4 months and are indeed incapable of such as they exist in a state of perpetual peace mode.

The Breach

It is the duty, as briefed previously, of team Senators to serve their constituency (the nations of their color alone), and to promote team stability. In the odd case, such as that of King of Sparta, a senator may also act on behalf of the larger global community where a nuclear rogue nation team hops to continue its malicious acts. It is not the duty, and is a breach of duty in the highest, for a senator to promote the interests of outside political entities over those of his constituency, especially in matters of inter-alliance war not involving the senator's alliance nor any black nation save those in defense.

In fact, Sharduke acted in direct conflict with every aspect of a Senator's obligations to his team.

The Implications

☼ Sharduke sanctioned the head of state of a sovereign alliance, banned member Ragana, GOONS Optimus Prime Minister, a direct act of war.

☼ He sanctioned two black team nations at the request of a blue team alliance in furtherance of that alliance's war, directly involving the black team in that war.

☼ His acts have wide resonance that should alarm all black alliances: Where we should feel secure in our senators acting in our interests in an uninvolved manner, Sharduke has used his senate seat as a force against alliance leaders while his alliance is not involved in their war. Should a blue alliance attack a Dark Vows signatory or other black alliance in the future will he also sanction your leadership at the request of outside forces? I submit that he will, based on these sanctions.

☼ Since the Mafia-GOONS sanction battle some months ago Black has been looked upon as a faltering team in need of stabilization, and free for the taking to whichever alliance walks in the door. The wild senate shuffle and sanctions of this term only further this image and are but one more egg on our collective faces

The Solution

The Dark Vows are the solution but thus far have hung in limbo, a silly trifle in the footnote of black history.

The signatories of the Dark Vows must unite behind not less than two senate candidates and actually vote for them - every term. Any alliance worth its salt has spam squads and these must be mobilized toward an end of uniting black behind impartial senators who will perform their duties, not less, certainly not more. I propose Sir SocCarolina, of the Order of the Black Rose, and the former senator from TOP. The OBR is truly detached from the petty turmoils that swirl about it, and TOP's former senator performed his duties as he should have in the past.

To do this, signatory alliances must drop their squabbles over who will "control" the Black Senate, and unite as they have pledged to do when signing the vows. Senators do not, or should not, serve alliances, but teams. Senators elected by Dark Vows alliances, as such, do not control or dominate, they serve as it should be.

This call to action is caused by the actions of the Black senate against black nations. It is not about whether the sanctioned alliances are "honorable" or reviled, it is about the Black Team picking itself up off the floor and refusing to be kicked around and manipulated anymore. This is our righteous cause.

So what's more likely? That we're not sanctioning Methrage because we are not getting in the middle of an alliance war, or that I'm acting in direct opposition to everything about Senates that I have said and championed for over two years? The accusation is laughable.

I did not realize first of all that their Senator had to get a sanction approved by the Govt of the alliance. That right there begins to bring politics into it. A Senator acts on behalf of his team, not his alliance. The fact that he wears his alliance's name while up there is merely a bonus and allows that alliance the convenience of having their own Senator up top to perform duties for them.

It's interesting. Most sanctions are alliance-ordered; normally when you're a diplomat going around requesting sanctions, you're much better off hitting IRC and talking to alliance gov than you are PMing senators directly. This sometimes leads to problems, as in the case of MHA ordering a Blue sanction on RV at Sparta's behest a little while back.

Yes, a senator is a member of a team, and should respond to the team's needs; but a senator is also a member of an alliance, and dutybound to serve that alliance's interests. This usually doesn't lead to conflicts of interest, but as you point out it can.

Invicta solved this problem in as far as I know a unique way. The Senator position, when we held a senator, was considered a cabinet position. The senator's job was to decide which sanctions to grant and remove. So, all our sanctions were alliance government ordered, but at the same time were actually decided upon by our senator.

When I was a Purple senator, I removed far more sanctions than I placed incidentally. At the end of my last term as a senator, there were no sanctions at all on Purple, something I'm still proud of. This state lasted for a few months. I placed a total of one sanction during all my terms, against a nuke rogue hitting STA.

Hi everyone,

I think its relevant that I let anyone still paying attention to this thread of a few things. First, I was not aware at the time of the social norms surrounding sanctioning by senators, after my conversation with Schattenmann I talked to a few people and found out that my original thinking was wrong. I asked our Senator at the time to sanction the nation of interest, but I doubt he got to it in time because the same nation had attacked an alliance under the protection of TFD who also had a senator at the time. As far as our method of sanctioning we don't really have an system, guidelines rules, due to the fact that we've seen very few sanction requests in the past year.

I'm glad you agree that NPO shouldn't refuse sanctions due to the events of the Red Raiding Safari. As something you feel so stronly about, can I trust you will speak to them about this?

I'm glad you agree that NPO shouldn't refuse sanctions due to the events of the Red Raiding Safari. As something you feel so stronly about, can I trust you will speak to them about this?

As you know, NPO and CoJ decided on September 6th that your current sanction request for Methrage is denied because he is not a rogue (he's the leader of a micro-alliance which is at war and using nukes). Your request for Jim is also denied because he is not a rogue (he is at war with GOONS over spying). And I don't know if you've even asked, but on 9/11 we discussed UOKMB and it's clear that they are not rogues either, so don't bother (they are a micro-alliance retaliating against GOONS's raids on them).

As you know, NPO and CoJ decided on September 6th that your current sanction request for Methrage is denied because he is not a rogue (he's the leader of a micro-alliance which is at war and using nukes). Your request for Jim is also denied because he is not a rogue (he is at war with GOONS over spying). And I don't know if you've even asked, but on 9/11 we discussed UOKMB and it's clear that they are not rogues either, so don't bother (they are a micro-alliance retaliating against GOONS's raids on them).

Yes, and after September 6th Corath stated that they would not grant the sanction as long as the Red Raiding Safari continued. Why would he say that if they had already decided to deny the sanction because they don't feel Methrage is not a rogue?

Thank you. The decision was made on the 6th based on the fact that Methrage may be doing something that is inadvisible, but he is not a rogue. After the 6th, Cortath or me could have said that we weren't sanctioning Methrage because Methrage is an elephant and we're not sanctioning elephants, but that hasn't got anything to do with anything.

If you come under attack by a real nuke rogue in the future, please let us know so we can sanction him.

Thank you. The decision was made on the 6th based on the fact that Methrage may be doing something that is inadvisible, but he is not a rogue. After the 6th, Cortath or me could have said that we weren't sanctioning Methrage because Methrage is an elephant and we're not sanctioning elephants, but that hasn't got anything to do with anything.

If you come under attack by a real nuke rogue in the future, please let us know so we can sanction him.

So I guess the only answer to the question you dodged is that Corath was lying. I'm glad we got this cleared up.

It's interesting. Most sanctions are alliance-ordered; normally when you're a diplomat going around requesting sanctions, you're much better off hitting IRC and talking to alliance gov than you are PMing senators directly. This sometimes leads to problems, as in the case of MHA ordering a Blue sanction on RV at Sparta's behest a little while back.

Yes, a senator is a member of a team, and should respond to the team's needs; but a senator is also a member of an alliance, and dutybound to serve that alliance's interests. This usually doesn't lead to conflicts of interest, but as you point out it can.

Invicta solved this problem in as far as I know a unique way. The Senator position, when we held a senator, was considered a cabinet position. The senator's job was to decide which sanctions to grant and remove. So, all our sanctions were alliance government ordered, but at the same time were actually decided upon by our senator.

When I was a Purple senator, I removed far more sanctions than I placed incidentally. At the end of my last term as a senator, there were no sanctions at all on Purple, something I'm still proud of. This state lasted for a few months. I placed a total of one sanction during all my terms, against a nuke rogue hitting STA.

I see. Interesting story, something I didn't know. So, did every sanction go through Invicta Govt before that structure change?

@ SCY: Fair enough then.

I see. Interesting story, something I didn't know. So, did every sanction go through Invicta Govt before that structure change?

There was no structure change. The Senator position was always a cabinet position. Our very first senator, Synagence, was also Minister of Internal Affairs when he was first elected to Purple senate, and he got handed a second cap.

In my opinion senators should act in a way that represents the will of the individuals who voted them into power. If the majority of those individuals reside in the same alliance, than it would follow that they act in a way advantageous to the alliance. I see nothing wrong with what SYC did and furthermore he shouldn't have to apologize for his actions.

"Someone did it to me so I can do it to others wahhh"

Another well-formed Schattenman argument.

"Someone did it to me so I can do it to others wahhh"

Another well-formed Schattenman argument.

Oh lol I see what you did there, you said the opposite of what I Said. That was clever I guess VanHooIII wrote it for you.