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The Park Place (not Ground 0) Mosque not only should but MUST be built.


Mongol Federation

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The above is known as Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression; Constitution of the United States of America. To deny Muslims the right to build this mosque is, if nothing else, a gross violation of Constitutional Law. Our gov't can't establish any 1 or number of religions as official, our gov't can't establish any 1 or any or number of religions as preferred over any 1 or number of other religions and most relevant to the subject at hand, our gov't can't bar anyone from practicing their religion (no matter how much we all want to muzzle the Scientologists dry.gif).

The above alone, at least legally, should end the debate but the subject is far more complicated. America is or so we claim, to be a land of freedom, enlightenment and tolerance. America is "the city on the hill". To deny American Muslims or any American the right to worship is to forget ourselves, to abandon the ideals of the Republic and to go down a path that will lead to the end of our world honored civilization. It is a path of darkness, decay and tyranny. It is a path, that being recognized for what it was, led to the foundation of American civilization itself. To abandon this heritage is nothing less then treason.

Having noted the legal and moral flaws of the opposition, let me end with a bit of strategic thinking. We have, no matter how much we wish to forget it, caused great harm to Islamic civilization over the last century and over the past 3 decades, they've returned the favor with the vigor and zeal that would be admirable if better placed. So long as extremists on both sides reopen old wounds while throwing salt, our world shall never know peace. To allow the construction of this American mosque, in this American city on this most hollowed of American soil would be a testament not only to the ideals of our great Republic but to our commitment to peace and values of the Enlightenment. It would give us the morale and political high ground while removing the credibility 1 of the enemies greatest weapons, the propaganda that we are at war not with extremism but Islam itself. Let us defeat those who twist the word of God with honor and truth, to continue as we have is only to aid their efforts. Where is the logic in that?

Let peace and honor become our watchwords. Let us abandon the path of darkness that, blinded by fear, anger and hatred, we have mistakenly tuned down.

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You're right. Jesus said turn the other cheek, which was good advice until, you know, they crucified him.

Either way, I don't believe it MUST be built. I believe that if it is what the land owner wants, so be it. Your property is your property. As an aside, wasn't there a mosque there before 9/11?

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Wait... Park Place? Insert joke about Monopoly here.

It has been said that any publicity is good publicity. In this case, I'd wholly disagree.

By fighting against the "mosque" being built because it's near ground zero, those who follow radicalized versions of Islam have yet another reason to be upset with the western world.

Turning the other cheek in this case would have been the perfect response.

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There isn't a SHOULD or MUST be built. It's quite possible that it'll be blown up by some redneck dumbass who is going to load his van up with bombs and drive it into it.

I don't think it should go there, although I also think that Christians, Jews, and Muslims are insane. xD

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Wait... Park Place? Insert joke about Monopoly here.

It has been said that any publicity is good publicity. In this case, I'd wholly disagree.

By fighting against the "mosque" being built because it's near ground zero, those who follow radicalized versions of Islam have yet another reason to be upset with the western world.

Turning the other cheek in this case would have been the perfect response.

TBH, I was going to say New York but I couldn't resist.

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You're right. Jesus said turn the other cheek, which was good advice until, you know, they crucified him.

Either way, I don't believe it MUST be built. I believe that if it is what the land owner wants, so be it. Your property is your property. As an aside, wasn't there a mosque there before 9/11?

Yes.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38760800/ns/politics-more_politics/

I agree with others, it doesn't HAVE to be built. However, if the owner wishes to build a mosque/community center/whatever there he's perfectly within his right to do so. Provided he (it is a he right?) doesn't violate any zoning laws.

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It shouldn't be built with the name Cordoba House. Cordoba was a Spanish city captured by Muslims. Cordoba House is like us going to Mecca and opening a church called Crusaders Pride. It should have a different name, if it is to be built.

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It shouldn't be built with the name Cordoba House. Cordoba was a Spanish city captured by Muslims. Cordoba House is like us going to Mecca and opening a church called Crusaders Pride. It should have a different name, if it is to be built.

Except that the entire West didn't fight the Reconquista, only Spain did. They're free to call it whatever the hell they want. It's their property.

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The first amendment does allow freedom of religion, however that doesn't give us the right to put buildings wherever we want them, just because said building has something to do with a particular religion. Perhaps if one owned the land themselves, it would give them more ground to stand on.

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On another note, I have my doubts as to it being just a coincidence that some seek to put a Mosque near ground zero.

To me it sounds like some type of statement being made, more then just a simple desire to have a mosque built in a convenient area.

If this is the case, then I'd be willing to bet that the true motive behind their goal is not just to build a new place to worship, but to force tolerance and intentionally piss people off.

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The first amendment does allow freedom of religion, however that doesn't give us the right to put buildings wherever we want them, just because said building has something to do with a particular religion. Perhaps if one owned the land themselves, it would give them more ground to stand on.

They do own the land... wink.gif

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There is no should or must. The net effect of this will be to anger a very large number of people, which is quite likely the point.

The point? They already operate out of the location, only when trying to expand did this blow up into an issue.

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I saw book burning in America where people burned the Koran, Nazis did that. The world is laughing at you now. Nearly 10 years after the fact you have tarred 1 billion people of dozens of nationalities with the same brush and a lot of Americans dont seem to be able to tell the difference between a religion and a tiny group of fanatics. America has never been a tolerant nation. Blacks, Irish, Jews, Muslims, Mexicans, Hispanics, French, Catholics, communists, alleged witches, native Americans, women, people who dress different, people who have different ideas, gays etc have all felt the wrath of mass hysteria in America yet you call yourself the land of the free and look down your nose at the rest of the world

This is not the only Mosque in America people dont want to see built. A quick look at the news (or the daily show)and you will see its coast to coast. Even in California, is that not far enough away from ground zero?

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The only ground that those against the mosque have to stand on is that its probably not a good idea to build it in that particular location, because of (perhaps false) perceptions on the religion.

But legally speaking, theres really not a lot that could be done to prevent it, so long as they own the land, are zoned correctly, and follow all the codes and regulations. Theres really no reason to prevent them, and about the only thing they could do is to pass a regulation stating that religious institutions can't be built within such a space between the WTC site, but that'd be pretty transparent as to purpose and it probably wouldn't fare well against legal challenges.

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Nice to see some sensible viewpoints on here. The hypocrisy, bigotry, and xenophobia surrounding this "debate" has been staggering. It's like just when you think America is starting to live up to its ideals, we find a new group to treat like second class citizens. I can understand where some of the opposition comes from in this case, but we have to be better than that.

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They do own the land... wink.gif

They own some of it. Another building next to the address most in the headlines is a Con Edison building with a lease extending into the decades (I forget, 70 or 90 year lease) with the option for buying the premises. The purchase of land from Con Edison would have to pass a state board review (IIRC) in order to finally go through. I don't believe there's much doubt that they'll be able to purchase it but there's a small group lobbying to block it so the community center as presently planned doesn't get completed.

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They own some of it. Another building next to the address most in the headlines is a Con Edison building with a lease extending into the decades (I forget, 70 or 90 year lease) with the option for buying the premises. The purchase of land from Con Edison would have to pass a state board review (IIRC) in order to finally go through. I don't believe there's much doubt that they'll be able to purchase it but there's a small group lobbying to block it so the community center as presently planned doesn't get completed.

I'm aware of that. I was responding to a claim that they didn't have a legal leg to stand on unless they owned the land.

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I think that people are mainly upset that the Ground Zero memorial hasn't been finished yet, and chose to take their anger out on this.

Oblivious to the fact that it's in part a 9/11 memorial itself. Funny how that detail is ignored...

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I think you misread... dry.gif

Please explain what you meant by this then

We have, no matter how much we wish to forget it, caused great harm to Islamic civilization over the last century and over the past 3 decades

Does this not say that we have done great harm to Islamic civilization in the past 30 years?

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Please explain what you meant by this then

Does this not say that we have done great harm to Islamic civilization in the past 30 years?

I see your mistake...

, they've returned the favor with the vigor and zeal that would be admirable if better placed.

Pro tip: It's not a good idea to stop reading 1/2 way thru a sentence. tongue.gif

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MF, I think you meant to write:

We have, no matter how much we wish to forget it, caused great harm to Islamic civilization over the last century, and over the past 3 decades they've returned the favor with the vigor and zeal that would be admirable if better placed.

What's the link between Ground Zero and Islam, anyway? If I came to the US to bomb something, claiming that I do it on behalf of the FSM, would the government, the Americans or somone else seriously believe that the problem is Pastafarianism? "Islamic Terrorist" is an oxymoron - or a nonsense at best - and getting the conversation rid of this kind of crap is the first step if we really want to hope we can get anything productive out of it.

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