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Pity the Victors


Vladimir

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KarmaAndPowerInATree.jpg

With the ongoing curbstomp of NSO, many questions are no doubt whizzing through the minds of regular La Vanguardia Pacifica readers. Why is Vladimir always right? When will Bob Janova concede the victory of materialist analysis and become a Francoist? And I'm sure there are probably others too.

This is a particularly interesting turn of events for two reasons: first, because curbstomps were so loudly condemned throughout Karma as the personification of the old decadent order, and secondly because so many people have attacked the idea that the new powers are essentially the same as the old on the basis that 'at least there haven't been any curbstomps' (debatable to start with, demonstrable nonsense now).

'But this curbstomp was justified!' come the cries of the New Hegemony. We must first say plainly that despite the misdirection poured on top of it this is in fact an alliance-scale war (potentially a global-scale war) over $6 million in aid to a nation. Moreover, it is a war that was rushed into operation 6 full hours before update without even attempting a diplomatic solution -- that is to say, without ever talking to the leaders of the NSO despite ample opportunity. This is extraordinary since these issues arise all the time in alliance affairs and are resolved peacefully, and indeed, alliances engaging in this attack have done exactly the same with nations going rogue on the NPO and ithers in the past. All that is to say: if this were a legitimate justification for war then we'd be having one every week. It is unquestionably a fabrication.

But while ostensibly important given the current debate, this is all besides the point. When Karma was busy condemning curbstomps and justifying the great war as a way of removing them from the world, they were not condemning the content of the (often watertight) justifications used, rather they were condemning the form that the attack took -- that is, they were condemning the very concept of the curbstomp. It is not difficult to see why, since it sums up so well in a single action the power relations of the world -- the overwhelming strength of one group against the complete impotence of another.

Never has this been so clear as today since this is not a normal curbstomp, but rather, as many people have already pointed out, it is meant as a provocation -- a means to the removal of all of the potential competition, no matter how weak and disjointed. This much is clear from the needless nature of the curbstomp and the needless nature of the tactics pursued. Why bring half the world to fight against an already wounded NSO, and, more importantly, why have the other half of the world sitting on standby "if [RoK] needs us" (why would they be needed?).

Moreover, the not-so-subtle glimmer in the eyes of the attackers as they attempt to bait their other targets into war gives their hopes away somewhat: "Well, good stuff, but if your allies were actually your friends, they'd activate their treaties anyways, so I'll be intrigued to see what happens." This has been taken to such an extreme that several statesmen have begun to question the fact that discussion seems to revolve more around NSO's allies than NSO themselves.

And all this following directly on the heels of the 'Red Raiding Safari', which was a rather explicit (if silly) attempt to force the NPO into war.

It is simple enough to see that this is the logical conclusion of the old 'ex-Hegemony' theory -- the idea that there is some sort of cohesive enemy out there for the New Hegemony to fight against. Over the past month this theory has been falling increasingly out of favour as various members of the New Hegemony realise the pointlessness of it -- there is no-one to propagate against, and the more likely outcome is to see alliances treaty with the less vocal New Hegemony alliances. As such we are witnessing a last throw of the dice, as the New Hegemony attempts to salvage their raison d'etre by creating their enemy on the battlefield. But ultimately this is not a show of strength, but rather one of weakness. It is a sign that the New Hegemony is little more than a hollow husk. An entity with no positive vision, no sense of self, condemned to to try and relive past glories by beating up the corpses of long-since deceased enemies.

The New Hegemony has thus betrayed two things about itself today, and neither one is cause for envy.

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I find it hypocritical that you say there is no collective that is referred to as 'ex-Hegemony' yet imply that there is one that you refer to as 'New Hegemony'.

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Did you actually read the article, Arcturus Jefferson? If you look two sentences prior to the one you quoted: "the New Hegemony [is attempting] to salvage their raison d'etre by creating their enemy on the battlefield."

The existence of a collective entity that I call the 'New Hegemony' is self-evident, since and not a matter of dispute by its members, goldielax25. They are linked together by blocs and act together in the political field (such as going to war as they did today).

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I got an "A" in Social Studies so this is to be expected, really.

*chuckles heartily [at Arcturus Jefferson's poor education, since I can't simply write "*chuckles hearily*", which, after all, would have been a much more appropriate riposte, but alas, we have to provide reasons for when we write these things]*

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*chuckles heartily [at Arcturus Jefferson's poor education, since I can't simply write "*chuckles hearily*", which, after all, would have been a much more appropriate riposte, but alas, we have to provide reasons for when we write these things]*

Finally I know what's going on. Jeez, took you guys long enough.

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You should join Athens Vladimir - you could give us some new meaning and purpose for our lives. Francoist purpose. Also, we've been missing a good propagandist since Jack Diorno left the game. Think you can fill those shoes? :awesome:

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Never has this been so clear as today since this is not a normal curbstomp, but rather, as many people have already pointed out, it is meant as a provocation -- a means to the removal of all of the potential competition, no matter how weak and disjointed.

Thieves believe that everyone steals.

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Wars have started over much less, Vladimir. In fact, Pacifica has started wars over much less.

Notwithstanding the fact that I have retired from government service, I was nevertheless the person Ragnarok's Emperor contacted to inform Nordreich of the situation. (The world is run by those who show up, after all.) Later, I was told of NSO's response and, ultimately, that our ally would be going to war.

The lengthy conversations between Ragnarok and myself took place over several hours. It may shock you to learn that your alliance's august name was not mentioned at all during these lengthy dialogues, except at the very end when I finally visited the CN Wiki to see who the NSO is tied to. Actually, cancel that. I don't know that it will shock you at all. What I do know is that it will disappoint you.

If you believe this is some kind of 'set-up', then you have gone from 'that guy who writes long articles that seem to say something but really don't' to 'conspiracy theorist'. No doubt people will praise you, regardless, but that shouldn't surprise you. The tomacco juice you serve may taste terrible, but some folks just can't stop drinking it.

trap.gif

IT'S A TRAP!

Oh wait, no it isn't.

You see, if the purpose of this war was to yet again destroy Pacifica, Ragnarok's allies simply could have declared pre-emptively against any alliance holding an MDP-or-higher with the NSO. There is plenty of precedent for this. Your own former Emperor (and former NSO Emperor) Ivan Moldavi has previously spoken in favor of pre-emptive attacks. That this has not happened would tend to further undermine your argument.

However, since you've brought this matter up....

Last night, after the NSO's public request that its allies do nothing, I was in one of NoR's private IRC channels. I mentioned a long-ago war against BAPS, when a small alliance by the name of TDSM8 ignored BAPS' similar request and went to war in defense of their allies. I hopped over to the CN Wiki and looked at NSO's current treaties. Prefacing my comments by saying that I believed the NSO would defend its allies in a similar situation, I produced a short-list of alliances I believed had the integrity to ignore such a request.

It was a surprisingly short list, I must admit, but yours was the first name I mentioned. For, despite my 'unreasonable hatred' toward Pacifica, I genuinely believe(d) that you honor treaties to the letter.

But then it was pointed out to me that most of the NSO's treaties include an opt-out clause, meaning that many of their allies can sit on their hands, say "We didn't get an invitation" and watch as a friend suffers wave after wave of attacks. Such honor. Such friendship. Such commitment.

The New Pacific Order does not enjoy that option, however:

2. The New Sith Order and The New Pacific Order will defend one another in the event of war. This obligation shall be considered annulled in the event that that war was a result of another treaty obligation. Note that although the obligation is annulled, both sides still maintain the right to defend one another in this situation.

I know that, generally speaking, the first response to these kinds of observations is a snide "Thank you for interpreting our words for us", "We honor friends' requests" or some other comment that generally ignores the question completely.

With that in mind, can you explain your alliance's apparent willingness to ignore this clause in your treaty? Can you do so while referencing only the treaty, and not some random conversation between your respective governments? Is a treaty with Pacifica's name on it really as worthless as you would have us believe?

I don't want to believe that, but I don't see many other options.

If Pacifica is going to stand on the sidelines regardless of the fact that it has no legitimate reason to do so, would you be good enough to explain why anyone would ever want to sign a treaty with you in the future?

You should join Athens Vladimir - you could give us some new meaning and purpose for our lives. Francoist purpose. Also, we've been missing a good propagandist since Jack Diorno left the game. Think you can fill those shoes?

Vladimir possesses many talents, but I doubt that even he walks well in pumps.

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You get yourself caught in a bit of a contradiction there, Ashoka. You start off by saying that this war has nothing to do with anyone but NSO, and then you go on to argue that opposing alliances have to join it and actively complain that they don't (the first time I ever remember seeing such talk).

This is your post. Two diametrically opposed halves, the first articulating the official position, the second betraying the underlying desire.

This is surprising coming from you, since you have previously agreed with my points on anti-Pacificanism and the failure of Karma.

The lengthy conversations between Ragnarok and myself took place over several hours.

Lucky you. You got more diplomatic attention than NSO did.

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I just don't understand Vlad, how you can sit here and condemn people for actions which you supported in the NPO and Continuum. Yes, this is a curbstomp, but your precious NPO would have done the same (and did). Saying "the NPO made mistakes" won't save you this time, because you yourself supported it. Frankly I find this blog (while well written to be sure) rather silly. After all, you'r side has LOST. The NPO and its allies are dead in the political scene, and no amount of fear mongering against Karma on your part is going to bring them back to power. I'm not quite sure whether you are hoping for a glorious Pacifican revolution or something, but thats not happening any time soon. My advice? Accept that neither side is moral, and stop preaching like the NPO is pure and right.

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Unfortunately your thoughts are based on two misconceptions, comrade. These are popular defence mechanisms, but critical thought demands that we overcome them.

The first is the idea that what the NPO did or did not do is relevant. It has been a year and a half since the Continuum broke up and the NPO fell from power -- that's a third of all history. My posts are analyses of what is happening in the world and what it means. The constant attempts to turn this into a commentary on NPO policies from 2007 only serves to demonstrate my closing point about the New Hegemony -- that it is an entity with no positive vision or sense of self beyond a long out-dated oppositionalism to the old hegemony. In this sense it is not us who have to accept that we lost (which I accept repeatedly thoughout this very article), but the New Hegemony who have to accept that they won.

Moreover, since the New Hegemony is premised on a complete rejection of everything that the NPO ever stood for, saying 'NPO did it' is a self-criticism rather than a defence.

The second misconception is that criticism of the New Hegemony to be some sort of secret plot for power. I'm not sure what more there is to say about this since your argument, based not only on a misunderstanding of what I am arguing but the complete opposite of it, is essentially 'the New Hegemony is too powerful to be criticised'.

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*claps hands* well played sir. I must admit, this comment I posted was more a way to see how you would respond than anything else. I find myself in the rare position of saying that I agree with you on this article. However, what I do object to is lumping both the Super friends and C&G into one group. If this were the actions of the entire new hegemony, then we would have both allies arrayed against the NSO. As you can see however, we do not. So, for this event until further notice it is probably safer to refer to them as separate entities.

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That's fair comment. However, I would say that if you look at the political field there is little question that the two blocs are at one on this. Of course, having everyone attack at once would be overkill, but if other alliances were to enter the war and SuperFriends were losing, do you for one moment believe that C&G would sit on the sidelines? Of course not, they would enter the war against NSO's friends. Just because only one part of the New Hegemony is actively engaged doesn't mean they that the other half isn't heavily involved -- they're just making up a strategic reserve instead.

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Your question is irrelevant except insofar as it demonstrates your ambition. I will applaud the new generation of propagandists for their daring, however. There weren't many times in history when you could claim that someone doing what their ally wants them to do makes them a bad ally, and get away with it.

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I am asking why your alliance is not following its treaty to the letter.

Every other NSO ally enjoys the 'right' to sit on the sidelines, except Pacifica.

This isn't some vague argument about the 'spirit' of an agreement, but a very direct question about a document signed by your Emperor.

If you see that as somehow irrelevant, then I suppose I have my answer about what has changed in this 'new' New Pacific Order.

Nothing.

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Sorry Vlad, I'm not going to be joining you in the halls of amoral materialism any time soon :awesome:

You do make some good points lately regarding SG's apparent lumbering towards a 'new hegemony' position, but you miss the mark this time. The place where you misaimed can be nailed down to this section:

But while ostensibly important given the current debate, this is all besides the point. When Karma was busy condemning curbstomps and justifying the great war as a way of removing them from the world, they were not condemning the content of the (often watertight) justifications used, rather they were condemning the form that the attack took -- that is, they were condemning the very concept of the curbstomp.

If you look at the reaction to one of the few justified Hegemony stompings – Golden Sabres – you'll that that isn't really true. I'm sure you can find some quotes from individuals saying the opposite, there are always those, but the outrage certainly wasn't at the level of that during the unjustified ones. Justification does matter and that's why this case is not a particularly hegemonic action, even though the military position is similar. (A better example was the TPF war which I think you said similar things about.)

And as an aside, the idea that most of the Hegemony's wars had a 'watertight' justification is pretty laughable. I was in the Hegemony for most of them and they were generally warmongering junk (which is why we didn't participate in most of them).

Yes, some of the baiting of NSO's allies is straight out of the One Vision era, in particular I'm thinking of the GATO war, and is deeply unseemly. That, and the 'don't bother defending us', reflects SG's dominant position, and the presence of unpleasant idiots on all sides of the world.

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