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Thanks, Grämlins

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Bob Janova

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When I left you back in November, it was a hard decision, to leave the alliance I had been a part of since I got into politics, and one which provided me with a lot of good times. I wondered whether I was too hasty, whether I should stay still longer and try to hold the alliance on the course we had been on prior to that.

Recently you have shown everyone that no, you really are that nuts, and you have comprehensively trashed everything that made Grämlins, well, Grämlins, as well as being a major factor in the destruction of the Citadel power sphere. So there is now no old home for me to idealise and which I was back in, which makes it that much easier to settle in as a Viridian. You've even driven several of my old friends into the waiting arms of the Viridian protectorate Ninjas so I'm talking to them regularly again!

So, thanks for that.

As a side note, Grämlins now has less members than it did in the summer of '07 when we decided it was too large to run things by direct democracy any longer. Maybe you should go back to that, let the membership have its say on terms, surrender and so on.

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I am too starting to find all this continuous talking about The Grämlins a bit annoying, Bob, but I acknowledge your right to insist on it, especially considering how important they were for you.

However, I am surprised that you're still giving credit to the "insanity theory" about Grä/Ram. ITT that you, more than most of the other spectators, already came out (more than once?) with "it's that stupid that I can't believe so many intelligent people are/were doing it" statements.

Now, that's probably true: it is that stupid that they can't really be doing it (in the way and for the reasons they at first seemed to be doing it).

I don't know what they're about - maybe we'll never know - but I highly doubt that it's just "insanity": obviously there's some plan going on.

It's not insane that they woke up with the idea of unconditional surrender at one point, it's definitely a bad idea for many reasons in moral terms, but it's not insane if you can enforce this on your opponents. That is the only practical limit of peace terms (or not if you don't want to actually offer them).

What is, by all means, insane is insisting on that plan long after it became enforceable, against the amount of public resistance, killing your own alliance in the process of sticking to the plan.

So not the plan, but the failure to realize it failed, and then sticking to it is completely nuts. No plan should be pursued if it ends up hurting mostly the one who made the plan in the first place

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Please leave Argent out of this bickering. We are still allied to everyone that was in Citadel except for Gre. We pushed harder than anyone for you guys to get your crap together. Citadel as an Idea died when OG was given the boot and it never recovered from that so let's leave Citadel out of this. Gre is entitled to commit suicide or whatever they wish. As a former die-hard hitchhiker it makes me very sad, however, they are soverign and have the right to do as they please.

You have always had my respect Bob and continue to. I just hate to see this bickering brought to this place when it should have died long ago.

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You have my sympathies Synth, I recognize a lot of things you mention.

Bob, I have to agree with Jerdge that the Gremlins do have a reationale for their actions, it is only that they're trying to change the norms of CN. People are worried about this change, because we've seen in the past how alliances abused their power over a defeated party.

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The thing is Bob I find it hard to swallow when long standing members of gramlins pontificate at length about the fall of the alliance. Of course you are to blame, you and the rest of them were in a position to correct the downward trend before it got out of hand. There was a discussion about removing Ramirus from the gramlins a long time ago, it would be nice if one of you had the stones to buck up and say "yeah we knew we had a cancer, we were just to lazy to remove it"

I was there for about 5 months, I knew in the first 2 weeks what the problem was. Here we are years later after what is perhaps one of the greatest falls from grace the cyberverse has seen and people still wont accept thier portion of the blame. Not just you bob, you were one of the reasons I came to Gramlins you are an excellent player and I have a lot of respect for you. I also understand why you left when you did and why you did, I left too and tried to get out before the conflict with Iron but stayed to fight for the alliance that provided me shelter.

That makes us both rats fleeing a sinking ship Bob, and that goes for a lot of other ex gramlins out there to.

The thing to remember is that this is a game. A player shouldn't have to feel compelled to single handily "fix" an alliance. They should go where they feel things are working and where they fit in.

Bob, I'm glad you posted this. Its sad to see Gre fall apart like they have, and its sad to see what is happening to IRON.

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People need to remember that removing Ram wasn't as easy; not everyone agreed to it and quite a few threatened to leave if we did. I wished we would have, but we didn't.

Anyone blaming Bob is an idiot, and anyone saying "You're crying has annoyed me more than anything GRE has done in the last month," yeah, we get it, you're trying to be "cool" by not giving a damn, but its a community to others.

Tromp: Whether a plan or not, it's still idiotic and Gremlins' history proves they themselves would never unconditionally surrender to an enemy.

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baawwwwwwww.

You're just too funny, bob. You and the rest of the old crew had the alliance in a strangle-hold. You guys were the gatekeepers for everything. But first you were too lazy so you let Ram start running stuff behind the scenes. Then you were too inactive to keep him from officially taking control. And now you all complain that the alliance has turned into something you don't like.

Thank you for leaving, bob. You did the alliance good in the end.

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baawwwwwwww.

You're just too funny, bob. You and the rest of the old crew had the alliance in a strangle-hold. You guys were the gatekeepers for everything. But first you were too lazy so you let Ram start running stuff behind the scenes. Then you were too inactive to keep him from officially taking control. And now you all complain that the alliance has turned into something you don't like.

Thank you for leaving, bob. You did the alliance good in the end.

Gee your right, look at you guys now, sure has become a better place. Your trail blazing innovators with the might to crush those whom you find deserving and make them atone for their sins by submitting to unconditional surrender. Ram is doing great, your position now is efficient, sound, and even more well respected then it was before. All that seemingly crazy list making and yelling about indents payed off in the end, as your clearly militarily sound as well.

Oh no wait, you went from one of the most powerful and liked alliances in the game to 38 nations and 2 mil NS, pretty much universally considered idiots, and loosing to the group you tried to punish. Woops.

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Tromp: Whether a plan or not, it's still idiotic and Gremlins' history proves they themselves would never unconditionally surrender to an enemy.

I think it is pretty clear that the Gremlins of the past is no more...

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I'm pretty sure I didn't mention TOP (or Argent) in the post you guys are replying to ... though yes, I do like TOP, and Argent, and Umbrella, and MHA, and Fark, and MK and (etc).

But first you were too lazy so you let Ram start running stuff behind the scenes. Then you were too inactive to keep him from officially taking control.

Not sure if this is referring to me personally or the 'old crew' collectively. But either way, you know Ram, he just goes and does things whether you 'let' him or not (in fact him doing that in FA was what finally made me quit), often without even telling you about it. And what gave him control was (i) you and Spartus promoting him when you knew I was out of the country, and (ii) the members voting for him or no-one else standing for those positions.

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People need to remember that removing Ram wasn't as easy; not everyone agreed to it and quite a few threatened to leave if we did. I wished we would have, but we didn't.

Anyone blaming Bob is an idiot, and anyone saying "You're crying has annoyed me more than anything GRE has done in the last month," yeah, we get it, you're trying to be "cool" by not giving a damn, but its a community to others.

Tromp: Whether a plan or not, it's still idiotic and Gremlins' history proves they themselves would never unconditionally surrender to an enemy.

True this. I know some people defended Ram back then, considering him childish but ultimately harmless. Hindsight is 20/20, as they say.

But c'est la vie.

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anyone saying "You're crying has annoyed me more than anything GRE has done in the last month," yeah, we get it, you're trying to be "cool" by not giving a damn, but its a community to others.

Ha, yeah, it's all me trying to look cool, you got me. Unbelievable.

I do give a damn about what Gre are doing and I do feel sorry for the members of the alliance to see their home burned down around them over something so silly. This doesn't mean I have to default to an 'I agree with Bob he is really great' position just because he's on the same side of the fence.

I most certainly do not give a damn about him repeating the same tears about his former home when (as has been already said) he is at the very least partly responsible for allowing Gre to go down this road. It's almost as though he believes that by making as big a fuss as possible about it now, he can absolve himself for not doing enough when he was in a position to and when it mattered.

No dice, Janova. You dropped the ball and it's rolled on down the hill, maybe it would be best to let it go now and allow others to take up the chase. That would probably be better than running after it screaming "I do not like the course you're taking!" when by doing so you slowly begin to draw the attention of the people to the guy who dropped it in the first place.

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baawwwwwwww.

You're just too funny, bob. You and the rest of the old crew had the alliance in a strangle-hold. You guys were the gatekeepers for everything. But first you were too lazy so you let Ram start running stuff behind the scenes. Then you were too inactive to keep him from officially taking control. And now you all complain that the alliance has turned into something you don't like.

Thank you for leaving, bob. You did the alliance good in the end.

Hi Ertyy. What is your position in Grämlins again? Archon? According to the forums, it says you are Dark Archon as well (which was designed, btw, to stop situations like this from happening).

So, don't think you have much room to criticize Bob for "letting this happen", eh?

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The embassies of all the Citadel alliances on our home boards were always dead because we did the interaction in Citadel IRC and forums. However, this:

... has some element of truth to it (as I said in my last reply, some people were actively working against Citadel at that time). I was certainly trying my best though. Unfortunately people on both sides of the fence (in Grä/Umbrella and TOP/Argent) were tired of talking to each other and my efforts were not enough to keep things together.

I'm not really sure what Shah's talking about either. After Grämlins left Continuum IRON turned pretty cold to us and I'm not aware of any sort of talks like what he describes, though the timing could be after I left.

After you guys left Citadel relations remained cordial and I as DSoS for IRON at the time actively pursued a relationship between the two alliances. At this time IRON still had alot of respect for Gre and this later resulted in us signing a ToA with hopes of building on it, well at least from our point of view anyway. I believe Chill was Praetor during that period, when he stepped down communication also decreased until the outbreak of the Karma war when the ToA was cancelled by you guys.

I believe what Shah is referring to is a later approach by Ramirus on the 23rd of November encouraging us to drop ties with TOP, and align with Gremlins. It seems a tad IRONic now.

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Ah, well I quit on the 17th, so I wouldn't know about that ... though it does rather help make my point that the people I left behind weren't interested in Citadel if that was his first move after I left. (During a time when he was not nominally involved in FA at all, as in fact I think he has not been for his entire time in Grämlins <_<.)

After you guys left Citadel relations remained cordial and I as DSoS for IRON at the time actively pursued a relationship between the two alliances. At this time IRON still had alot of respect for Gre and this later resulted in us signing a ToA with hopes of building on it, well at least from our point of view anyway

You've got your timeline a bit confused here. That time of cordial relations preceded the signing of the ToA in November 2008, around a month before we left.

Aimee, you really didn't have to read this blog entry, you know :P. I don't really like it when people say I 'didn't do enough' without having been there or made any suggestions of what more I should have done.

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I think it is pretty clear that the Gremlins of the past is no more...

And I'm pretty sure whether gone or not they're still acting retarded.

Furthermore, I love this huge conception that everything was 'fine and dandy' and that all of us gremlins sat down for a tea party and agreed to remove Ram. I also love how some try categorizing ALL former Gremlins as not doing anything; it was a split decision and unfortunately some threatened to leave. Ultimately, we should have done it anyways because anyone threatening to leave over a majority decision and placing themselves before the alliance merely shouldn't be there.

There was internal strife and ultimately, I left because no one wished to removed Ram even after all the things he did. The internal strife was too much and this is a game; I dealt with it for months and even after leaving, I took a few months away from the game. Funnily enough, all the people who defended him now despise him, or nearly everyone.

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Aimee, you really didn't have to read this blog entry, you know :P.

Burying my head in the sand and ignoring a problem won't make it go away.

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I didn't say tC was filled with people who hated the Gramlins. I said it was a bloc led by an alliance filled with people who hated them.

Subtle difference.

I thought I was being clear. Apparently not.

Hmm, my bad. Read it wrong.

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Well we said no, we wouldn't go to war over the defence of TPF and quite frankly felt of the crisis a plague on both there houses.

we could understand why TOP and Argent wanted to get involved, at the same time we had Umbrella gov telling us that they too felt this was not a cit issue, right until a few hours after we announced our intentions when umb suddenly caved to pressure to support you

Yah...wanted to get involved is a strong statement. TPF could have burned for all I cared. We won't let our allies burn though, and especially over a weak 6 month old CB like that. At no time did we pressure Umbrella, FCC, TOP, or Gremlins to support us. We have accepted, and will always accept that each alliance has a duty not just to us, but to their other allies and themselves, to do what they feel is right. We offered to leave Citadel to avoid dragging any of the rest of you into the CF.

Keep us out of this, we tried to be the shades of gray in a bloc made up of 2 BLACK OR WHITE alliances constantly having measuring contests between one another.

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Burying my head in the sand and ignoring a problem won't make it go away.

It will if the problem is 'you are annoyed by something'. I get annoyed by all the micro alliances announcing stuff nobody cares about ... except I don't because I choose not to read those threads. If you think the problem is 'too much attention is being paid to Grämlins' ... well, there's a 150 page thread full of people to go an complain to, and a lot of those people have a less valid reason to mention it than I do.

Janax, I know your comment was not directed at me but I always appreciated Argent's role in Citadel and you're good guys.

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If you think the problem is 'too much attention is being paid to Grämlins' ... well, there's a 150 page thread full of people to go an complain to, and a lot of those people have a less valid reason to mention it than I do.

The problem is YOU 'paying attention' (that is a nice way of putting what you're trying to do, really) to Gre. The good folks of the 150 page thread have a right to complain about what has become of Gre because there wasn't much they could do about the situation until it was too late. You, on the other hand, had that chance, but you flunked it, and yet you have had the audacity to pontificate over what the alliance has become for weeks now.

In your own words: "obviously I didn't do enough", "my efforts were not enough", "some of it is probably my fault", "Like I said, I failed" and "I'm guilty of [...] not being good enough at stopping the rot". Given those comments, why on earth do you think you're in any position to give repeated lectures of criticism towards Gre telling them all how they've really let themselves go, when the Gre we see today is because of your own inaction and incompetence yesterday?

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Seems I can just use my previous comment to you here:

I don't really like it when people say I 'didn't do enough' without having been there or made any suggestions of what more I should have done.

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Synth :3 learning a lot :3

Also, Bob, I think you have lost your touch as it were quite a bit lately due to this whole conflict being so goddamn close to home for you, but I can respect your opinions here and thank you and Synth for both kinda helping me understand what exactly happened to cause this all to happen.

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Hi Ertyy. What is your position in Grämlins again? Archon? According to the forums, it says you are Dark Archon as well (which was designed, btw, to stop situations like this from happening).

So, don't think you have much room to criticize Bob for "letting this happen", eh?

Reading comprehension ftw. Nowhere did I indicate that I personally disagreed with Ram's ascension to overmind status.

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