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Thoughts on Gramlins


Shan Revan

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OOC]Citizens of the cyberverse, I would like to apologise for dragging this out further. I know we are all rather tired of this fiasco at this point, however I wrote this a while ago and then my computer died. I have managed to recover most of my data, including this. I have updated it a little to better reflect the current situation, however for the most part it remains the same. It seemed a waste to just leave it and so I now burden you all with another source of Gramlins drama. My apologies.

While I am still in OOC mode, I would also like to take the chance to apologise to my opponents during the real war, I resigned from Council shortly before the war started due to great time constraints with RL, and sadly this was reflected during battle. I probably only managed to check my nation eight times or so for the entirety of it. As a bit of a war whore, I am greatly saddened that I did not get to gain and inflict many casualties, and my casualty rank has gone down significantly. Also war banter is always fun and so I regret the chance to have fun with my opponents. Hopefully should we meet again, we do so under better circumstances and we can have a jolly old time.[/OOC]

To fully understand the current situation between Gramlins, a knowledge of the history our relationship is required. Whilst it is a long history, I shall attempt to condense it down to a couple of paragraphs for you.

We first truly met during the formation of the Mobius accords. I believe we both had a large mutual respect for each other at this time and relations were generally good. It was however the lead up to the War of the Coalition and the events following it shortly that we began to have problems. They were one of the greatest proponents for war against Polaris, who at the time despite a lot of fallout we still considered friends and were trying to protect. When they (and the others) eventually got their way, we reluctantly had to assist in the war, as per our treaties. We pre-emptively struck elements of the BLEU block, Neuva Vida and PUKE on the behalf of those attacking polar. Whilst we initially did demand reparations, this was mostly done to assist RoK, afterwards we privately cleared NV and PUKE of any terms to us and let them go as we never wanted any in the first place. It was however their departure from Continuum shortly after this war that started to send things sour. We largely felt that we had been used by Gramlins to satisfy their hard on for Polaris. Once they had used the bloc for their dirty work, they left, flaunting morals and reasons which were very contradictory to some of their past behaviour which further enhanced the perception of being used.

As the karma war loomed, diplomatic relations started again, and it seemed as though they were wanting to patch things up. The timing was noticed but the thought of keeping that devastating Gramlins top tier off our side was certainly appealing. It seemed like it would be for naught however. As the war quickly accelerated, and it became clear we would be entering regardless, they requested we would not attack any of their allies, so they could remain on the periphery. Unfortunately we trusted them a little more than we should have, believing, in those desperate times that perhaps this was an old friend trying to help us. While they may have been trying to help us, it wasn't long before they attacked us, because we were disrupting the balance too greatly. They had to ensure that Pacifica was destroyed. A position we were not pleased with, but at least they then promised to keep anyone else off of us and they would stay off our allies. This is why we waived the cancellation time clause in our TOA when they cancelled it. We foolishly believed we could keep them off our allies and that it would keep others off us. We were after all best suited to taking on Gramlins (and had we not been dog-piled even more shortly after it would have been an interesting war). I think it was but the next day that their promises were again broken when several more attacked us.Turns out it wasn't enough, they claimed that several of those attacking us were whining about taking too much damage and had called on others to attack us. I think they fingered CSN and Fark specifically at the time but I may be wrong and would have to look it up. Those who had made the promises left the alliance following this and largely proceeded to laugh in our faces and blame us. Perhaps it was indeed our fault - it's clear now they are not an alliance who can be trusted. I will give them credit where credit is due however, and they did apparently help somewhat in achieving an acceptable peace for us. So if nothing else we were grateful for that. This gratitude was hardly as much as they were expecting however, after all, they may have helped us but they did attack us, and in our opinion they had broken their word to us on multiple counts, yet somehow it was in the positive and we were still interested in patching things up. After all this was to be a brave new world, and having a friend in Gramlins would be helpful.

It was our first encounters with Ramirus Maximus however that rapidly burned what little relationship points they had gained from us away. At this time he was but a low level government member, in charge of tech or something. He would incessantly ask us to do tech farms for Gramlins, something we turned down each time. If anything we wanted to be importing tech en-mass to recover our lost stock from the war, not sell it off. However he would not understand this and continued to bug council members day and night. Eventually we proceeded to ignore him. When he made his way to the top position that was about the end of any hopes for a positive relationship.

And so finally we come to current crisis. After accepting what we believed to be official terms offered by the government, were thoroughly annoyed to learn that that was in fact, apparently not the case. We are led to believe (at least according to MathewPK) that Gramlins had not actually sent an authorised representative to any of the negotiations and that these these terms were offered in error. I might believe that to be the case had it not been offered twice. Instead I believe that on a drunken night of WWII pacific theatre war movies, someone got some brilliant idea and vetoed our surrender. Even if this is not the case. Had Gramlins actually taken the negotiations seriously, sent an authorised person with whatever terms they are keeping secret - they may very well have gotten them along with admitting guilt. After all they constantly insist that they can't be that bad. To be honest I wouldn't even be surprised if they were incredibly lenient. At this point they wont be accepted.

I am amazed by many things they have said, claimed and done, however what amazes me the most is their apparent ability to doublethink. They freely grab a dictionary and take words for it, and sometimes, like unconditional surrender, even give technically correct, albeit odd definitions. Yet they consistently misuse these terms as if they have some vastly different meaning. It astounds me. A dictionary is not a list of cool sounding words to pick and choose from, and then make arbitrary meanings for, each word is pre-defined, and each definition has a certain meaning.

This is not their only case of doublethink, of course not! The irony of them attempting a police action from the side against police actions is outright hilarious. Let's not forget the fact that passing judgement in this manner is one of the purported greatest crimes the Hegemony ever committed. I gladly assisted in disbanding alliances in the aftermath of the UJW, I believe that I was doing a service to the community. Yet today it is different, I still believe many of these reformed alliances are detrimental to the world at large (Heck the advertisement for GOONS on something awful is largely about making people cry and ruining the game as can be seen here, [warning, foul language etc] http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/bannerads/53fcea9c14f2977964bbedb351121425.png and http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3282006 ), but I would no longer disband them for it and nor would I demand an unconditional surrender. The days of such actions being acceptable are meant to be long since gone.

The greatest problem however is that they want to pass holy judgement upon us without knowing us, our beliefs or our reasons. They prefer to make up their own or take at face value the words of others. We are not an immoral alliance. One of our core beliefs is trying to be a generally good alliance. War in and of itself is an act of evil be it on the on the offensive or in defence of friends. By definition it is an aggressive action (even if it has defensive or passive intent). However it is often a necessary evil, and if one is to participate in such and one feels justified in committing evil, they have already committed the immoral act by declaring war, the means of war [at least how it pertains to Cyber Nations in game/character] is largely an amoral decision. Be it for a greater good or simply in betterment or defence of your friends and alliance, you should do all in your power to be as effective as possible in the conflict. It is here that we justify pre-emptive strikes, just as we did so for Gramlins, TOP, MCXA and many others who wanted polar blood, just as we believed we did in defence of our allies, the New Sith Order. To say we did so without any reason at all is simply false. To say we did so out of paranoia is also false, we did so because we saw it as the most effective place for us to fight in the war as a whole. Not as a separate front, nor as a separate war. Dividing conflicts like this is merely a tool of propaganda, one we used in the WoTC and one that was used against us when polar et al peaced out leaving us behind. We desperately sought peace and were denied. I do not blame them for this, I would likely take the same opportunity to beat down one of my greatest potential opponents. To say our reasons were anything other than doing what we thought would help win this conflict for our allies however is out-rightly false. I would just like to note here that our most recent dow was generally terrible attempt at a joke, if you look back through most of our DoWs very few of them are actually serious and many are jokes or sarcastic hyperbole. Some good examples of this are our WoTC DOW and our GATO war DOW.

Even more false is it to believe that we desire to prey upon and hold some kind of grudge against our opponents of the last couple of wars. Ignoring the fact that in both cases we blatantly lost, and the fact that we actually declared war on vastly different sections of the treaty map. We had actually attempted to build better relations with some of these alliance during the inter-war period. For example, despite our great culture clash, I believe our Question and Answer session with Mushroom Kingdom left both parties with a greater respect for each other. Some attempts were successful, and others were largely ignored or rebuffed.

Not only is this extended war apparently removing this blight against our freedom, it's simply fun. When was the last time two great alliances effectively had a 1v1 without outside interference. Despite the restrictions placed upon us, we are enjoying this, the extra restrictions merely add to the challenge and enjoyment of defeating these deluded fools. For this I would like to gratefully thank the signatories of the ESA, for allowing us to face off against gramlins 1v1. It has been a blast.

At the end of the day however, we just want to move on. We accept that we were wrong about certain things and I doubt we'll be pre-emptively striking any time soon. The only one this extended war actually benefits is us, it's removing a maniacal alliance that not only can't use a dictionary, seems to honestly think our acts are comparable to the 9/11 attacks, that we are criminals of the highest order, and that we are the embodiment of World War II Japan. An alliance lead by a deluded and spiteful man and his brainwashed cronies, inflicting some of the greatest evil upon ourselves and the Cyberverse at large, in the name of other parties who do not want it in the first place. All because of their twisted definition of justice. Despite all this, we just want to move on. Make our amends to the parties who were actually aggrieved and move on towards the future. This is why we still offer white peace, but your stubbornness is wearing thin. More and more councillors are slowly deciding that you do not deserve white peace, and once that reaches a majority, who knows what you will get? One thing I will promise however is that it will be much better than unconditional surrender. We are better than that - we are better than Gramlins. Unconditional surrender is a term we vehemently oppose and will not propagate. Regardless of how deserving of it the Gramlins may be.

Gramlins take your peace whilst you can; we will not hold out the olive branch for much longer.

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Turns out it wasn't enough, they claimed that several of those attacking us were whining about taking too much damage and had called on others to attack us. I think they fingered CSN and Fark specifically at the time but I may be wrong and would have to look it up.

I think you're referring to Chill/TOP's ridiculous deal that you could walk out of karma after two weeks of beating on Rok without consequences, which Fark (probably among others) objected to.

EDIT: Good to know that you thought your DoW's in the past were mostly jokes (real funny curbstomps, huh?) and that you'd gladly do the same again if you had the opportunity (shame the community doesn't let you, isn't it?).

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I have a 3m/50t bet with Ramirus in the result of this war, so I'm rooting for IRON, that said I have to say that while I don't agree with all this unconditional surrender thing I understand Ramirus's point of view and while I support(Not just because the bet) IRON decision in don't accept unconditional surrender in my opinion all this "OMG UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER IS SO OUTRAGEOUS AND IMMORAL" is just drama and part of the IRON's side propaganda. Winners have all right to ask whatever they want and who lose have just two choices: accept the terms and surrender or keep fighting till the death, happily for IRON who is near of die is not them but GRE.

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Well said Shan. I have no idea why you are still leaving White Peace on the table. To have Gramlins last this long at war and not come to their senses would be indication enough for me to remove that offer.

Unconditional Surrender - never acceptable.

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EDIT: Good to know that you thought your DoW's in the past were mostly jokes (real funny curbstomps, huh?) and that you'd gladly do the same again if you had the opportunity (shame the community doesn't let you, isn't it?).

Why don't you people give them a chance instead of running around yelling about past actions?

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EDIT: Good to know that you thought your DoW's in the past were mostly jokes (real funny curbstomps, huh?) and that you'd gladly do the same again if you had the opportunity (shame the community doesn't let you, isn't it?).

I don't think he said that, and you're also ignoring the fact that many of the atrocities you complain about Gremlins did push for (such as the war against Polaris).

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I think you're referring to Chill/TOP's ridiculous deal that you could walk out of karma after two weeks of beating on Rok without consequences, which Fark (probably among others) objected to.

EDIT: Good to know that you thought your DoW's in the past were mostly jokes (real funny curbstomps, huh?) and that you'd gladly do the same again if you had the opportunity (shame the community doesn't let you, isn't it?).

No, that was a separate offer I believe.

Also I'm not sure where exactly you got that second bit out of this as it's wholly inaccurate. In fact towards the end of the article I go on to say that despite believing certain reformed alliances are still detrimental to the cyberverse, I would not treat the same as I did during the UJW, if I were in a position to do so. I merely meant to say that our declaration of war posts were rarely taken seriously. I believe this now to be a bad idea and hope that future declarations of war do not attempt humour at the expense of clearly communicating our reasons for war.

I have a 3m/50t bet with Ramirus in the result of this war, so I'm rooting for IRON, that said I have to say that while I don't agree with all this unconditional surrender thing I understand Ramirus's point of view and while I support(Not just because the bet) IRON decision in don't accept unconditional surrender in my opinion all this "OMG UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER IS SO OUTRAGEOUS AND IMMORAL" is just drama and part of the IRON's side propaganda. Winners have all right to ask whatever they want and who lose have just two choices: accept the terms and surrender or keep fighting till the death, happily for IRON who is near of die is not them but GRE.

Well I agree some people are blowing it a bit out of proportion, I still do not think unconditional surrender is a good precedent to set. Whether or not it's the most heinous act ever is certainly debatable.

I was hoping for a bit less bias but what was I thinking? You are just one of those IRON spin machines.

You spin me right round baby

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I don't think he said that, and you're also ignoring the fact that many of the atrocities you complain about Gremlins did push for (such as the war against Polaris).

Did you notice Arcturus's complaining about WoTC when he was in RoK? Me neither.

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Did you notice Arcturus's complaining about WoTC when he was in RoK? Me neither.

Yes, RoK, the alliance NPO did nothing to yet received a big amount of reps. Funny how most of the alliances to profit off Karma were alliances who long collaborated with and benefited from the NPO's rule. It is no wonder they're backing Gremlins here. They never have been principled.

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Shan's not an IRON spin machine, altho he is leaving out FinsterBaby's rather deplorable actions during Karma.

That's sorta OK because he opposed them. I can't stand IRON in general but Shan is OK.

It is interesting to see that IRON did not consider itself close to Grämlins before Continuum. Certainly IRON had plenty of Citadel connections before those accords were signed.

Kinda funny to see the Citadel the other way around; nearly everyone I knew well in Citadel back then was a Grämlin.

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Shan's not an IRON spin machine, altho he is leaving out FinsterBaby's rather deplorable actions during Karma.

That's sorta OK because he opposed them. I can't stand IRON in general but Shan is OK.

It is interesting to see that IRON did not consider itself close to Grämlins before Continuum. Certainly IRON had plenty of Citadel connections before those accords were signed.

Kinda funny to see the Citadel the other way around; nearly everyone I knew well in Citadel back then was a Grämlin.

I left it out because it's not part of the history of interactions between our two alliances, or at least, not from IRON's point of view (I don't pretend to know the inner thoughts and motivations of other alliances), which is what I am attempting to present in a condensed manner here.

EDIT: Thinking back on this, if they thought we were only returning to save face or something then it is possibly relevant however I'm pretty sure we made it clear to them that this was not the case.

It's not that surprising though, we very much stuck to ourselves and our immediate friends (largely on our own sphere) without some particular reason up until we emerged, and even when we did, before we knew it the UJW occurred and then Continuum formed.

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I think you're referring to Chill/TOP's ridiculous deal that you could walk out of karma after two weeks of beating on Rok without consequences, which Fark (probably among others) objected to.

EDIT: Good to know that you thought your DoW's in the past were mostly jokes (real funny curbstomps, huh?) and that you'd gladly do the same again if you had the opportunity (shame the community doesn't let you, isn't it?).

you keep stretching sometimes don't you? he never said that the curbstomps were funny. he said that IRON's attempts at the written DoW were jokes. there is a difference. we have seen joke style DoWs before for wars.

he also stated that should it be necessary he feels IRON would do a preemptive strike again but not anytime soon. you really need to read what is actually written instead of just trying to twist it around to be what you want it to be.

Did you notice Arcturus's complaining about WoTC when he was in RoK? Me neither.

Come on guys Rok aint bad remember? they never participated in a curbstomp after WoTC.... they never gave terms like vicer.... hey, they are allied to CnG now guys, their past is wiped clean. NPO and the former heg... well we all know ya'll can't escape the past. there was no war that wiped your pasts clean.

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Well I haven't written policy since early January, I do not have a problem with pre-emptive strikes in general, so long as they have sound reasoning behind them. Whether or not they shall be done again in the future I have no idea (that's not my business any more), but I do not think we shall be doing so any time soon (nor do I think we have the capacity to do so anyway).

EDIT: My favourite thing about this blog is watching the Show members by last click page and seeing people looking up all these old announcements.

EDIT2: speaking of old announcements, I believe MHA also privately cleared NV and PUKE of their reparations etc from memory. So kudos to them too.

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I was hoping for a bit less bias but what was I thinking? You are just one of those IRON spin machines.

Perhaps you should try refuting some of those points instead of wildly pointing and accusing him of bias?

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Interesting to see the view from the other side of the fence, though some parts of your post are sheer spin (for example, we were not as responsible for BLEU war/noCB as you imply; your friends in TOP, GGA and Valhalla pushed it more than we did), and you have persisted in the NPO line that we 'used' Continuum. (I personally tried to keep the friendship with IRON going as we went through the process of leaving Continuum and was met with coldness and apathy.)

Regarding Karma, we were stuck between a rock and a hard place, and the deal that was struck (unavoidably pretty much) pissed off people on all sides, including you and TOP in the Orange corner. I don't know who made the call to put more alliances onto you and I can understand that seeming like a betrayal; it was probably SF (RoK were obstructive and ungrateful throughout the whole front).

It is a measure of how far away from sanity Grämlins are when you seem like the voice of reason though :awesome:

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Interesting to see the view from the other side of the fence, though some parts of your post are sheer spin (for example, we were not as responsible for BLEU war/noCB as you imply; your friends in TOP, GGA and Valhalla pushed it more than we did), and you have persisted in the NPO line that we 'used' Continuum. (I personally tried to keep the friendship with IRON going as we went through the process of leaving Continuum and was met with coldness and apathy.)

Regarding Karma, we were stuck between a rock and a hard place, and the deal that was struck (unavoidably pretty much) pissed off people on all sides, including you and TOP in the Orange corner. I don't know who made the call to put more alliances onto you and I can understand that seeming like a betrayal; it was probably SF (RoK were obstructive and ungrateful throughout the whole front).

It is a measure of how far away from sanity Grämlins are when you seem like the voice of reason though :awesome:

I would agree that Gramlins in general wasn't the biggest proponent of the war, however I think you underestimate how eager for blood you all appeared, you in particular. It wasn't just an NPO line, but it was how some of us actually felt about the event and to an extent, still do. Finally, yes you did try and keep some good relations, and that's why we still had a ToA to cancel by the end of it all, or didn't outright ignore you when it came up. I recognise you were stuck in a hard place but I'm still disappointed with how things all played out.

You might be right about RoK though. I probably should actually look that up but I really don't feel like sifting through all my logs :(

And at least we can agree on the last one.

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Disappointment on your side regarding Karma is quite justified, though I feel that some on your side don't really try to understand the position that we were in.

RoK should have been grateful for the fact that their top tier wasn't being utterly rolled by IRON which they would have been if it were not for us and the dirty deals struck with IRON.

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I have noticed that every time I post on this I get responses making wildly inaccurate assumptions about me. Just to save y'all from further embarassment, I am not a member of the Grämlins, I am not a member of an alliance even indirectly tied to them in any way. I am in fact a *former* member of the Grämlins, I was a member for over a year, including much of the time you are talking about here. I resigned the day Ramirus was promoted to Archon, nearly 300 days in the past now, and have had basically no contact with them since. My viewpoint is probably as close to a neutral one as is possible for anyone with first hand knowledge of the history to have. My strong attachment is to truth, and my violent antipathy is reserved for exemplars of duplicity, dishonesty, and dishonour. Your post positively reeks of self-serving inaccuracies.

They were one of the greatest proponents for war against Polaris, who at the time despite a lot of fallout we still considered friends and were trying to protect. When they (and the others) eventually got their way, we reluctantly had to assist in the war, as per our treaties.

This is not true. Your buddies at TOP pushed this war. Not that GRE felt much need to oppose it after ES made repeated public threats against us, but it is quite inaccurate to portray us as being the primary force behind this. There was strong sentiment in GRE that we should pull back and give Polaris another chance once ES was deposed, in fact, and it was our Orange allies who insisted it must go forward nonetheless. Afterwards, we argued against reps, and took heavy flack from Orange for our stance there as well.

In the context of the war itself, we were shocked and outraged by opportunistic 'pre-emptive' attacks on small polar allies which were launched from within Q coïncidentally with our attacks. Our planned actions were posted to Q, as required by treaty, and these others apparently jumped on the bandwagon at the last moment, without invitation, without notice, and dishonourably, and smeared us by association. This gave strong impetus to the movement to withdraw from Q.

But yeah, we were the bad guys and we strong-armed y'all to go along, then withdrew from the noble Q continuum once it had served our foul purposes. Stick with that story.

Regarding karma - you waived the cancellation clause specifically to ensure you would be facing us in battle because that was supposed to ensure you got out easy. We in fact delivered by arranging for you to be given white peace very early in the war, an offer which you threw back in our faces. You chose to continue the war and continue to damage our nations and those of our allies for a long time afterwards, and we still helped you secure very light terms when you got tired of fighting.

But yeah, once again, we were the bad guys, naughty evil Grämlins. Y'all are pure as driven snow, the physical manifestation of all that is good and pure on CN. You have never done anything wrong, ever, and never will. Not even memory of the Woodstock Massacre can inspire anything but self-righteous boasting from IRON. You have taken the low road at every opportunity for years, benefitted from immoral actions at every opportunity, never take responsibility when it goes wrong, and when someone finally refuses to give you the peace you want when you get tired of fighting you suddenly discover morality.

I am no fan of Ramirus, if I recall correctly my last official act as a Grämlin was to tell him to 'go die in a fire.' I am sure he could have handled this better than he did. But he is not the Grämlins, just one particularly undiplomatic Triumvir. The alliance as a whole, not just he, has decided that IRON needs to (for the first time in history) show a little humility and at least make a decent attempt to fake having a sense of shame before they give you peace, and I can easily understand why they would feel that way.

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Just gonna point out that CSN never fought IRON in the Karma War. We were however going to be the first counter against you if you had attacked when we expected you to (the Wednesday).

Instead we all woke up at 1am to counter a blitz that didn't happen. :(

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I cannot recall whether we set the precedent of paying for our tech reps in that Polar war or not but I definitely recall GRE working to keep Polar's reps low at the time, and IRON's reps low after Karma.

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