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You're Just As Bad As That Other Guy Who Is Also Bad....


Ashoka the Great

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Here's how the game is played:

- Alliance X makes a mistake of some kind.

- Someone from Alliance Y calls them on it.

- The second individual is reminded of when they did something, possibly by someone unrelated to Alliance X.

- The above individual is castigated over something else.

- Eventually, you have a loop of people all pointing and calling each other names.

- Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Always repeat.

This would seem to be one of the favorite games these days. So prevalent has it become that I found myself typing a variation of it earlier today. At Bob Janova, of all people.

(Sorry, Bob.)

Well, no more.

It's time for a reality check, folks.

All of us who have been here a while and who have served in government(s) have made mistakes along the way. At times they may have only affected ourselves or our own alliances. But there have also been times when some of our more spectacular screw-ups have affected hundreds, even thousands, of nations.

All of us have screwed up. (And if someone's going to jump in and say "Hey I haven't" then I can only say you haven't been trying hard enough.)

Our errors inform our future actions. Well, they're supposed to at any rate. When they don't, there's always someone there to remind us of this. (CNers are very good at this sort of 'reminding'.)

But y'know, it would be nice if our errors informed our comments as well, making said comments more pertinent, more cogent, more....anything other than bitter and childish. And hey, we might just learn that the guy who did a bad thing two years ago isn't really so bad after all.

Is it so hard to focus on the matter at hand, whatever it may be? I'm not just asking that question of others, but of myself as well. Do those of us with a lot of history simply have too much baggage that we refuse to let go of?

Two monks on a pilgrimage came to the ford of a river. There they saw a girl dressed in all her finery, not knowing what to do since the river was high and she did not want to spoil her clothes. One of the monks took her on his back, carried her across and put her down on dry ground on the other side. Then the monks continued on their way.

However, the other monk, after an hour or so, started complaining, “Surely it is not right to touch a woman; it is against the commandments to have close contact with women. How could you go against the rules for monks?”

The monk who had carried the girl said, "I set her down by the river an hour ago, why are you still carrying her?"

When I find myself acting like the second monk, I feel stupid.

So enough with the ancient history. If it isn't truly relevant, then save it for that book about CN you've always wanted to write. (*cough* loser *cough*)

Don't go on and on about a "pattern of behavior." Save that for the DoW, if you've got the stones.

Finally, there is one point that needs to be made with regard to anyone who claims the moral high ground. I've said this before, but it may bear repeating:

We are all monsters. If we are not monsters, we are friends with monsters. And if we are not friends with monsters, we are food for monsters.

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We are all monsters. If we are not monsters, we are friends with monsters. And if we are not friends with monsters, we are food for monsters.

This part sums it all up nicely for me.

Also: Hello zog. How have you been? I have been pretty damn awesome, myself.

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Claiming the "moral high ground" comes with a short and long term benefit in the war for the perceptions of the masses. Bringing up "ancient history" is nothing more than a part of that - people cannot afford to stop these kind of comments, because doing so would leave the field wide open for malleable opinions to be influenced by interests contrary to theirs.

Also, don't be mean to people who write books about CN :(

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I cannot disagree. It leads to quite the show when people run from false cause to false cause crying from the rafters how they're fighting for some higher purpose.

You're either fighting because your friends are fighting (95% of all wars), because there has been an act done to you that you feel deserves a war response, or because you're out to secure power. Or because you got flat attacked by someone is doing one of the above. You have no higher cause.

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I cannot disagree. It leads to quite the show when people run from false cause to false cause crying from the rafters how they're fighting for some higher purpose.

You're either fighting because your friends are fighting (95% of all wars), because there has been an act done to you that you feel deserves a war response, or because you're out to secure power. Or because you got flat attacked by someone is doing one of the above. You have no higher cause.

or because you are tired of bigwoody being sexier than you.

pew pew

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Don't go on and on about a "pattern of behavior." Save that for the DoW, if you've got the stones.

This rubbish argument keeps being made. That idea that you cant question somebody or point out all the bad stuff they do unless you declare war on them. It was rubbish in the past and its rubbish today. Lets imagine for a minute that an alliance has the stones. They get some friends, attack pre-emptively and lose. Then the other side demands reps that exceed any reps ever handed down before. That is why people dont attack pre-emptively as you are asking them to do now. Your point that people should put up or shut up is exactly the same kind of thing that people would have told you and your friends when you were an outcast. Its the kind of thing that people who lord over you say knowing well that any action like this will lead an alliance to destruction and enslavement. People who keep saying things like this are oblivious to the hypocrisy of what they are saying. If they dont like people pointing out all the bad stuff they are doing they should follow their own rule and not "go on and on about a "pattern of behaviour." Save that for the DoW, if you've got the stones".

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Put up or shut up is something that is generally said by people who know they aren't going to lose, because they are backed up by allies.

I agree to a point with zog that no one is perfect, no not even me, and we all make mistakes. However, to take the next step and say that no one can call out a mistake in the process of being made is something that will prevent progress.

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Hello zog. How have you been? I have been pretty damn awesome, myself.

That's good to hear.

Me? Things are a-OK. No great excitement, which is fine with me. The missus wants yet another kid, I just filed my taxes (decent refund) and the weather has been fantastic....well, 'fantastic' for March in this neck of the woods. (No snow on the ground, and there hasn't been for a few weeks now.)

I have a book idea that I'm trying to flesh out. The basic premise is sound, but I'm having organizational 'issues'. Not having written for publication in 3-1/2 years and not having written anything longer than a few thousand words in perhaps a decade doesn't help.

Also, I enjoy procrastination.

You have no higher cause.

It happens, but it's exceedingly rare. (cf. Doitzel/Vox) I rather doubt we'll see anything like that again, though.

I agree to a point with zog that no one is perfect, no not even me, and we all make mistakes. However, to take the next step and say that no one can call out a mistake in the process of being made is something that will prevent progress.

I may not have been as clear as I wanted to be.

'Calling someone out' on their actions is fine. But if you look at the typical AP thread (well, the contentious ones at any rate) you can't help but notice how horribly sidetracked every discussion becomes.

To give a RL example, Iran is generally considered something of a pariah state. Now imagine if, every time they did something controversial, those criticizing them began with, "Since the time of Xerxes, we have noticed a pattern of behavior...." If Xerxes were still running the show -- and who wouldn't enjoy seeing an undead despotic ruler presiding over a near-nuclear power? -- that argument might have a point.

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File my taxes too. You have experience filing from out of country. My tax attorney is confused.

Filing from Korea could have been a nightmare, since during my time there (the 1997-98 east Asian economic meltdown) the Won lost about 60% of its value relative to the Canadian dollar, while 'at home' expenses like child support for my three older kids remained unchanged.

I contacted Revenue Canada (the old name for our version of the IRS), explained the situation to them in great detail, and received the following advice: "Oh, just don't bother claiming that income." I guess they didn't want to do the work, either.

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Filing from Korea could have been a nightmare, since during my time there (the 1997-98 east Asian economic meltdown) the Won lost about 60% of its value relative to the Canadian dollar, while 'at home' expenses like child support for my three older kids remained unchanged.

I contacted Revenue Canada (the old name for our version of the IRS), explained the situation to them in great detail, and received the following advice: "Oh, just don't bother claiming that income." I guess they didn't want to do the work, either.

What a country we live in.

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It happens, but it's exceedingly rare. (cf. Doitzel/Vox) I rather doubt we'll see anything like that again, though.

In my personal opinion, that fell into the "secure power" category. I've seen many a Vox member backtrack on a lot of what they claimed to stand for once they got power.

I'm not really sure if I can think of anyone who has handled power well.

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Its the kind of thing that people who lord over you say knowing well that any action like this will lead an alliance to destruction and enslavement.

It's a month worth of reps, Alterego. Less than that if they really work at it.

I'm not really sure if I can think of anyone who has handled power well.

I'd say comparably we've handled it pretty damn well. No offensive attacks followed by ridiculous reps, no forced disbandments, no EZIs. Indeed, if I were to compare a year of our rule to a year of yours... well... I have a feeling nobody would ever take your side's complaints seriously anymore.

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Geez, several times this week I've liked something you've said. Could this be the start of a trend?

You are right, we've all made mistakes while in .gov and anyone who says otherwise is lying. Its how we handle those mistakes, analyze the issues from the past, and resolve not to make similar mistakes in the future.

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Saying that not one person, alliance, or bloc is perfect is absolutely right.

We all goof up somewhere along the line. I mean, I couldn't count the number of times I've screwed something up on just one hand. :lol1: I'd need both hands and probably both feet as well.

Excellent points made, Zog. :)

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It's a month worth of reps, Alterego. Less than that if they really work at it.

Thats assuming they dont pull what they pulled on NPO. It was claimed they could pay of their reps in no time, unfortunately there were special conditions that ensured that they were still stuck in limbo a year later.

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It's a month worth of reps, Alterego. Less than that if they really work at it.

I'd say comparably we've handled it pretty damn well. No offensive attacks followed by ridiculous reps, no forced disbandments, no EZIs. Indeed, if I were to compare a year of our rule to a year of yours... well... I have a feeling nobody would ever take your side's complaints seriously anymore.

I considered you. My opinion stands. You can feel free to hold your own opinion. The fact that you need to resort to comparisons, especially when you haven't seen a world ruled by me (and likely never will), further strengthens my belief.

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Thats assuming they dont pull what they pulled on NPO. It was claimed they could pay of their reps in no time, unfortunately there were special conditions that ensured that they were still stuck in limbo a year later.

Please. Either its already mid-July in your world or you didn't see the part in the NPO terms that states "To facilitate the speedy payment of reparations, a minimum of 1/12 of the total reparations assessed must be disbursed each month" - pretty sure being expected to pay off 1/12th per month means a year of terms, at a maximum. Unless, of course, years are different in Alterego land.

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