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What Makes the World Go 'Round?: Grudges and Digiterran Politics Part I

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Coursca

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Wightonian Data Agency Survey #1  

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Who here has a grudge? Come on, be honest. You know you have at least one you've developed in this game at some point. Even a minor one, something you've stuffed in the deep recesses of your subconscious never to see the light of day.

Or not.

I know I have grudges and I know a lot of other people who do as well. However, something I realized (not just acknowledged or accepted as the norm, but realized) the other day in a discussion with a few friends of mine is not only the prevalence of, but the unending cycle of, grudges in this game. As long as I can remember, my involvement with Digiterran politics has involved my trying to untangle who has a grudge with who or why X and Y alliance refuse to play nicely together.

One friend of mine framed it particularly well: an endless cycle of revanchism, one which constantly renews the planet and motivates a new generation of political intrigue and, eventually, conflict. I agree with his assessment, but I am interested to see how everybody else sees it.

So, I am interested in hearing from you. What do you think of this statement? Do you hold a grudge? Has it influenced your decision-making?

Keep it civil -- this is not a place to pursue a grudge, just to elucidate upon the prevalence of them.

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Ive never held a grudge or said a bad word about a person/alliance.

Then...vote that way?

Though, I think your Karma for Sparta thread counts you in the "yes" column. :P

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Revanchism is the defining force in CN politics, and has been for some time now. This is our creation, our lifestyle, and our world.

I will admit, I'm not very much a holder of grudges, and I would be willing to bet that a lot of CN players don't hold grudges against every single member of a certain group, but their alliance is as a whole following or planning a revanchist policy against someone. It is incredibly naive to attempt to function in the CN of today without factoring in revanchism, be it your own or someone else's.

Payback is king.

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Revanchism is the defining force in CN politics, and has been for some time now. This is our creation, our lifestyle, and our world.

I will admit, I'm not very much a holder of grudges, and I would be willing to bet that a lot of CN players don't hold grudges against every single member of a certain group, but their alliance is as a whole following or planning a revanchist policy against someone. It is incredibly naive to attempt to function in the CN of today without factoring in revanchism, be it your own or someone else's.

Payback is king.

Very well stated.

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Of course I hold a grudge. Of course it influences me. It is the extent to which I pursue said grudge which is determining. I view there as being two separate levels, one being holding a grudge and being unwilling to get involved with that alliance, and then actively seeking the destruction of an alliance through isolation.

I'm a firm believer in the first, and the second is not as tolerable. However, when sides start to form and divisive splits between former allies due to their positioning with more friends on another side (see FOK/TOP), you end up with the first level I stated being confused with the second.

I've seen the active destruction/isolation of an alliance pursued, and in the majority of cases it has been offensive to me. I would not wish that upon my worst enemy. However, when said enemy puts themselves in an extremely weak position, such as NPO did by attacking OV, I have no reservations in taking advantage of said position and destroying said alliance.

I hope that's relatively clear, wrote it pretty quickly and don't have much time to check it D:

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I do hold grudges, although it's something I try to avoid, and if I do hold a grudge I try to get rid of it as soon as possible :P To my shame, some people do make it harder than others.

I did once let bad sentiment cloud my judgement (in the Menotah Incident) but that wasn't on account of a grudge per se, at least not on my part.

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Of course I hold a grudge. Of course it influences me. It is the extent to which I pursue said grudge which is determining. I view there as being two separate levels, one being holding a grudge and being unwilling to get involved with that alliance, and then actively seeking the destruction of an alliance through isolation.

I'm a firm believer in the first, and the second is not as tolerable. However, when sides start to form and divisive splits between former allies due to their positioning with more friends on another side (see FOK/TOP), you end up with the first level I stated being confused with the second.

I've seen the active destruction/isolation of an alliance pursued, and in the majority of cases it has been offensive to me. I would not wish that upon my worst enemy. However, when said enemy puts themselves in an extremely weak position, such as NPO did by attacking OV, I have no reservations in taking advantage of said position and destroying said alliance.

I hope that's relatively clear, wrote it pretty quickly and don't have much time to check it D:

Interesting perspective, one which calls into question whether we're asking the right question from the start. Perhaps the question isn't so much "are there grudges in the world?", but rather "how does the grudge affect politics?" The survey touches upon it only briefly, though the responses to the question of objectivity are, so far, quite interesting.

Would you say that the pursuit of realpolitik goals is equivalent to the pursuit of a grudge? Diplomatic isolation is, after all, ultimately a calculation and decision made through realpolitik thought. Unfortunately, Pacifica held this as the keystone of their repertoire of tools rather than as a tool of last resort. It was wielded as easily as was a fork at a meal.

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I do hold grudges, although it's something I try to avoid, and if I do hold a grudge I try to get rid of it as soon as possible :P To my shame, some people do make it harder than others.

I did once let bad sentiment cloud my judgement (in the Menotah Incident) but that wasn't on account of a grudge per se, at least not on my part.

Good point, and one that might affect my terminology from here on out.

Perhaps grudge is too specific? Or the inverse: too broad?

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Revenge is one of the strongest human motivations. There's a reason it's such an attractive goal.

Yes, agreed. That is one of my core assumptions in my hypothesis.

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Interesting perspective, one which calls into question whether we're asking the right question from the start. Perhaps the question isn't so much "are there grudges in the world?", but rather "how does the grudge affect politics?" The survey touches upon it only briefly, though the responses to the question of objectivity are, so far, quite interesting.

I'd have to say this is a more valid assessment. As has been stated, it is a part of human nature to hold grudges against those who have "wronged" (differing views exist on what exactly is a "wrong" you.

Would you say that the pursuit of realpolitik goals is equivalent to the pursuit of a grudge? Diplomatic isolation is, after all, ultimately a calculation and decision made through realpolitik thought. Unfortunately, Pacifica held this as the keystone of their repertoire of tools rather than as a tool of last resort. It was wielded as easily as was a fork at a meal.

It is an interesting way to put it, and to some extent I can agree with what you stated. I think that the pursuit of a grudge can on more occasions then one cross with realpolitik, or realpolitik can be used to advance a grudge. I view the realpolitik as a means to an end, with the grudge being the driving factor behind it, in most cases. However, as you have stated Pacifica held this as their entire policy, not just an aspect of it. Realpolitik was what they did, and not always over grudges, just in pursuit of power. That is where mistakes can be made, as I think people understand grudges as a valid reasoning for realpolitik to occur, at least in some cases. However, people don't view the advance of an individual alliance through realpolitik as favorably from my point of view, as that is one of the reasons NPO fell.

I don't think I'm really driving at a point here, but instead just stating the variety of ways in which grudges and realpolitik can interact within the Cyberverse.

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Good point, and one that might affect my terminology from here on out.

Perhaps grudge is too specific? Or the inverse: too broad?

Too specific, if it is either of those two. You can get a bad vibe from someone you don't hate on. You could be frustrated with someone you like, not trust someone, or something like that - that doesn't necessarily you harbour a grudge against them per se. A grudge is really when you don't like someone and you want bad things to happen to them in various degrees. The ultimate grudge would wish to see a person delete and never come back, or an alliance or bloc to disband. Ultimate grudges cause draconian reps.

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Unfortunatly, the results to the poll seem to not be very surprising.

I voted "no" to having any grudges, and part (most) of that is due to the fact that I just came back from a year long break.

Having said that, I've had them in the past (very strongly), and I'd like to think I'm more "forgiving and forgetting" than most.

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I'd have to say this is a more valid assessment. As has been stated, it is a part of human nature to hold grudges against those who have "wronged" (differing views exist on what exactly is a "wrong" you.

Indeed.

It is an interesting way to put it, and to some extent I can agree with what you stated. I think that the pursuit of a grudge can on more occasions then one cross with realpolitik, or realpolitik can be used to advance a grudge. I view the realpolitik as a means to an end, with the grudge being the driving factor behind it, in most cases. However, as you have stated Pacifica held this as their entire policy, not just an aspect of it. Realpolitik was what they did, and not always over grudges, just in pursuit of power. That is where mistakes can be made, as I think people understand grudges as a valid reasoning for realpolitik to occur, at least in some cases. However, people don't view the advance of an individual alliance through realpolitik as favorably from my point of view, as that is one of the reasons NPO fell.

I don't think I'm really driving at a point here, but instead just stating the variety of ways in which grudges and realpolitik can interact within the Cyberverse.

I may have inadvertently gathered a point. I think Pacifica is a lesson in not letting your grudges factor (too much) into your political calculations. I think it significantly skews your world view to the point of making incorrect realpolitik calculations (not right/wrong or good/evil, but incorrect), ones which have (self)destructive consequences. In other words, grudges if allowed to manifest themselves too deeply into a political culture can cause poor policy decisions.

There's a saying I have: "There is no 'u' in good policy."

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Too specific, if it is either of those two. You can get a bad vibe from someone you don't hate on. You could be frustrated with someone you like, not trust someone, or something like that - that doesn't necessarily you harbour a grudge against them per se. A grudge is really when you don't like someone and you want bad things to happen to them in various degrees. The ultimate grudge would wish to see a person delete and never come back, or an alliance or bloc to disband. Ultimate grudges cause draconian reps.

Good points. If you had to suggest an alternative term, then, what would it be?

What about revanchism?

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I like to believe all my enemies are self-appointed.

I've been leaning toward this thought lately. I am slowly letting go of my old grudges, though there will probably always be some latent negative view of something or somebody.

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I have no alliance-wide grudges. I do have a couple of beefs with individual players, but none of said players are around anymore or, if they are, they're well-hidden. Even then, I can't work up the energy to get all that upset about the past.

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