A Dark Templar Announcement

[the dakotans]

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1297648132' post='2631817']

And just an FYI about our membership: They support everything Liz said to you in those talks. [/quote]

So it's not just the gov? That's a shame.

[TheEraser]

Grind em to dust DT

[R3nowned]

I'm surprised. Seriously? Those weren't negotiations. Those were just demands with a gun pointed at DT's head.

40k might be a bit much, but I won't flinch if DT was made to pay it.

[Mergerberger II]

So the Commonwealth of Sovereign Nations has serious problems when alliances join a war for someone who is merely at the level of an Optional Defense Pact? This is something that is repeated throughout the logs given, and seems to be the main arguing point for CSN's demand of reparations.

So then will it come as a surprise to CSN when they find out that their treaty with Legacy was also optional?

[Penkala]

Also I found this to be pretty cute: [17:28] <@TiTaN[DT]> We, at DT, feel like this war has gone on for too long. While we at DT are coordinated, LoSS has 0 coordination. We are looking to get peace

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1297648225' post='2631824']
Are you alleging that these logs are fabricated? If so, dazzle us. Show us the "correct" facts.
[/quote]

Oh, no, they're real. I'm just pointing out you telling the story wrong. You said you came to us with LoSS to get peace with LoSS. That's a lie. You came to us alone to get peace alone. Nice try though.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1297647910' post='2631807']
I love the nit-picking that you do. If they didn't summarize you would try to spin. Since you can't spin and all things are visible, you decide to nit-pick. I can do it too, see:
[/quote]

Dude the whole wall of text is spin, read the log dumps with out the self righteous commentary from the OP and you get an alliance that flip flops on if it likes the terms or not and goes from offering 40k to demanding an apology and white peace. Craziness.

[quote name='pd73bassman' timestamp='1297647983' post='2631809']
You must have forgot about the part where CSN came in on a optional treaty with Legacy, so don't play the optional card.
[/quote]

I think you missed the point where DT lost, Winning covers a multitude of sins. You come in on an option and win and your golden, you come in on an optional and lose as the winners are going to ask "Why did you come in and shoot at us when you didn't have to?". And follow it up with "this war is not an excuse for you to get free beats on us, here's your bill"

[quote name='Lord Levistus' timestamp='1297648047' post='2631813']
So as a minister of VE, are you saying VE's stance is that the 40k reps from only 2000+ tech nations is appropriate?
[/quote]

Well first off, I'm a Minister of Awesome, which is our [i]retired[/i] Gov mask, so my position is just that, only mine. Second I never said anything at all about the value, but since DT was preparing to take 40k at one point just not from their 2k+ clearly 40k wasn't too high or they'd never have thought about it.

Nice try putting words in my mouth and that of my alliance though, it was more subtle that most of what appears here is.

[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1297648122' post='2631816']
What? They continuously went to CSN and said they would only accept white peace. CSN, even though they apparently fought for the unjustice of the Hegemony in Karma, said they would only accept peace if they got 40,000 tech. Why the hell should DT pay 40,000 tech?
[/quote]

You don't get addressed directly in the quote package because your attempt at counter point is just that horrible, go read the OP before you start making claims about what was or was not said in it.

[Ardus]

DT--your involvement in the conflict was nothing but counter-productive to your allies, who already had a free ticket out. Entering on an optional pact on this front was a blunder that you should have expected to pay for. I don't particularly like you. Nonetheless, an incredibly effective post of appreciable skill.

CSN--this is not a war of reparation, but annihilation. If the complete destruction of the Dark Templar is what you seek, then pursue it with confidence and draw the noose. Don't try to drag things out or play coy about it.

[Mogar]

[quote name='pd73bassman' timestamp='1297647983' post='2631809']
You must have forgot about the part where CSN came in on a optional treaty with Legacy, so don't play the optional card.
[/quote]
CSN using optional treaties = acceptable
DT using optional treaties = unacceptable

[D34th]

I really can't see why DT should pay reparations for being attacked by CSN after entering the war just to help an ally.

Also Xiphosis

[The MVP]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1297648609' post='2631847']
[b]CSN[/b]--this is not a war of reparation, but annihilation. If the complete destruction of the Dark Templar is what you seek, then pursue it with confidence and draw the noose. Don't try to drag things out or play coy about it.
[/quote]

*GOD.

Some of you just aren't following along.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1297648612' post='2631848']
CSN using optional treaties = acceptable
DT using optional treaties = unacceptable
[/quote]

The vast majority of CSN's treaties mandated they participate in this coalition.

The majority of your treaties also mandated that you participate on this side of the coalition.

Instead, you ignored your treaties and looked for the easiest chain in against this side that you could find. And now you're paying for it.

[dejarue]

[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1297648122' post='2631816']
What? They continuously went to CSN and said they would only accept white peace. CSN, even though they apparently fought for the unjustice of the Hegemony in Karma, said they would only accept peace if they got 40,000 tech. Why the hell should DT pay 40,000 tech?
[/quote]
This isn't really true, but you would have to read something other than DT's propaganda to know it. With DT's "negotiating" skills, it started to become true, though.

[quote name='General Ozujsko' timestamp='1297646942' post='2631776']
1) We made CSN a counter-offer. They walked away from talks and gave no indication that they would be considering it. This is fully documented in the logs. DT naturally assumed they were turning it down and removed the counter-offer from the table. Largely because of Point #2.

2) CSN's chances of receiving 40k diminish day by day. Everyday, DT's resolve grows stronger and our allies, friends, non-allies, etc continue to support us in our resistance to these terms, which are as unjust as they are unjustifiable. CSN's general membership are realizing that these terms are antithetical to their values as an alliance and they deserve praise for that.

Listen, it's a really basic thought. CSN won't be getting that tech. It's just not going to happen. Simultaneously, they will never offer white peace no matter how many CSN govt get ZI'd or how much NS they lose to a smaller alliance. CSN govt has demonstrated, beyond any doubt, that they have no problem throwing their general membership in the fire. Their egos will simply not allow them to realize their failure.

DT offered white peace because we are the only ones that can bring it up. CSN govt has refused this option...stupidly so, I might add.

As such, CSN continues to represent an existential threat to DT. I've said it before - CSN's general membership knows how to make this stop. Depose of this trash you call government and seize leadership. Your government has failed you.
[/quote]
There are so many awful twists and turns in this little novel that it's easy to get lost in it. Even if I didn't know what was going on, this would read like a bad propaganda piece. You're not going to turn the CSN membership against its leadership, even if we did feel aggrieved. But you know that, and this little stunt, as you probably know, will only serve to strengthen CSN support of its government in putting your feet to the fire.

We don't care about the tech. The membership, nor the government. But your stunt of "well we removed the counter-offer" is a naked way of covering for reneging on what would have brought you immediate peace, and you only did it for publicity reasons. And for that, your alliance will continue to burn.

We've got time.

[Banksy]

Not too sure what you mean to achieve here tbh.

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297648536' post='2631841']
Also I found this to be pretty cute: [17:28] <@TiTaN[DT]> We, at DT, feel like this war has gone on for too long. While we at DT are coordinated, LoSS has 0 coordination. We are looking to get peace
[/quote]
So Titan gave an opinion how he felt the war was going, then he mentioned that we would like peace. Note: not surrender.

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1297648565' post='2631842']
Oh, no, they're real. I'm just pointing out you telling the story wrong. You said you came to us with LoSS to get peace with LoSS. That's a lie. You came to us alone to get peace alone. Nice try though.
[/quote]
Ah. It seems that you have found a minor inaccuracy about the members of the channel in which those discussions took place. That is because the person who wrote this was not in that channel and the logs do not contain the channel list. It is an honest mistake, as it was assumed that LoSS was in that channel.
Does that change what was said? No. Does that change the validity of the post? No.

So, uh. Any other ways that you can find that we are "telling the story wrong"?

[DogeWilliam]

CSN has the right to ask for reps, even if it goes against the norm of this war in which most so far have gotten white peace. And rebel virginia, stop the propaganda. This is one front out of a multitude of fronts. The norm so far has been white peace. So your words about how 'evil' the winning side has been is hilarious.

[Finnish Commie]

If DT is just spinning and twisting words here would CSN be so kind and give us an accurate view of the events? If not it seems that you have done goofed.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1297648132' post='2631817']
Trust me, a lot of this crap you do on the OWF and peace talks is quickly changing anyone's mind.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Oh, this is disappointing, especially from you Gib. I used to think highly of you, believe me or not.

How little have any of you learned? Is speaking out publicly against injustice and sadistic abuse of power a crime? Is not sitting on your hands, quietly muttering in corners, while harm is done to others to be the norm? The NPO created that rule, and it appears to now be played just as well by its successors.

When MK extorted NSO, I spoke out. I revealed the injustice. Yet by some parties, those in power, I was condemned for being an "attention whore" and for the ungentlemanly act of exposing evil. Others have done it as well, and they suffered same slurs slung at them. DT does it now, and they are criticized by the powers for bringing to light what should never be kept in the dark.

There is naught more noble or honorable than boldly shouting and fighting for good. It is not a tactic that should be shunned or shamed. No, it takes great character and commitment to do so, for it always carries the risk for further retribution. I and many others, Doitzel, Sponge, et. al., all were given more than just PZI for condemning in public the heinous acts of the hegemony. It became quite personal, on their end.

How many crimes go unreported to the public because of fear to reveal? NPO and Valhalla and their friends extorted countless, and got away with it for as long as they did in part because people were intimidated into silence. It can happen again. Do not give into the intimidation and threats of violence or coercion. Do not be scared. It is your silence, more than anything else, that empowers the current tyrants.[/color]

[Axolotlia]

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1297648565' post='2631842']
Oh, no, they're real. I'm just pointing out you telling the story wrong. You said you came to us with LoSS to get peace with LoSS. That's a lie. You came to us alone to get peace alone. Nice try though.
[/quote]

That in no way excuses CSN's actions and demands. Nice try though

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297648775' post='2631854']

The majority of your treaties also mandated that you participate on this side of the coalition.

[/quote]

Really now? Do they not teach counting in your nation?

[Penkala]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1297648887' post='2631864']
[color="#0000FF"]Oh, this is disappointing, especially from you Gib. I used to think highly of you, believe me or not.

How little have any of you learned? Is speaking out publicly against injustice and sadistic abuse of power a crime? Is not sitting on your hands, quietly muttering in corners, while harm is done to others to be the norm? The NPO created that rule, and it appears to now be played just as well by its successors.

When MK extorted NSO, I spoke out. I revealed the injustice. Yet by some parties, those in power, I was condemned for being an "attention whore" and for the ungentlemanly act of exposing evil. Others have done it as well, and they suffered same slurs slung at them. DT does it now, and they are criticized by the powers for bringing to light what should never be kept in the dark.

There is naught more noble or honorable than boldly shouting and fighting for good. It is not a tactic that should be shunned or shamed. No, it takes great character and commitment to do so, for it always carries the risk for further retribution. I and many others, Doitzel, Sponge, et. al., all were given more than just PZI for condemning in public the heinous acts of the hegemony. It became quite personal, on their end.

How many crimes go unreported to the public because of fear to reveal? NPO and Valhalla and their friends extorted countless, and got away with it for as long as they did in part because people were intimidated into silence. It can happen again. Do not give into the intimidation and threats of violence or coercion. Do not be scared. It is your silence, more than anything else, that empowers the current tyrants.[/color]
[/quote]

No worries, Reb. I have carefully vetted both sides of this war and can assure you that CSN is being perfectly reasonable here.

[quote]Really now? Do they not teach counting in your nation? [/quote]

I count two MDP+ vs. two MDP+ (NoR, NoV vs. GR, Brig.) And I count 4 NOIR alliances vs. 2. The four are on our side.

The total count, then, is six alliances on our side of the war, versus four on the other side of the war.

Somehow that meant that DT should be on the other side of the war. Not sure the logic of it. (Well, actually, I am. We have a chance to take a potshot at a group of alliances that we don't like, so we're going to do it.)

[quote]If DT is just spinning and twisting words here would CSN be so kind and give us an accurate view of the events? If not it seems that you have done goofed. [/quote]

Much of it can't be put on the OWF.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Penkala

[wickedj]

Pretty shameful...

[General Ozujsko]

[quote name='dejarue' timestamp='1297648788' post='2631857']
This isn't really true, but you would have to read something other than DT's propaganda to know it. With DT's "negotiating" skills, it started to become true, though.


There are so many awful twists and turns in this little novel that it's easy to get lost in it. Even if I didn't know what was going on, this would read like a bad propaganda piece. You're not going to turn the CSN membership against its leadership, even if we did feel aggrieved. But you know that, and this little stunt, as you probably know, will only serve to strengthen CSN support of its government in putting your feet to the fire.

We don't care about the tech. The membership, nor the government. But your stunt of "well we removed the counter-offer" is a naked way of covering for reneging on what would have brought you immediate peace, and you only did it for publicity reasons. And for that, your alliance will continue to burn.

We've got time.
[/quote]

Really? I've checked CSN's stats - you're dropping NS and members pretty steadily. And from what I've seen, your WC's are weak-sauce. Face it, CSN isn't able to back up their threats.

I've said it before - we need not conquer CSN. But we must resist being conquered. And we are.

[Lord Levistus]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297649010' post='2631868']
No worries, Reb. I have carefully vetted both sides of this war and can assure you that CSN is being perfectly reasonable here.
[/quote]

Are you even trying to be serious, or are you just openly spouting crap now?

[Amossio]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1297648612' post='2631848']
CSN using optional treaties = acceptable
DT using optional treaties = unacceptable
[/quote]

It's more like CSN using no treaties=acceptable

they hit LoSS via no treaty, on a useless cb of logs saying we're better than SF, which of course are fabricated, then gives the old "oh it's coalition war, we can do that" yet they cried when DT actually used a treaty to enter the war, the same treaty in which the likes of umbrella used in karma to defend LoSS in the way of dragging TOP in to hit BAPS.