Wonders Question

[President Pearson]

Great Temple: $35,000,000. Increases citizen happiness +5 and your citizens will always be happy with your religion choice.
So since a religion bonus gives you +1 happiness when they are happy with it, does it give you +5 happiness AND +1 for them being happy? Same with the great monument, do you get an extra happiness point for them being happy with your government?

[Harry Dresden]

As I understand it, it's not really a +1 bonus as much as it's a lack of a -1 penalty. Unless you have the one religion that your people want, you have a -1 penalty.

Buying the wonder gives you a +5 bonus and you don't risk the -1 penalty.

[Locke]

[quote name='Harry Dresden' timestamp='1286501567' post='2478405']
As I understand it, it's not really a +1 bonus as much as it's a lack of a -1 penalty. Unless you have the one religion that your people want, you have a -1 penalty.

Buying the wonder gives you a +5 bonus and you don't risk the -1 penalty.
[/quote]
Which is why GM>GT. Unless you're a rabid RP'er, there's no need to ignore your peoples' wishes for the religion choice, whereas there are legitimate in-game reasons for picking a different government type.

[Harry Dresden]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1286504438' post='2478436']
Which is why GM>GT. Unless you're a rabid RP'er, there's no need to ignore your peoples' wishes for the religion choice, whereas there are legitimate in-game reasons for picking a different government type.
[/quote]
A lot of people get it to set their government to "none" or Christianity (think of the CCC). Personally, I'd buy the Great Temple so my people could worship only me.

[Locke]

[quote name='Harry Dresden' timestamp='1286506453' post='2478484']
A lot of people get it to set their government to "none" or Christianity (think of the CCC). Personally, I'd buy the Great Temple so my people could worship only me.
[/quote]
Yes, but that's usually for RP reasons or, as is probably the case for more casual players, simple ignorance of or lack of interest in squeezing every last dime out of the system. And I think "Modism" should be a new in-game religion if you wanted to do such. Next game update, maybe?

[Ironfist]

[quote name='Harry Dresden' timestamp='1286506453' post='2478484']
A lot of people get it to set their government to "none" or Christianity (think of the CCC). Personally, I'd buy the Great Temple so my people could worship only me.
[/quote]

New religion it is.

o/ Modism

And Great Monument is sometimes classed as less beneficial because there's the possibility of one's citizens being happy with the government you are using. It works out that on chance, the Great Temple is a better happiness bonus, however given it is a one in [don't know how many governments there are off the top of my head], it means the Great Temple is slightly better.

That being said, I chose the Great Monument first.

[quigon jinn]

[quote name='Harry Dresden' timestamp='1286501567' post='2478405']
As I understand it, it's not really a +1 bonus as much as it's a lack of a -1 penalty. Unless you have the one religion that your people want, you have a -1 penalty.

Buying the wonder gives you a +5 bonus and you don't risk the -1 penalty.
[/quote]

This is correct.

There is a -1 happiness penalty for not having the correct religion.


Lock however is incorrect, as there are zero cases in which the Great Monument is actually [i]better[/i] than the Great Temple. Some of the time it is [i]equal[/i] to the Great Temple but it is never better.

[Duncan King]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1286506844' post='2478494']
Yes, but that's usually for RP reasons or, as is probably the case for more casual players, simple ignorance of or lack of interest in squeezing every last dime out of the system. And I think "Modism" should be a new in-game religion if you wanted to do such. Next game update, maybe?
[/quote]
I think you overestimate the amount of people who actually RP, at least in the sense of the Open National RP forums. Personally, I outlawed religion as soon as I was able to (by buying the wonder) but it's mainly because I'm an atheist and because I don't agree with the concept of a government mandated religion.

Getting back to the question, the Great Temple provides a +5 bonus while the Great Monument only provides a +4 so it is "better" from a numerical standpoint. However, both wonders give you the time saving benefit of not having to figure out what your people want. They're fickle individuals and can go from wanting to be Christian and live in a Transitional government to wanting to be Buddhists and live in a Democracy. For me, the price of both wonders was worth the benefit of not having to cater to their whims.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Duncan King

[nippy]

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1286545289' post='2478816']
I think you overestimate the amount of people who actually RP, at least in the sense of the Open National RP forums. Personally, I outlawed religion as soon as I was able to (by buying the wonder) but it's mainly because I'm an atheist and because I don't agree with the concept of a government mandated religion.
[/quote]


I did the same.

A lot of people consider the GM a better purchase due to the 'no reason not to go with the religion your people want' bit, but I'll gladly suffer the minuscule consequences of my decision rather than having my country prefer a religion again.

[quigon jinn]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1286823211' post='2481674'][b]A lot of people consider the GM a better purchase [/b]due to the 'no reason not to go with the religion your people want' bit, but I'll gladly suffer the minuscule consequences of my decision rather than having my country prefer a religion again.
[/quote]

This belief is never correct. The GM is never [i]better[/i] than the GT, at best it is equal.

[Ironfist]

[quote name='quigon jinn' timestamp='1286887488' post='2482281']
This belief is never correct. The GM is never [i]better[/i] than the GT, at best it is equal.
[/quote]

Actually your belief is incorrect. Many think the GM is better because it frees up the government position and people are happy no matter what you choice your gov is (which actually can have an impact on your nation, in contrast to religion). One has actual reason to go against the people's gov desires, however a player would be mad to go against the religious desires.

There's no point debating the fact that it's slightly better in happiness because most people here wouldn't care, given their people usually don't like their gov most of the time.

[quigon jinn]

[quote name='Ironfist' timestamp='1286887889' post='2482282']
Actually your belief is incorrect. Many think the GM is better because it frees up the government position and people are happy no matter what you choice your gov is (which actually can have an impact on your nation, in contrast to religion). One has actual reason to go against the people's gov desires, however a player would be mad to go against the religious desires.

There's no point debating the fact that it's slightly better in happiness because most people here wouldn't care, given their people usually don't like their gov most of the time.
[/quote]

Ok, from a purely mechanical standpoint (best economic effect) the Great Monument is never better than the Great Temple. Sometimes it is equally good. But never better.

[nippy]

[quote name='quigon jinn' timestamp='1286889359' post='2482312']
Ok, from a purely mechanical standpoint (best economic effect) the Great Monument is never better than the Great Temple. Sometimes it is equally good. But never better.
[/quote]

Okay, now explain that view. I concur with what Ironfist says, but you haven't really provided a counterpoint.

[quigon jinn]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1286898527' post='2482488']
Okay, now explain that view. I concur with what Ironfist says, but you haven't really provided a counterpoint.
[/quote]

[quote]# Great Monument - $35,000,000 - The great monument is a testament to your great leadership. Increases happiness +4 and your population will always be happy with your government choice. [/quote]
[quote]# Great Temple - $35,000,000 - The great temple is a dedicated shrine to your national religion. Increases happiness +5 and your population will always be happy with your religion choice.[/quote]

Assuming one is able to determine which religion is correct (easy with quick google search), the Great Temple will always provide +5 happiness.

A nation with a gov choice the people do not like has -1 happiness compared to a nation otherwise identical but who approve of their gov. For example, my population currently desires Democracy (I do not have Great Monument). If another nation is exactly the same as mine but whose people desire Communism, they will have one less base happiness than me. Note: if your people desire Communism you are far better off having Democracy as a government type as it is much superior (even though the people want Communism; this is true of most government types save Democracy/Republic/Capitalist).

In my instance, because Democracy is the ideal tax collection government (this is true of probably 90% of nations, unless their people desire Capitalist or Republic and they do not have Great Monument) I will only receive +4 happiness for purchasing the Great Monument.

However, in the event that I am the other nation (whose people prefer Communism but have Democracy) I will receive +4 happiness bonus from the Great Monument as well as +1 for now having the right government, or a total of +5. This is obviously equal to the Great Temple.



The only instance the Great Monument would be [i]better[/i] would be if for some reason people were collecting using non-optimal governments and only will change to an optimal collection government if they have the Great Monument.

[nippy]

Keep in mind that selecting Democracy gives you a happiness bonus. The GM would add another happiness bonus, thereby giving you a +6 happiness (+4 for the purchase, +1 for people wanting the govt. type, +1 for Democracy itself, not to mention all the other benefits of choosing Democracy). The +5 from the GT is set in stone, yes, but there are a lot of other factors to consider when picking a govt.

[quigon jinn]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1286908614' post='2482663']
Keep in mind that selecting Democracy gives you a happiness bonus. The GM would add another happiness bonus, thereby giving you a +6 happiness (+4 for the purchase, +1 for people wanting the govt. type, +1 for Democracy itself, not to mention all the other benefits of choosing Democracy). The +5 from the GT is set in stone, yes, but there are a lot of other factors to consider when picking a govt.
[/quote]

No.

You get the +1 from democracy regardless of whether your people want Democracy or not. So it's still only +5, not +6 as you incorrectly state.

Again this is with the assumption you have picked an optimal government choice for collection without the Great Monument. Democracy is a better government for collection than all but Capitalist and Republic (these are equal if your people want them) in almost all cases. The only case in which this might not be true is if your citizens want Monarchy/Revolutionary/Totalitarian AND you have a perfect environment w/o Border Walls; then these can be better than Democracy. In all other cases you should have Democracy for maximum collection purposes - even if you do not have the Great Monument.

[nippy]

[quote name='quigon jinn' timestamp='1286909782' post='2482682']
No.

You get the +1 from democracy regardless of whether your people want Democracy or not. So it's still only +5, not +6 as you incorrectly state.
[/quote]

I said in my post that there was a happiness bonus for Democracy. I also mentioned the +1 happiness for having the desired government. +4 upon purchase, +1 for desired govt., +1 for choosing Democracy = +6. What I didn't account for was a GT is +5 upon purchase and +1 for desired religion. So, in essence, they're both +6, unless I'm mistaken and the happiness bonus for choosing desired govt/religion is nullified upon purchase. Either way, despite Democracy being the sole government one should use in most instances, the happiness bonus it provides is nullified by your citizens wanting something else. This is why the GM makes more sense to get first than the GT.

[quigon jinn]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1286941710' post='2483192']
I said in my post that there was a happiness bonus for Democracy. I also mentioned the +1 happiness for having the desired government. +4 upon purchase, +1 for desired govt., +1 for choosing Democracy = +6. What I didn't account for was a GT is +5 upon purchase and +1 for desired religion. So, in essence, they're both +6, unless I'm mistaken and the happiness bonus for choosing desired govt/religion is nullified upon purchase. Either way, despite Democracy being the sole government one should use in most instances, the happiness bonus it provides is nullified by your citizens wanting something else. This is why the GM makes more sense to get first than the GT.
[/quote]

This is still wrong.

Your including the +1 from "choosing Democracy" applies whether or not you have the Great Monument. Adding the Great Monument will not make this bonus appear; you get it with or without the wonder. So if you have Democracy and it is not your preferred gov, you will get +5 additional when you buy GM -- a +4 from wonder, and another +1 from desired, total of +5.

If your people want democracy and you buy GM, you get +4 from wonder, total of +4.

Great Temple always gives a total of +5.

[nippy]

[quote name='quigon jinn' timestamp='1286942440' post='2483208']
This is still wrong.

Your including the +1 from "choosing Democracy" applies whether or not you have the Great Monument. Adding the Great Monument will not make this bonus appear; you get it with or without the wonder. So if you have Democracy and it is not your preferred gov, you will get +5 additional when you buy GM -- a +4 from wonder, and another +1 from desired, total of +5.

If your people want democracy and you buy GM, you get +4 from wonder, total of +4.

Great Temple always gives a total of +5.
[/quote]

You're confused by what I'm saying. You realize there's a bonus +1 happiness for choosing your desired govt./religion, yes? I'm not saying the +1 for Democracy is the same as the bonus given for choosing your desired government. I realize there's an added bonus for Democracy itself. If you're discounting the happiness bonus for desired govt/religion, they're still both +5/+5 (if you pick a government that gives a happiness bonus). If you happen to pick a government that [i]doesn't[/i] give a happiness bonus, then yes, you'll get a +4 from the GM.

[Captain Nathan Brittles]

Just to clarify having the preferred government or religion DOES NOT give a +1 happiness bonus as has been alluded to a number of times in this thread. Having the preferred government or religion avoids taking a -1 happiness penalty. It's an important distinction.

[Ironfist]

[quote name='quigon jinn' timestamp='1286942440' post='2483208']
This is still wrong.

Your including the +1 from "choosing Democracy" applies whether or not you have the Great Monument. Adding the Great Monument will not make this bonus appear; you get it with or without the wonder. So if you have Democracy and it is not your preferred gov, you will get +5 additional when you buy GM -- a +4 from wonder, and another +1 from desired, total of +5.

If your people want democracy and you buy GM, you get +4 from wonder, total of +4.

Great Temple always gives a total of +5.
[/quote]

Picking ANY government gives perks other than a +1 happiness point. Therefore, you state they're "economically the same", but really they're not, because the government offers more, depending on which is chosen.

Also make sure "chance" isn't mistaken for economical statistics and smarts. While there might be the "chance" that your people will want the gov you have, let's face it, the chance also suggests you won't get it.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Ironfist

[nippy]

[quote name='Captain Nathan Brittles' timestamp='1286943973' post='2483239']
Just to clarify having the preferred government or religion DOES NOT give a +1 happiness bonus as has been alluded to a number of times in this thread. Having the preferred government or religion avoids taking a -1 happiness penalty. It's an important distinction.
[/quote]

Sounds like a glass half full/half empty kind of situation. How do +1 happiness and lack of -1 happiness not equal the same thing?

[Star Adder]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1286986631' post='2483655']
Sounds like a glass half full/half empty kind of situation. How do +1 happiness and lack of -1 happiness not equal the same thing?
[/quote]one of them is +0 while the other is +1

[nippy]

[quote name='Ibomb' timestamp='1287029799' post='2484169']
one of them is +0 while the other is +1
[/quote]

Okay, but it's still a point of happiness that you're talking about. Perspectives can differ on the lack of a -1 happiness bonus and still be correct...avoiding the penalty is just as beneficial as adding a point, in other words.

[iMatt]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1286943085' post='2483224']
You're confused by what I'm saying. You realize there's a bonus +1 happiness for choosing your desired govt./religion, yes? I'm not saying the +1 for Democracy is the same as the bonus given for choosing your desired government. I realize there's an added bonus for Democracy itself. If you're discounting the happiness bonus for desired govt/religion, they're still both +5/+5 (if you pick a government that gives a happiness bonus). If you happen to pick a government that [i]doesn't[/i] give a happiness bonus, then yes, you'll get a +4 from the GM.
[/quote]
I think what quigon is trying to say is this:

The GOV versus RELIGION happiness bonus for having the correct one are not the same inherently. For religion it's like a "Free" +1, since you should *always* have the correct religion. For government, you often *don't* have the correct gov for good reason (ie choosing democracy over your preferred gov). In these cases, buying a GT *does not* give you an extra +1 happiness since you already had it. Buying a GM *does*, since you didn't have your preferred, but now you do.

Does that make sense?

Edit: I didn't read this current page, it seems quigon already explained it. (furthermore, I don't understand why this is under "debate". Quigon's statement about which is better was fact to me before I read this thread anyway.)

Edited October 14, 2010 by iMatt