Joint NATO/IRON/TOP Announcement

[PrideAssassin]

It means a member of the government is spying.

Oh cool. Crisis averted. All clear folks! Nothing to see here!

That's pretty neat.

I secretly wish i had that super power... If for nothing else, than to crush everyone who annoyed me.

Edited January 1, 2010 by PrideAssassin

[James I]

I secretly wish i had that super power... If for nothing else, than to crush everyone who annoyed me.

Yeah.

Okay, well as I'm a stupid ninny who can't decode your posts, could you explain what relevance your quoting of neneko had against what I stated previous to it?

[Jyrinx]

The last few pages (since I stopped posting) have been absolutely painful to read. I actually have people I semi-regularly chat to in IRON and they're quite nice people. But man, IRON posters overall are just god awful. So are NPO posters, but we already knew that.

Here are a bunch of posts I wanted to respond to

Brainwashed minion responding as ordered

When any other alliance gets nailed or accused for multi's and or Spying: No excuses allowed! Let The Beatings Begin!

When a KARMA, Alliance member is caught doing almost the same thing they just punished other alliances for: It is ok and all is automatically forgiven, No harm no foul!

Gotcha!!, I understand completely now..

/me waits for further lies, erm Brainwashing techniques

But Ragnarok didn't spy on anyone. How dense can you be? Rish was an advisor at the time, which can mean many things in different alliances. Apparently in Ragnarok, it isn't a government position at all and is simply just that: an advisor. If something has been said in this thread that contradicts what an advisor is in Ragnarok, then I missed it.

Being former gov means nothing. Heck, apparently this former triumvir had little to no additional masking either.

So, how exactly is Ragnarok government involved in this at all?

NPO propaganda usually goes around just repeating crap enough times till people believe it. Sorry, not buying it; if you have proof that Ragnarok gov was involved then please link me to it.

Sure. Ex-Gov, current "Foreign Affairs" Advisor to RoK gov.

Clear enough?

But in RoK, Foreign Affairs advisor isn't a government position. I mean, I guess you can stretch it to be one if you really want, but that would be like saying Siberian Guard (in STA) is a government position. SG's have a little extra masking and are basically military commanders. RoK has already stated that they don't consider the role of Advisor to be a government position. It might be different in your alliance, but in their alliance it's not a gov position and entails little (if any) additional masking

You gotta understand the guy, he is arguing from a impossible position.

At least he is waving his flag, supporting (no matter how weakly) his side.

Opposition to Rok et al can be happy, RoK has given them much more they could have dreamed off to work with,..gotta love this level of "fail",..to go with this popular colloquialism

*facedesk*

People are saying that while there is an orgy of evidence suggesting that Rish/President Magee were multis and may have tried to infiltrate other alliances, nothing, absolutely nothing, shows that Ragnarok government was aware of this attempt at all. Until such evidence is produced, there is nothing to implicate RoK gov. That's all.

The entire argument literally rests on whether or not an Advisor can be considered gov. In RoK as has been explained multiple times, this is not the case.

While I dont mind doitzel crushing his left credibility (or tyga for that matter honestly) with arguing from impossible positions to claim their objective moralist title, AirMe honestly,..don't.

Long term highest goverment rank and then turn advisor to new,..is a high position and status within an alliance. OP was too kind in that regard. One reasonable individual has to seriously consider and gather that RoK gov was in to this spy/ghosting/creating trouble thing.

Semantics about ex gov position turn advisor to highest level of gov is or is not an actual gov is trivial matter here. And you know it.

Just saying.

(emphasis mine)

You're imposing how your alliance does masking onto RoK. In RoK, it is not a high position and status. You would know this if you just asked him.

And no, a reasonable individual has to consider what evidence an accuser has to back up the accusation he makes against a defender. Until said accuser can come up with reasonable evidence, and not mere conjecture, the defender has an absolute defense. It is simply not possible to prove a negative.

I'm curious as to why they didn't attack.

Because they're trying to score cheap PR points. Too bad they have no evidence to actually implicate RoK gov. Or even merely suggest that RoK gov knew.

wow.. Rok has it wired don't they?

why be accountable for the actions of your GOVERNMENT OR FORMER GOVT OR GOVT ADVISORS (semantic arguement btw, once you are a politician you are always a politician) when you can just say "Sorry bout that Bros."

This is absurd; if I resign as a member of the Consilium Tigris right now and thus hold no gov position in STA, decide to start a spy ring in another alliance, and don't tell STA about it, do you think STA should be held responsible? Just because I was a former government official? Why?

And you're trying to impose how your alliance does stuff onto RoK: in RoK an advisor simply cannot be viewed as a government official since he has no powers and little (if any) additional masking.

Right, and any and all information he got from NATO he kept compartmentalized in his brain from the RoK side. His Rok side was never privy to the information he gleamed from NATO at all.

Those arguing against the spying that took place here, are really just pathetic.

Pray tell, what information could he possibly have gotten from NATO in their training program? Their admission procedures?

Yes, its a trivial matter.

I am sure your opinion would be the same if Moo was found out to hold multis in your alliance.

That wouldn't be trivial, nor is this.

Dismiss it you try, impossible that task is,......thats my drunken yoda,..u like?

Supporting that party line until the end, holding to weakest possible straws you can come up with. I can respect that, though, its a futile task.

I personally wouldn't hold NPO responsible if Moo was holding a multi in STA, unless it could be shown that NPO gov knew about it. Of course, others might and in that case I think it's still different than the current RoK spying issue: doesn't Moo have masking access to all parts of your forums?

For everyone arguing about how no one knew about this spying, I call shenanigans. First of all, what would be the point of creating a multi and going to another AA if not to spy? If he wanted to try out a different alliance, he could have just left Rok and moved on. Secondly, as to the fact that no one knew about it, what would be the point of spying if not to pass along information? You certainly don't risk getting outright banned from CN for !@#$% and giggles.

The multi was created 1200 days ago. It wasn't made to spy. As can be seen on page 25, my post lists Unspeakable Evil's data set with respect to both multies and for the vast majority of the time they were in the same alliance. There is simply no evidence to suggest any spying/attempted infiltration was done prior to these current attempts, which were done after Rish was no longer in any government position.

Wow...

First of all, to clear up misconceptions. An Advisor is the privvy to information at the lowest level of government in Ragnarok, though they are not government themselves. They are a part of the Advisory Council, with the High Council and Ruling Council above them. They are above Warriors, or the membership base of Ragnarok, but they are not privy to any high level privileged information.

In terms of whether Rish ever shared any of the information he got from his spying with any members of government, when Hoo left and Rish was appointed to Trium, I was also on the Ruling Council. There was never a thread or post made by Rish concerning spying of any kind. As far as I knew, and I knew a lot, we had no idea he had a multi of any kind. Rish seemed to be a competent leader, usually the level head in disputes. Currently, I am at the same level that Rish was (an Adviser) and I still never saw anything concerning spying.

So, at least from this Rok gov member's standpoint, both when in high gov and now on the Advisory Council, I never saw anything about Rish spying. As far as I know, he never shared the information with anyone.

EDIT: Clarified.

Everyone read this. Now.

[Jyrinx]

A high level RoK government advicer using a multi to spy on IRON and NATO while trying to stir up trouble between NSO and TOP.... well that doesn't sound anything like something RoK would support. I've read post after post from RoK, Athens, and GoD about how spying is bad....

God, IRON posters are god awful. I just have to say that again.

He wasn't a high level RoK anything. He had a mask apparently that gave a little additional masking (seems similar to what STA's military commanders get). He wasn't a government official at all. You're trying to impose how you think they should do things onto reality: in RoK at least, the position of advisor seems to literally be just someone the alliance can go to to get advice. He isn't gov, has no power, and little additional masking.

I'll admit it's possible. However I find it extremely unlikely and quite frankly totally insane that he would maintain a second account for 1200 days so that he could use it to spy on NATO after three and a half years.

p.s. I've yet to see anyone come up for a reason as to why anyone would care to spy on NATO. They're one of the lowest profile alliances around, and this is coming from the freaking CSN.

Anyways it's 3am. See you in the morning, maybe proof of Hoo's involvement will come to you in your dreams.

Once again, we don't have high level government advisers. Advisers are not a part of the government and only have low level access to government discussions.

Everyone read these. Now.

Even though I've not read anything in this thread let me take a stab at what's going on.

Everyone that's awesome agree that this post is awesome

Everyone that is bad is trolling it.

(Reverse if you're on the other side)

Did I nail it?

By the way, we're right.

*facedesk again*. Did I mention IRON posters are god awful?

Man this is rich, and perfect timing too!

Its like the irony fairy came personally to wish us all a happy new decade.

Hey look, it's the guy that bailed NPO at the first sign of trouble. And apparently he didn't read that there is actually no evidence to suggest Ragnarok gov was involved. But that doesn't stop him from making a cheap shot.

Like so many others have said, IRON, TOP, NATO now have a perpetual justification for war agianst ragnarok.

Being former allies, I really would not have expected ragnarok to stoop to this level, and allow themselves to be caught in such hypocrisy. Dissapointing.

No, they don't. Look at the evidence in its entirety, including my post on page 25. What reason is there to believe that Ragnarok gov knew anything? Because TOP/IRON/NSO say so? They literally have zero evidence implicating Ragnarok. Until they produce such evidence, I hold Ragnarok gov to be innocent.

And before anyone says "but that's hard to prove!", well tough !@#$. You need something more than just "But Rish was a former trimvir and advises Ragnarok gov!"

You are half way correct. My cookie cutter response could apply to any karma response in this thread. All the posts I've seen so far seem like the same old party line repeated and rehashed over and over again. It's like hey guys, lets ignore facts and relevant information and let's just spew what we've been spoon fed to say.

I'd like to say thank you to the God's of New Years Eve because the mind numbing effects of alcohol make me finally seem like one of you.

/not using your brain

(emphasis mine)

Did I mention that IRON posters are god awful? To be fair, this is the same guy I quoted a bit earlier.

-snip-

Everyone go read this post. Now.

-snip-

How does any of this implicate Ragnarok government though? And it's probably premature to say that ARES got used; how exactly did the merger happen? Did President Magee get to determine certain terms for ARES post merger with respect to how the alliance functions or something (genuinely curious since I don't know)

-snip-

Like I said before, saying that he's infiltrating RoK allies or helping RoK gain allies is kinda a stretch. At least, with what we know right now anyway.

Regardless, I'm not sure I see how this implicates RoK gov at all in the current spying situation. I guess ARES has grounds to investigate some stuff if they'd like. Not sure what that has to do with TOP/IRON/NSO/NATO though.

[Vespassianus]

I'm not so surprised to see this.

This stuff is posted just too soon

[Haflinger]

How does any of this implicate Ragnarok government though? And it's probably premature to say that ARES got used; how exactly did the merger happen? Did President Magee get to determine certain terms for ARES post merger with respect to how the alliance functions or something (genuinely curious since I don't know)

It implicates RoK government because, at the time, he was at the highest level in Ragnarok government being a triumvir.

[daggarz]

If a spy joins Ragnarok and makes triumvir, this is pretty clear evidence that Ragnarok's government is spying.

In what Universe?!?!? That is such a stupid assumption. First of all, if a spy joins Ragnarok and makes triumvir than it is pretty clear that Ragnarok is being spied upon. There is no way you can draw a relation between what you just said.

Edit: I have no secondly...

Edited January 1, 2010 by daggarz

[Jyrinx]

It implicates RoK government because, at the time, he was at the highest level in Ragnarok government being a triumvir.

Oh, he was trimvir then? Then yeah... ARES totally has cause to investigate that. I don't see how that affects the current question of if Ragnarok government knew of Rish's current infiltration attempts (if you want to call them that)

[The Eye]

This is a horrible and unredeemable mess of OOC and IC, not to mention various other infractions (like making me read long posts on New Year's ). If you want to make a thread to discuss this IC then please do so. But right now you're just having IC arguments in the wrong place, and the thread has enough OOC material that it was moved here in the first place, so it's not going anywhere.

Locked.