The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[Necromancer V4L]

Atleast you're being honest, I'll give you that.

Thank you, you are both a scholar and a gentleman.

-----

If this act by TPF is so acceptable, and spying is so acceptable, then the rest of Bob will act accordingly and strike against Athens/RoK/GOD/\m/ for their actions. Eventually, we will achieve a victor, and either it will be laid into history that spying is acceptable in a case of war or that spying is never acceptable.

OOC: Underlined that one for you.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Necromancer V4L

[der_ko]

Only when all this occurred TPF were at war with Athens and ceased all communications with ZH before that war was over, spying is one of the many acceptable facets of war, as such this CB is noCB at all.

Once again, TPF was never at war with Athens and if you claim they were in a de facto war with Athens then they never signed a peace agreement so war never ended. You need to work on your spinning.

Edited December 27, 2009 by der_ko

[Nobody Expects]

Once again, there was never a formal declaration of war between Athens and TPF. I don't believe there was one single fight between the two. I also don't believe trying to infiltrate an alliance was ever an acceptable practice and has long been considered a valid CB.

To quote Karma from the Karma war "This is not a war of treaties, it is a war of sides." TPF were on the opposite side of the war to Athens, this CB is noCB at all, its 6mths old, dates from a time these alliances were at war, and doesn't stand up to even the briefest scrutiny.

You need to work on your spinning.

Spinning is what you are your ilk do, we just tell it how we see it, be seeing you round soon.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Nobody Expects

[Rush Sykes]

So TPF's claims are based on nearly full proof evidence showing how the war was fabricated, and your key point is the term "sitrep."

Alright, thanks for playing. Door's on the left.

Beautiful way to ignore everything in the post. Keep it up.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Rush Sykes

[shahenshah]

Mhawk, I may have missed it so please point it out to me if I have. But where in this refutation of the accusations and evidence have you dealt with the core accusation here and the main element of the casus belli cited by Athens, RoK et.al.? That is, that you set up Zero Hour for the specific purpose of infiltrating Athens to cause harm to that alliance.

Welcome Tyga,

Setup during the war. Should alliances not commit acts of war during war. Its an appropriate tactic when facing eternal war.

I get that you and Zero Hour had a falling out, that is why they have turned informer on you. But, to me it appears you still set up this system for the purpose Zero Hour have claimed and as such I don't think you have refuted the claims made against you fully.

So the CB is 'what if' & that also few months ago ?

You claim the program you devised was a "what if" in case you were in eternal war. But the fact the alliance was created and put into action (gaining a protectorate with Athens) seems to show this was perhaps not entirely accurate. It appears to me based on what I have seen that the evidence provided by Athens and RoK supports their assertion that TPF, under your leadership, fully intended to use Zero Hour for the purposes they accuse you of.

Ok so now the accusation is TPF had full intentions to carry out accusations, again thats a what if scenario. As stated, TPF had those intentions if faced with Eternal war, if you re-read the OP, you would not need to ask the questions. As you say, TPF had full intentions, have you found something to prove that? did TPF sent someone else? IF TPF had full intentions to do it, lets see what they've done after the war

[James I]

So TPF's claims are based on nearly full proof evidence showing how the war was fabricated, and your key point is the term "sitrep."

Alright, thanks for playing. Door's on the left.

Where is the full proof evidence that TPF never attempted to inflitrate Athens?

[SkonesMickLoud]

Only when all this occurred TPF were at war with Athens and ceased all communications with ZH before that war was over, spying is one of the many acceptable facets of war, as such this CB is noCB at all.

Too bad that is was a long-term plan, and not was recognised as something that was not going to happen over night.

This all could have been avoided if TPF had said "Ooh, by the way, while we were at war we set up ZH to spy/sabotage you guys." when the war was over...

[raasaa]

We ask all our allies to support us militarily in this defense and any mediators to talk to the alliances that have attacked TPF.

looking forward to responses from TPF's allies....specially from their MDoAP partner NATO...

[Alterego]

Once again, there was never a formal declaration of war between Athens and TPF. I don't believe there was one single fight between the two. I also don't believe trying to infiltrate an alliance was ever an acceptable practice and has long been considered a valid CB.

It was made clear by the Karma side over and over during that war that individual DoWs weren't necessary. Being on the opposite side of the war or being friends with someone was enough to get in on the beatdown. There were 2 clear sides of a global war, that doesnt suit you guys anymore so you have come up with a new set of rules for that war and backdated them to fit this rubbish outdated DoW.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

This whole argument that TPF and Athens were never at war is going to get old. It was Karma vs Hegemony. Once you label yourself as such you're at war with everyone. Athens happened to be a key player on the Karma side and this I see the spying as legit.

[magicninja]

I'm sorry but I'm with tyga on this one. You guys planned and set it into motion. The fact that things went bad is irrelevant. I wonder what may have happened if you guys remained good buddies and saw it through until you did do actual harm to Athens. Not cool.

[Remaliat]

Given what I have read from both sides and what I understand on the issue I really can't help but feeling that a few alliances acted without fact checking their CB. Of course fact checking without talking is rather hard.

Best of luck TPF

[Johnny Apocalypse]

Spinning is what you are your ilk do, we just tell it how we see it, be seeing you round soon.

Ahaha, hello Mr Pot. What do you mean? I'm black? Well I guess you'd know.

[Atanatar]

Only when all this occurred TPF were at war with Athens and ceased all communications with ZH before that war was over, spying is one of the many acceptable facets of war, as such this CB is noCB at all.

you would be 100% correct and be declared thread winner if it wasn't for the glaringly obvious fact TPF and Athen was NOT at war in the Karma war with TPF, or if I'm horribly, horribly mistaken, they never surrendered in their surrender thread that declared the end of the Karma War. But, again, if I'm horribly mistaken then Athens and TPF never ended the war that went on in your head, and thus this is a resumption of hostilities.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Atanatar

[bill n ted]

Where is the full proof evidence that TPF never attempted to inflitrate Athens?

Could you point out where TPF could find proof of something that didnt happen?

Your logic is like saying "IRONs never infiltrated NPO but I want evidence to show that fact" which of course would not exist.

All Im seeing in this thread thus far is "lalalalalala not listening lalalalalala"

[Tygaland]

Welcome Tyga,

Thank you, happy to be here.

Setup during the war. Should alliances not commit acts of war during war. Its an appropriate tactic when facing eternal war.

TPF were not at war with Athens.

So the CB is 'what if' & that also few months ago ?

No, the CB is that TPF set up a splinter cell that began operations to infiltrate and harm Athens and that TPF planned to use similar cells to commit similar acts against RoK and apparently Sparta. There is no "what if" about it. Zero Hour was created.

Ok so now the accusation is TPF had full intentions to carry out accusations, again thats a what if scenario. As stated, TPF had those intentions if faced with Eternal war, if you re-read the OP, you would not need to ask the questions. As you say, TPF had full intentions, have you found something to prove that? did TPF sent someone else? IF TPF had full intentions to do it, lets see what they've done after the war

Zero Hour was created, that if proof they planned to put it into action. Zero Hour obtained a protectorate with Athens as per TPF's plans. The logs posts only a few posts up show Mhawk and Zero Hour members discussing their activities and mentioning their desire to cause harm to the alliances they were targeting.

I suggest you read the logs in the Athens DoW thread and then you will see that a lot of what was alleged in that DoW has not been addressed here.

And finally, I'm not making any accusations, I'm asking questions about the evidence presented and the response to it.

Now, I'll await Mhawk to actually answer my questions now that I have dealt with your attempt at deflection.

[shahenshah]

This whole argument that TPF and Athens were never at war is going to get old. It was Karma vs Hegemony. Once you label yourself as such you're at war with everyone. Athens happened to be a key player on the Karma side and this I see the spying as legit.

Indeed, when alliances not fighting specific alliances also tried to influence the surrender terms, btw for good and bad, both ways.

[Alterego]

you would be 100% correct and be declared thread winner if it wasn't for the glaringly obvious fact TPF and Athen was NOT at war in the Karma war with TPF, or if I'm horribly, horribly mistaken, they never surrendered in their surrender thread that declared the end of the Karma War. But, again, if I'm horribly mistaken then Athens and TPF never ended the war that went on in your head, and thus this is a resumption of hostilities.

Look closer

Article I ~ Surrender

The Phoenix Federation (TPF) hereby formally surrenders and admits defeat to Karma,

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Karma

[Anu Drake]

looking forward to responses from TPF's allies....specially from their MDoAP partner NATO...

NATO supports TPF and finds the details of this war sketchy at best and opportunist at worst. We would never fight a fellow Aqua nation directly, and hope that TPF and their opponents, as well as any mediators helping out, find a way to end this pointless war before further action is necessary. However, Rasaa, as you bolded the military part in your post I will tell you that NATO will not cancel our treaty with TPF nor will we be invoking any type of espionage clause. Of course, I am but an unofficial monarch...

[2burnt2eat]

you would be 100% correct and be declared thread winner if it wasn't for the glaringly obvious fact TPF and Athen was NOT at war in the Karma war with TPF, or if I'm horribly, horribly mistaken, they never surrendered in their surrender thread that de Laredo the end of the Karma War. But, again, if I'm horribly mistaken then Athens and TPF never ended the war that went on in your head, and thus this is a resumption of hostilities.

Oh please, TPF was at war with Karma, and Athens was a big player in it.

Regardless, this should be more of an inquiry whether these plans were still attempted to be played-out well-after the war, not of spying then :/

[_GunneR_]

Let us see if I remember how to do this...

mhawk, whether on-going or not, set up Zero Hour as an faux-alliance meant to weaken/control/influence Athens. Can we all agree this is correct? In which case, such plans are disruptive and harmful to Athens and anyone possibly connected to them. Let us assume these activities were ceased, should Athens be willing to let this attempt slide? Moreover, can anyone other alliance be willing to allow such a leader as mhawk to continue to lead with such modes considering whatever motives may arise in future.

Whether the spying continues now or not is irrelevant, it was attempted. Successful malice should never carry a heavier price, the mindset is what needs changing. The mindset of mhawk is irrational, unbalanced and dangerous to anyone who would participate in even the most just wars, such as the Karma War. I applaud Athens, Ragnarok, \m/ and the Global Order of Darkness for removing one who would attempt such a low act against an indirect enemy that would do nothing to elevate their own interests but only harm another for the sake of harm.

[Alterego]

When they signed the peace treaty all aggressive/offensive actions against Karma stopped.

[Jgoods45]

I also see you edited the Shuru logs. Whats wrong mhawk? Running out of straws to grasp?

[Nobody Expects]

you would be 100% correct and be declared thread winner if it wasn't for the glaringly obvious fact TPF and Athen was NOT at war in the Karma war with TPF, or if I'm horribly, horribly mistaken, they never surrendered in their surrender thread that declared the end of the Karma War. But, again, if I'm horribly mistaken then Athens and TPF never ended the war that went on in your head, and thus this is a resumption of hostilities.

It was a war of sides, Karma was at war with Hegemony, Athens was at war with TPF. There is no CB to be had in this, it's just breathtaking to witness this being used by \m/, Athens and RoK in this regard.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Nobody Expects

[James I]

Could you point out where TPF could find proof of something that didnt happen?

Your logic is like saying "IRONs never infiltrated NPO but I want evidence to show that fact" which of course would not exist.

All Im seeing in this thread thus far is "lalalalalala not listening lalalalalala"

...what? The poster I quoted said he had proof. I was requesting it.