NPO History Discussion

[WarriorConcept]

Right right right.

Sheesh. Why won't you people just let me clutch to my personal flights of fancy

Because you're Fallen Fail

[Seerow]

He was expelled immediately.

That makes the count two on "ridiculous conspiracy theories on events that happened 3 years ago".

Edit: Apparently it's somebody else that I was thinking of. I can't even remember who, I just remembered Anthony !@#$%*ing about an exposed spy being in .gov.

Edit2: Apparently the person I was thinking of was Lord Nebulous, who was also part of the Coven, but was not expelled as she outed Nosey. Or something along those lines, it's been a few years since Ive thought about any of this. Sorry for the confusion, I take back my previous objection.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Seerow

[Essenia]

That's a damn lie, because I know for a fact he was still in the alliance and .gov when I was there, which was well after the whole spy thing had been resolved.

I do believe that his nation was given away at some point, that may have played some role in the confusion.

[Seerow]

I do believe that his nation was given away at some point, that may have played some role in the confusion.

No, you can see my edits. I was thinking of a different member who was caught up in the same mess who was not expelled.

[LJ Scott]

NPO traitors are this weeks flavour again?

[Francesca]

King Justin would be tickled to know that some of us are talking about him. *chuckles*

This make me laugh a bit.

I'm very interested in Pacifican history, but frankly, this thread is far too broad and needs to focus on a specific aspect of history. For now, I will remain out of it.

[WorldConqueror]

NPO talked to Archon about ending the war before talking to TORN. Later on, they tried blaming the entire thing on TORN while trying to extricate themselves. Of course, by this time I think NPO and TORN were rather split by the fact that NPO hadn't discussed things with TORN first and the fact that TORN had gone around telling everyone NPO had tried to abandon them.

Whether NPO actually was trying to pull out without TORN or just acting without thinking things all the way through as a symptom of the very panicky mood most people were in at this point is debatable, though.

And I thought we'd finished our forum war. We did not abandon TORN. We were not going to abandon TORN. We approached Archon about ending the war before talking to TORN, yes, but any deal that got us out of the war was always going to include TORN, or else we wouldn't have taken it and stayed in. But of course Archon used this info to convince Bigwoody that we were going to leave them hanging, and he freaked out and instead of coming and checking if any of it was true, he ran around telling everyone that we had betrayed him. If I was one of those people prone to believing conspiracy theories, I'd be very interested in the start of this war. Why? Well TORN brought us the info about OV spying, TORN was pushing to go to war, then Archon used a mistake on our part to give Bigwoody an excuse to get out of the war and leave us out to dry, which he then used (and almost succeeded) in an attempt to get all our allies to forsake us. And who just happened to have a MDoAP? TORN and MK. Now, my leadership has assured me that it wasn't all a setup by Bigwoody and Archon, but I still have my doubts. It was just all so...convenient.

[Elendil old]

NPO traitors are this weeks flavour again?

Don't remember any other flavours unless I dozed off for a bit

[ShinRa]

And I thought we'd finished our forum war. We did not abandon TORN. We were not going to abandon TORN. We approached Archon about ending the war before talking to TORN, yes, but any deal that got us out of the war was always going to include TORN, or else we wouldn't have taken it and stayed in. But of course Archon used this info to convince Bigwoody that we were going to leave them hanging, and he freaked out and instead of coming and checking if any of it was true, he ran around telling everyone that we had betrayed him.

So you have proof or screenshots to back this up.

If I was one of those people prone to believing conspiracy theories, I'd be very interested in the start of this war. Why? Well TORN brought us the info about OV spying, TORN was pushing to go to war, then Archon used a mistake on our part to give Bigwoody an excuse to get out of the war and leave us out to dry, which he then used (and almost succeeded) in an attempt to get all our allies to forsake us.

You sound very much like you’re blaming TORN for dragging you into Pacifica’s second major loss, despite your emperor quite happily diving headlong into the Karma War with no apparent complaints or counter arguments from your own alliance and your scribes spewing very badly thought out counter arguments about how ‘we are right and you are wrong’ and the usual BS, and you blame all of this ultimately on TORN?

This is really one of the many reasons I disliked the NPO, it seems that every Hegemony victory is purely a Pacifican victory, but every Hegemony defeat is purely someone else’s fault.

Can’t you just accept that the NPO screwed up badly and be thankful that you were facing alliances more merciful than yourselves.

[TehChron]

So you have proof or screenshots to back this up.

You sound very much like you’re blaming TORN for dragging you into Pacifica’s second major loss, despite your emperor quite happily diving headlong into the Karma War with no apparent complaints or counter arguments from your own alliance and your scribes spewing very badly thought out counter arguments about how ‘we are right and you are wrong’ and the usual BS, and you blame all of this ultimately on TORN?

To be fair, you can call the end of GWI many things, but you can not called it a "major defeat" for the NPO. One of two losses is one thing, but keep your adjectives correct here, as this is a history discussion, after all.

[WorldConqueror]

So you have proof or screenshots to back this up.

You sound very much like you’re blaming TORN for dragging you into Pacifica’s second major loss, despite your emperor quite happily diving headlong into the Karma War with no apparent complaints or counter arguments from your own alliance and your scribes spewing very badly thought out counter arguments about how ‘we are right and you are wrong’ and the usual BS, and you blame all of this ultimately on TORN?

This is really one of the many reasons I disliked the NPO, it seems that every Hegemony victory is purely a Pacifican victory, but every Hegemony defeat is purely someone else’s fault.

Can’t you just accept that the NPO screwed up badly and be thankful that you were facing alliances more merciful than yourselves.

Proof or screenshots of what, exactly? It would help if you specified, instead of quoting a paragraph and letting me guess. I don't like twenty questions.

Do I have to retell a step-by-step, blow-by-blow account of Armageddon everytime I talk about it so someone like you doesn't crawl out of the woodwork and accuss me of taking no responsibility for Pacifica's part in what happened? Delta talked about what happened with TORN, and I responded to that. Go see my other posts in this thread, and the one this sprang from, to see what I have said about Pacifica's mistakes leading up to the war. Just because I didn't go through them this time, does not mean I'm trying to plead innocence through ommision.

[Choader]

I have no idea how many banks we have, but its not 675 nations, which you are claiming.

I did? Please show me where I used that number. You didn't even have 675 nations the last month of the war.

Unless of course you are trying to say NPO still had 900+ members towards then end, in which case I'll happily leave you to your delusions.

as for ~75% of NPO nations in PM for the last month? That's absolute bull.

I assure you, it is not. It seems your recollection is far and away different from everyone else who paid the slightest attention to the subject.

EDIT: [OOC]Oh, and for the sake of our warn levels, you can continue our debate here http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=66767 if you wish.[/OOC]

Good thinking. B)

[WorldConqueror]

I did? Please show me where I used that number. You didn't even have 675 nations the last month of the war.

Unless of course you are trying to say NPO still had 900+ members towards then end, in which case I'll happily leave you to your delusions.

I assure you, it is not. It seems your recollection is far and away different from everyone else who paid the slightest attention to the subject.

Good thinking. B)

I'll have to go back and check why I said 675...

I sincerely doubt that of the 600 or so we had at the end of the war, 450 of them were in PM for the last month. What would be the point of sending everyone to PM after 2 months of fullscale nuclear war? Bit late then, don't you think?

And yes, it was

EDIT: Hmmm, seems I had a brain fart and pulled the number 675 out of thin air. I guess it was to do with the 75% of nations in peacemode thing, which, you are right, doesn't make sense. My apologies

Edited August 24, 2009 by WorldConqueror

[ShinRa]

To be fair, you can call the end of GWI many things, but you can not called it a "major defeat" for the NPO. One of two losses is one thing, but keep your adjectives correct here, as this is a history discussion, after all.

The NPO's own leader had to agree to terms which meant he had to apologize not simply to the alliances he was fighting but the Cyberverse as a whole, the NpO's leader was replaced, the alliances on the side of the Coalition of Justice (am I the only one who sees the irony in that name?) were not able to enforce or dictate terms unto the alliances they were fighting and the OPs in #Cybernations at the time (Moo-Cows listed amongst them I see*) banning LUE members from the IRC over a joke and alleged ‘rude/bigotry comments.’**

Oh, and most of the threads discussing GW1 had players who had been part of that war stating very different actions by the NPO which seems to contradict with their own image of ‘Facing the world and winning.’

So in short we’ve had in relation to GW1:

The NPO being forced to comply with the will of the opposition in a war,

Apparent acts of petty revenge against said opposition which strangely leads to the LUE losing their forum masks and being banned from IRC,

The NPO later changing it’s decision and attempting to rewrite history and arguing fanatically to try and make itself look totally invincible.

Sounds more or less like a major defeat to me.

*= I am going to assume that is the NPO member Trotsky’s Revenge as I can find no other record of that name anywhere else in relation to cybernations, please correct me if I am mistaken in this matter.

**= Something which I might note seems to never have been repeated, we saw plenty of flaming by the NPO when the IAA died for the first time but that did not result in the prevention of posting (or banning) of those flaming the thread.

Proof or screenshots of what, exactly? It would help if you specified, instead of quoting a paragraph and letting me guess. I don't like twenty questions.

Proof of this alleged link between Archon and BigWoody, you state a large number of things about the both of them but I’d like to see some evidence in relation to this if you have it.

Do I have to retell a step-by-step, blow-by-blow account of Armageddon everytime I talk about it so someone like you doesn't crawl out of the woodwork and accuss me of taking no responsibility for Pacifica's part in what happened?

First of all, ‘everytime’ is two words. Secondly it’s ‘accuse.’

Delta talked about what happened with TORN, and I responded to that. Go see my other posts in this thread, and the one this sprang from, to see what I have said about Pacifica's mistakes leading up to the war.

Alright, that’s fair enough, do you have a link to it?

Edited August 24, 2009 by ShinRa

[WorldConqueror]

I don't see how any of what you said in that post adds up to a major defeat ShinRa. Most of it is thinly veiled references to a favourite cry of the anti-Pacifican hordes of the time, namely 'mod bias!!!!!1111!1!!1'. The two things that have any bearing are the apologies, and Tyga's replacement. The apologies, well we can argue that til we are both blue in the face, but we won't change each other opinion. You will say that because it was a requirement of peace that it is a sign of major defeat. I will say that we gave up nothing of value, and was done simply to end the stalemate. Repeat until satisfied.

Now, you appear to have a more solid point with Tyga's removal. However, back then, nukes, and nuke rogues, were a much bigger deal. With much smaller nations, nukes were devastating. If we wanted to be able to attract more allies postwar, we had to remove the stigma of having a first strike nuker as NpO emperor.

EDIT: and to respond to your edit:

Proof of this alleged link between Archon and BigWoody, you state a large number of things about the both of them but I’d like to see some evidence in relation to this if you have it.

If you want proof of a link, can I just post the treaty thread? That shows theres a link between them. Stupid question gets a stupid answer.

First of all, ‘everytime’ is two words. Secondly it’s ‘accuse.’

Ah, pointing out spelling mistakes, the refuge of those that have no argument. I expected better from such a seasoned anti-Order troll like you, ShinRa.

Alright, that’s fair enough, do you have a link to it?

Sure do. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=66352 If that's not what you want, be more specific.

Edited August 24, 2009 by WorldConqueror

[ShinRa]

I don't see how any of what you said in that post adds up to a major defeat ShinRa. Most of it is thinly veiled references to a favourite cry of the anti-Pacifican hordes of the time, namely 'mod bias!!!!!1111!1!!1'.

So we should simply ignore the fact that your major opposition of time just happened to lost a large portion of it's privileges around about the time the war was fought. I feel we should look into it a bit more.

The apologies, well we can argue that til we are both blue in the face, but we won't change each other opinion.

It’s more the fact your alliance bent to the will of another in giving the apologies than the apologies themselves, and quite frankly I don’t buy that whole thing about Ivan losing the war individually, the NPO had made wars on more than one occasion against entire alliances based upon the actions of one or a small number of individuals and then chosen that it’s the entire alliance as a whole who has lost so why should the outcome of GW1 be any different.

After all, Chris Kaos was the reason you attempted to wipe out GATO but you didn’t bother to declare war upon him alone.

You will say that because it was a requirement of peace that it is a sign of major defeat. I will say that we gave up nothing of value, and was done simply to end the stalemate. Repeat until satisfied.

I'm also focusing on the fact that later on Ivan and your alliance seems to have attempted to rewrite history in their favor here as well as the actual war. After all, Ivan would have no reason to go back and state he lost it individually if this was a clear win or stalemate for the NPO.

However, back then, nukes, and nuke rogues, were a much bigger deal.

And as it was appropriate of the time we should still regard this as being a big deal when looking at this war in retrospect. At least that's my opinion on this anyway.

[WorldConqueror]

So we should simply ignore the fact that your major opposition of time just happened to lost a large portion of it's privileges around about the time the war was fought. I feel we should look into it a bit more.

It’s more the fact your alliance bent to the will of another in giving the apologies than the apologies themselves, and quite frankly I don’t buy that whole thing about Ivan losing the war individually, the NPO had made wars on more than one occasion against entire alliances based upon the actions of one or a small number of individuals and then chosen that it’s the entire alliance as a whole who has lost so why should the outcome of GW1 be any different.

After all, Chris Kaos was the reason you attempted to wipe out GATO but you didn’t bother to declare war upon him alone.

I'm also focusing on the fact that later on Ivan and your alliance seems to have attempted to rewrite history in their favor here as well as the actual war. After all, Ivan would have no reason to go back and state he lost it individually if this was a clear win or stalemate for the NPO.

And as it was appropriate of the time we should still regard this as being a big deal when looking at this war in retrospect. At least that's my opinion on this anyway.

Ok, go and take it up with the mods. I dare you

Where did I say anything about Ivan losing the war individually? Like I said, we can argue back and forth about the apologies all day. You say we bent to their will. I say we did a cost-benefit analysis, and figured it was better to give up a tiny bit of pride and apologise, thereby allowing us to get back into growing, which the stats of that time show we did exceedingly well after peace. Continued war benefitted nobody.

We present our side, and we are rewriting history. You present your side, and it's the Truth, which nobody can refute or deny. Gotcha.

You completely miss my point about nukes, I don't even know what your reply is supposed to mean. My point was that Tyga first strike nuking was a much MUCH bigger no-no back then than it is now.

Edited August 24, 2009 by WorldConqueror

[ShinRa]

If you want proof of a link, can I just post the treaty thread? That shows theres a link between them. Stupid question gets a stupid answer.

So you can prove there’s a link between two people involved in the Karma War, and in turn that proves a mass conspiracy to take down the entire Order. Are you sure about that.

Ah, pointing out spelling mistakes, the refuge of those that have no argument. I expected better from such a seasoned anti-Order troll like you, ShinRa.

Look, if it gets to the point where I’m having to point out errors then you should put some more effort into your posts, that’s all.

Sure do. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=66352 If that's not what you want, be more specific.

Thanks, I’ll read in a minute.

Ok, go and take it up with the mods. I dare you

The ones of that time or the ones now.

Where did I say anything about Ivan losing the war individually?

I’ve yet to see a thread involving this war over the past couple of years which does not have at least one NPO member stating that Ivan lost it individually.

Like I said, we can argue back and forth about the apologies all day. You say we bent to their will.

I say we did a cost-benefit analysis, and figured it was better to give up a tiny bit of pride and apologise, thereby allowing us to get back into growing, which the stats of that time show we did exceedingly well after peace.

Continued war benefitted nobody.

We present our side, and we are rewriting history. You present your side, and it's the Truth, which nobody can refute or deny. Gotcha.

Can you prove that? The Order as a whole is infamous for trying to rewrite it’s own history, I’m just concerned about people getting their facts straight. The actual writing depends upon the person themselves.

You completely miss my point about nukes, I don't even know what your reply is supposed to mean. My point was that Tyga first strike nuking was a much MUCH bigger no-no back then than it is now.

I’m sure that there are one or two RL comparisons to make here, but what I’m saying is that simply because it is less of an issue today doesn’t mean that we should regard it as being any less major an event or action in retrospect.

[WorldConqueror]

So you can prove there’s a link between two people involved in the Karma War, and in turn that proves a mass conspiracy to take down the entire Order. Are you sure about that.

I answered your question. You asked if I could prove a link between Archon and Bigwoody. I said I could give you a link to the treaty announcement. That proves a link. If you had said, "can you prove that Archon and Bigwoody were planning to orchestrate a war to take down Pacifica", then my answer would have been entirely inadequate. But you didn't, so it wasn't. Didn't you wonder why I was saying "stupid questions get stupid answers" and "be more specific"?

Look, if it gets to the point where I’m having to point out errors then you should put some more effort into your posts, that’s all.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha. Nice try. If I was a normal OWF idiot, then maybe this would be true. But you skipped round the substance of my post and pointed out 2 (that's right, 2!!!) spelling mistakes. And you say I should put more effort in. >_>

The ones of that time or the ones now.

All of the above? I don't know, and don't care. You are the one that wants to investigate it. I just know that historically mods dont take kindly to people calling them biased.

I’ve yet to see a thread involving this war over the past couple of years which does not have at least one NPO member stating that Ivan lost it individually.

Well good for you. You are talking to me now, so when I say that Ivan lost the war individually, you can use that defence. In this context, your next quote is pretty funny.

Can you prove that? The Order as a whole is infamous for trying to rewrite it’s own history, I’m just concerned about people getting their facts straight. The actual writing depends upon the person themselves.

Prove what? That it was more beneficial for everyone that peace be declared? I don't think that point is debatable, really...

I’m sure that there are one or two RL comparisons to make here, but what I’m saying is that simply because it is less of an issue today doesn’t mean that we should regard it as being any less major an event or action in retrospect.

RL comparisons? Really? You aren't going to take the thread there, are you? Anyway, I think you think I'm making the opposite point to the one I was making. I am saying that Tyga had to be let go because the Orders would have been complete pariahs, rather than outcasts after GPW if the NpO emperor was surrounded by the stigma of first strike nuking and instigating a global nuclear conflict. Do you understand what I am saying now?

EDIT: And to extrapolate on this point a bit; do you think there would have been a Think of the Children Pact if Tyga remained Emperor? Do you think the League would not have nuked in GWII?

Edited August 24, 2009 by WorldConqueror

[Delta1212]

And I thought we'd finished our forum war. We did not abandon TORN. We were not going to abandon TORN. We approached Archon about ending the war before talking to TORN, yes, but any deal that got us out of the war was always going to include TORN, or else we wouldn't have taken it and stayed in. But of course Archon used this info to convince Bigwoody that we were going to leave them hanging, and he freaked out and instead of coming and checking if any of it was true, he ran around telling everyone that we had betrayed him. If I was one of those people prone to believing conspiracy theories, I'd be very interested in the start of this war. Why? Well TORN brought us the info about OV spying, TORN was pushing to go to war, then Archon used a mistake on our part to give Bigwoody an excuse to get out of the war and leave us out to dry, which he then used (and almost succeeded) in an attempt to get all our allies to forsake us. And who just happened to have a MDoAP? TORN and MK. Now, my leadership has assured me that it wasn't all a setup by Bigwoody and Archon, but I still have my doubts. It was just all so...convenient.

I think you missed my point which was that it's very likely that the whole situation arose as a result of "acting before thinking" on the part of NPO which was interpreted as something else and kicked off a chain of events that ripped your side to shreds before the war had even really started, rather than NPO starting out trying to trample their allies in their effort to escape.

[shahenshah]

75% alliance in PM? vs 17/18 alliances? That is indeed staggering of historical proportions.

[Master-Debater]

I would be intrested in learning what the problems in the Karma camp were in the lead up to that war?

I know one of the sticking points for some people was “it’s not our fight”. There were people who were saying that OV getting hit had nothing to do with alliance X so why should we fight? It’s a stupid line IMO because once your allies and friends get attacked you need to defend them.

Another major argument was so many people I talked to wanted a piece of NPO but couldn’t get it. People spent more time worrying about getting a shot at NPO rather than just getting ready to hit the alliance who became available first. People were looking to find a way to chain treaties to get at the NPO. That hate of NPO was so strong that it actually endangered the war effort for Karma.

There were actually quite a few alliances on the fence at the time that the war started. If NPO had handled it differently instead of the “typical NPO way”, as so many say they did, then they quite possibly could have isolated and destroyed the alliances fighting at the outbreak. When TORN wound up posting that NPO left them hanging and word spread around some back channels that pushed many of the mid range alliances over the edge to fight on the KARMA side. At the start of the war things were much better for NPO than I think even they realized.

Even once the war began KARMA was very torn as well. Because so many people wanted at NPO the discussion constantly was about what to have NPO surrender with. After a point it became obvious to many that NPO would lose so the focus turned from fighting individual fronts to how should NPO surrender. That was always a major sticking point for some because some alliances fighting with Karma still liked NPO or had treaties with them. Make no mistake; Karma was by no means a unified bloc of alliances. It was constantly in danger of falling apart until the final minute when the surrenders started and were able to leave the war or chose to continue to fight.

[WalkerNinja]

As for TORN causing OUT to be neutral (or Hegemonized), this premise reflects a fundamental lack of understanding about how OUT works. First off, it's never really been been used as written. For it's articles to activate, a request from the embattled party has to be issued, and everyone that refuses the request is required to remain completely neutral in that conflict. In reality, a request is almost never made, and it largely functions as the Neo-Moldavi Doctrine (but limited to the Orange Sphere). That is to say, if we want in, we'll come in; if we don't, we won't. The only thing that will make you persona non grada is attacking another Orange alliance (in any way shape or form) whether they're a signatory or not (see GLOF/TORN war).

------

Was NPO blind to the coming Karma War?

I think so. It seems pretty clear by the admissions made by various Karma leaders that the entire thing had been set up for months as a sort of ambush. The key to making an ambush work is that the ambush-ee is unaware of the existence of the ambush. OV was a goat that they found and talked into being tied to a post in a box canyon after NPO already had their eye on them. Once NPO walked into the box canyon, it was all over.

------

Does NPO kill it's own allies?

This was a matter that I really didn't go into in my essay on Interalliance Political Evolution, but I probably should have.

In short, yes. But as always, there are reasons. Let me begin by quoting my own essay:

Initially flouted by the established Digiterran powers (it is recorded that he offered an MDP to the ODN, and that his offer was subsequently rejected in favor of the Legion), the Pacifican Emperor looked to a more recent breed of foreign immigrants to create a grand coalition. Since the original Alien invasion, subsequent migrations had been occurring from Greater Digiterra to Planet Bob. In many ways, these immigrants were similar to their predecessors, but most lacked the focus on political intrigue.

LUE may be regarded as the first of these immigrants. Their interest laid in the exploration and mastery of the Admin's Digiterra. They came from a culture that had immigrated and mastered many corners of Digiterra and subsequently written manuals on how to repeat their results. Others followed their example.

First employed as mercenary recruits by Pacifica in the First Great War, the GOONS called upon their dark home known for its sophomoric (and occasionally vile) humor. The Order of the Paradox emerged also with minds full of strategy and dedicated to another Admin known as "PI." The Federation of Armed Nations came like a plague from a war-torn and recklessly armed corner of Greater Digiterra.

Together with the New Polar Order, the Pacific gradually assembled powers new and old into a tight bond of unity that would activate in the case of either aggression or defense. Taken in its context, the founding of the World Unity Treaty is astounding. In sublimating the fiercely independent revolutionary culture of the New Pacific Order, Dilber was able to form a concrete set of allies that would serve to secure the peace, strength, and prosperity of the Order for many months to come. The cultural tolerance, and collective unity of the World Unity Treaty would enable it to dominate the world around it.

The "New Immigrants" were vastly different than the original immigration (of which Pacifica was a part). They were not political theorists with established cultures, ideological power brokers, and diplomatic wonder workers. In large part they were the dawn of the new age of "lulz" alliances. GOONS, TOP, FAN, \m/, [m], to some extent (at least as compared to ODN/Legion/NPO/NpO), all of them can be classified as "lulz" because they do not look at the game in the same was as the first immigrants. They were assembled under Pacifica's banner primarily for the purpose of strengthening Pacifica and settling her scores. This is the "meat shield" phenomena.

Given the nature of the alliances in question, it was only a matter of time before they violated NPO's "srs bzness" code of conduct and thus invited destruction (really, of the aforementioned allies, only TOP fully embraced the srs bzness model of interalliance politics) as a result of an unwritten code that they did not agree with and could never fully understand.

At it's core, it is a matter of cultural incompatibility.

NPO originally sublimated its cultural distinctiveness in order to accumulate allies that would help it achieve it's ends. In the after math of Great War III, its ends having been achieved, there was no longer any reason to continue sublimating its cultural distinctiveness. Cultural incompatibility spiked, and in the absence of external drama, internal drama monopolized the minds of both the Pacificans and their allies.

This resulted in an extended period of internal bloc-purges which initiated a magnification of their reputation as the masters of this world. Treaties with the NPO proliferated because though it was scant protection against destruction, it was the only real protection available. Thus the NPO came full circle. Where first the architect of the Age of Unity (Dilber) endeavored to consolidate power through treaties, ultimately the steward of the Age of Unity (Moo) allowed the power to be dispersed by the same means (more treaties).

The Moldavi Rebellion (as I mentioned in my original essay) was a reaction to this trend, and may have served keep Pacifica from completing the cycle of destruction if it had been successful. I daresay that there would have been a rapid contraction in NPO's military obligations, and probably a shift in where those obligations were focused. While this doubtlessly would have been a perilous time for the Order, it may have proven to be more sustainable in the long term.

But we've wandered far enough afield now...

[Dr. Dan]

Was NPO blind to the coming Karma War?

I think so. It seems pretty clear by the admissions made by various Karma leaders that the entire thing had been set up for months as a sort of ambush. The key to making an ambush work is that the ambush-ee is unaware of the existence of the ambush. OV was a goat that they found and talked into being tied to a post in a box canyon after NPO already had their eye on them. Once NPO walked into the box canyon, it was all over.

Does it still count as blindness if they were told the box was there?  They knew it would happen and went through with it anyways.  The reasoning I was given was a suddenly new born idealism that spying should be punished rather than adhering to any sense of pragmatism what-so-ever.  It's not like they were never pragmatic before.  What changed? 

Imo, it was still a sense of pragmatism in trying to make one last ditch effort before the storm. 

[Master-Debater]

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Was NPO blind to the coming Karma War?

I think so. It seems pretty clear by the admissions made by various Karma leaders that the entire thing had been set up for months as a sort of ambush. The key to making an ambush work is that the ambush-ee is unaware of the existence of the ambush. OV was a goat that they found and talked into being tied to a post in a box canyon after NPO already had their eye on them. Once NPO walked into the box canyon, it was all over.

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This is debatable by many. Yes, there were quite a few alliances already planning the war against the hegemony, and NPO in particular, but there also were a lot of alliances on the fence. Sparta is probably the best known example of an alliance who was planning for the onset of the war and trying to shore up their base of support and gain new allies. Everyone could tell what was coming but it seemed like no one was willing to act on it. It took until OV got a bullet to the head for people to be shocked enough to react to what was going on. To me it seemed like so many were shell shocked to see opposition to NPO and the Hegemony after so long of there being none.

NPO possibly was in that same basket of people surprised by the amount of opposition. It had started with VOX but slowly grew to a point where sanctioned alliances, as well as quite a few non sanctioned but respected alliances, were openly critical of NPO, something that hadn’t been seen in a long time. NPO quite possibly have believed that it would only be those alliances fighting, not realizing the huge wave of hate that had built up over time. It also is quite possible that they were believing their own propaganda that said they couldn’t lose and had never lost a war. This could have caused them to charge in thinking they were invincible.

Edit: Probably=/= Possibly (Need caffine to think >.>)

Edited August 24, 2009 by Master-Debater