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Apologies for the delay in replying (and I'll admit that I skipped the last 10 pages of this), anyway,

Because the RIA member wasn't a real RIA member, and lawless was made buy two player who got tech raided by us and wanted to get back at us. As for the other two I really don't care since I don't know who they are. Plus they didn't go ahead on the OWF

and make a declaration like RAD did.

And, pray tell, how did they figure out that the RIA member was a ghost? Did they, perhaps just possibly, contact RIA to find out what the story was? You know, use some of that old-fashioned diplomacy lark you hear so much of these days?

RAD's declaration had absolutely nothing to do with NSO. Unless NSO claim that they are any of these:

2) The Entirety of the Open World Forum, watch yourself.

1) The Band Rush.

5) A certain female player of CN.

7) The American Auto Industry.

3) The Housing Market.

3) Cancer. "THE WAR ON CANCER WILL BE WON WITH MONEY!"

5) Nicaragua, because we know we can take them.

What followed was clearly a joke... as a bit of that diplomacy they had previously used with RIA would have found out for them (or a drop of common sense). Of course, its possible that NSO doesn't have a sense of humour (which would ironically, make this a hilarious CB), but Heft has told me otherwise, so again, I'm scratching my head as to they why behind this.

Perhaps you could point out where any of those alliances posted an open declaration of war which included recognition that they would be responsible for their actions and perhaps you could follow that up with acknowledgement from the attacking nation, who happens to be government. Otherwise it is apples and oranges and such comparisons are really just ridiculous.

See above comment for the majority of my reply to this post. In fact, my reply to kev there pretty much answers all of that. Apples and oranges are still fruit mate, its like comparing Toyotas and Fords. This here is comparing tech raids... ;)

Why don't you point out the announcements made by all those alliances similiar to that of RAD? Also why don't you point out the increasing tensions over time with all of those alliances and NSO? You can't because you won't find either so why don't you just cease trying to force NSO into a little box so that they have to act the exact same way to each situation instead of deciding for themselves just like every other sovereign alliance.

That is what you are trying to do, you realize that of course, right?

Edit: Aww hell, this is what I get for stepping away for a few. A couple pages past the point I was so that I end up repeating that which others have already said.

See the part in bold? If that's the CB that's one thing... it's very much "I don't like you, now die.", but if that is the case NSO should have at least have the courage to come out and say exactly that instead of cowering behind this incredibly dodgy CB.

No, its not. Unless of course you're implying that I'm saying NSO should try diplomacy first in every instance, and then yes, I suppose you could argue that is what I'm saying... This became a bad thing when by the way?

That said, I reckon I've made my point (whether you agree with me or not I really couldn't care...) so I'll take my leave of this thread.

RAD, give 'em hell. Funny is a plus as always, though I reckon ye delivered on that with the other thread, and in this one too. :P

NSO, chill out, you'll give yourself an ulcer... and good luck? (though I sincerely doubt you'll need it... this is a good old-fashioned curb-stomping - minus the reps I'll grant you.)

Edited by Veneke
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I can't speak for the rest of Frostbite, but I will say that Polaris has never (yet) gone to war in support of NSO.
I don't recall ever using the weight of our allies to threaten anyone. I do recall doing the exact opposite on more than one occasion. Are you sure you didn't just dream all of this?

Of all the people to make an asinine "my nation is better than yours" comment towards, Ivan Moldavi is clearly one of the worst choices. You've been around long enough and despised him and anything he touches long enough to understand how little material strength is valued within Pierconium.

I dont think anyone really takes what Starfox has to say on this subject all too seriously when it comes to the truthful nature of his statements. I know I personally have not been all that happy with some of the stunts NSO pulls but at the same time they are not just sitting back, building nations and waiting to be bored out of existence.

NSO was there for us though in the last war and that deserves my respect and in that essence I would say that makes them good allies. That doesn't mean every action of the NSO is Frostbite sponsored. They ARE their own sovereign alliance. Just because folks dont see statements on all of NSO's actions from the other signatories of Frostbite that it can be assumed that the other signatories give flat approval for everything NSO does and that goes the same for any actions of any other signatory in Frostbite. That is why there are Optional clauses in its writing. That would be how I would interpret it, you would need an official statement on that though for any official statement on that.

Basically, people like starfox who try and lump this all together into a Frostbite action are doing that because they have an axe to grind with the Imperators. It's ok, he is just angry that post-vox he really has no significance at all as compared to how much he had when he was a leader of Vox. His star is falling, not rising.

And, pray tell, how did they figure out that the RIA member was a ghost? Did they, perhaps just possibly, contact RIA to find out what the story was? You know, use some of that old-fashioned diplomacy lark you hear so much of these days?

RAD's declaration had absolutely nothing to do with NSO. Unless NSO claim that they are any of these:

2) The Entirety of the Open World Forum, watch yourself.

1) The Band Rush.

5) A certain female player of CN.

7) The American Auto Industry.

3) The Housing Market.

3) Cancer. "THE WAR ON CANCER WILL BE WON WITH MONEY!"

5) Nicaragua, because we know we can take them.

What followed was clearly a joke... as a bit of that diplomacy they had previously used with RIA would have found out for them (or a drop of common sense). Of course, its possible that NSO doesn't have a sense of humour (which would ironically, make this a hilarious CB), but Heft has told me otherwise, so again, I'm scratching my head as to they why behind this.

See the part in bold? If that's the CB that's one thing... it's very much "I don't like you, now die.", but if that is the case NSO should have at least have the courage to come out and say exactly that instead of cowering behind this incredibly dodgy CB.

No, its not. Unless of course you're implying that I'm saying NSO should try diplomacy first in every instance, and then yes, I suppose you could argue that is what I'm saying... This became a bad thing when by the way?

That said, I reckon I've made my point (whether you agree with me or not I really couldn't care...) so I'll take my leave of this thread.

RAD, give 'em hell. Funny is a plus as always, though I reckon ye delivered on that with the other thread, and in this one too. :P

NSO, chill out, you'll give yourself an ulcer... and good luck? (though I sincerely doubt you'll need it... this is a good old-fashioned curb-stomping - minus the reps I'll grant you.)

The entirety of the OWF does technically include NSO. I don't know how you could say otherwise. Yes, it is a technicality but its not the first time that such has been used.

Now why are you requiring that NSO use the growing tensions as a CB? Did Karma use the growing tensions with NPO as part of its CB? No they used the action of attacking OV as their CB. Pretty similiar situation, sorry if you don't like it, but that precedent is pretty obvious especially considering the Reps put on NPO were about prior actions just as much if not more then about the attacks on OV.

Once again though, I think you misrepresent NSO. Their idea of fun is different then that of RAD. Those two opposite ideologies clashed in this incident and we have a war now because of it. This world has a wide range of alliance ideologies and they are all relevant. Just because you find yourself more in line with the RAD ideology doesn't mean it is inherently the more proper one. There is no such thing as a "proper" one.

Edited by HeinousOne
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RAD, give 'em hell. Funny is a plus as always, though I reckon ye delivered on that with the other thread, and in this one too. :P

NSO, chill out, you'll give yourself an ulcer... and good luck? (though I sincerely doubt you'll need it... this is a good old-fashioned curb-stomping - minus the reps I'll grant you.)

Most people have accepted that our response was within the boundaries of legitimacy, even if it wasn't a tact they would themselves take. Trying to argue otherwise this late is a bit silly.

Basically, people like starfox who try and lump this all together into a Frostbite action are doing that because they have an axe to grind with the Imperators. It's ok, he is just angry that post-vox he really has no significance at all as compared to how much he had when he was a leader of Vox. His star is falling, not rising.

Would you say it is without wings?

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Do you think that's an appropriate statement to make? Are you unaware of the fact that NSO has allies, and that they absolutely won't be "getting rolled", because we're willing to fight with them? Do you wish for STA, NpO and tLC to "get rolled" as well? Are you threatening to "roll" NSO or are you just running your mouth on the OWF because it makes you feel better about yourself? Are you aware that one of your closest allies is amongst those NSO allies?

I think it's a mighty fine statement to make. It's my opinion. I'm well aware of what treaties MK holds and NSO holds. Nothing wrong with wishful thinking. :v:

Also, potato, go be useless somewhere else, frenchie. :v:

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Well that's pretty incoherent. Are you saying we're NPO 2.0? Why would you have a problem with that when MHA held a treaty with NPO for quite a while?

And MHA still does hold a treaty with the NPO, and to my knowledge, they're quite happy with it.

Also, for the record, this guy is one of the MHA's leaders, so I suggest you take him very seriously.

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And MHA still does hold a treaty with the NPO, and to my knowledge, they're quite happy with it.

Also, for the record, this guy is one of the MHA's leaders, so I suggest you take him very seriously.

Actually, I think MHA were the lucky recipients of a nice new shiny "get out of jail free" pass courtesy of Karma in that their treaty with the NPO was considered Null and Void due to NPO agreeing to such when they signed the peace treaty.

So MHA and NPO do not have a treaty together anymore.

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The fact that you consider the worth of the person to only stem from physical goods says everything that needs to be said about your personality. Perhaps rather than making snide comments directed at the Dark Lord you should spend your leisure time becoming active in your alliance and contributing to the well being of the whole?

I don't recall ever stating physical goods is all that matters. Really, if you knew who you were talking to you wouldn't have tried that argument on me. Besides, I'm essentially retired, so I'm going to pass on your advice.

I don't recall ever using the weight of our allies to threaten anyone. I do recall doing the exact opposite on more than one occasion. Are you sure you didn't just dream all of this?

Of all the people to make an asinine "my nation is better than yours" comment towards, Ivan Moldavi is clearly one of the worst choices. You've been around long enough and despised him and anything he touches long enough to understand how little material strength is valued within Pierconium.

Did I say Heft throws his allies weight around? No. I didn't say you. The person I was talking about knows exactly what I meant. You're just remembered as the guy who didn't care that his member was raiding me and attempting to extort me.

And I understand he doesn't care about nation strength, but is it really so hard to build? There is no point to sitting at 4k NS when you could easily have a 30-40k nation. You are bringing tears to the eyes of Gramlins across Bob.

Whether my alliance mates, or anyone else for that matter believes me, I have stood along with Starfox, I consider him a friend of mine (if he considers me a friend of his by this point is debatable), he is not a coward and he is not a whiner.

He doesn't need me to defend him, I know, but I just feel better putting this out there.

Thanks for the kind words, NW. Yes, you're still a friend, why would you not be?

I dont think anyone really takes what Starfox has to say on this subject all too seriously when it comes to the truthful nature of his statements. I know I personally have not been all that happy with some of the stunts NSO pulls but at the same time they are not just sitting back, building nations and waiting to be bored out of existence.

NSO was there for us though in the last war and that deserves my respect and in that essence I would say that makes them good allies. That doesn't mean every action of the NSO is Frostbite sponsored. They ARE their own sovereign alliance. Just because folks dont see statements on all of NSO's actions from the other signatories of Frostbite that it can be assumed that the other signatories give flat approval for everything NSO does and that goes the same for any actions of any other signatory in Frostbite. That is why there are Optional clauses in its writing. That would be how I would interpret it, you would need an official statement on that though for any official statement on that.

Basically, people like starfox who try and lump this all together into a Frostbite action are doing that because they have an axe to grind with the Imperators. It's ok, he is just angry that post-vox he really has no significance at all as compared to how much he had when he was a leader of Vox. His star is falling, not rising.

If you don't agree with their actions, you sure give them a large leash to run around with before reigning them in. I personally wouldn't want to babysit my allies.

As for the last statement, why would I be angry that my star is falling? I've clearly put no effort in attempting to become government in IAA or back when I was in Valhalla. I am completely fine with not being a big deal. If I had a problem with it, don't you think I would try and become a leader somewhere? Nice try, though. It was about .3% better than a "You're irrelevant."

Still trying to shake those Pacifican roots?

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And MHA still does hold a treaty with the NPO, and to my knowledge, they're quite happy with it.

Also, for the record, this guy is one of the MHA's leaders, so I suggest you take him very seriously.

Someone failed to pay attention to NPO's surrender terms obviously.

"VII. The New Pacific Order will immediately cancel and dissolve all treaties with military clauses. The New Pacific Order will not sign any new treaties without the approval of the victorious coalition until these terms end. All cancellation clauses are considered waived."

I expected better from you RV, if your gonna keep your MHA witch hunt going please at least get your facts right next time :v:

Edited by scutterbug
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And MHA still does hold a treaty with the NPO, and to my knowledge, they're quite happy with it.

Nope, as per the surrender of NPO.

VII. The New Pacific Order will immediately cancel and dissolve all treaties with military clauses. The New Pacific Order will not sign any new treaties without the approval of the victorious coalition until these terms end. All cancellation clauses are considered waived.

EDIT: Scutter beat me to it :P

Edited by king cjc
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Actually, I think MHA were the lucky recipients of a nice new shiny "get out of jail free" pass courtesy of Karma in that their treaty with the NPO was considered Null and Void due to NPO agreeing to such when they signed the peace treaty.

So MHA and NPO do not have a treaty together anymore.

Well, I'm glad Karma came to rescue MHA from that horrible treaty with the New Pacific Order. Someone had to, right? I mean, its not like they could have canceled it on their own. That would have required some sort of resolve or something. Oh well, not that it matters any. At least they can now let the whole world know that they really did hate the NPO, despite having that treaty up until Karma got rid of it.

I will give them credit for honoring it though. It was hard, and by that I mean it wasn't easy, but MHA took on the GDI despite the impossible odds. So now you know that a treaty with them means something.

I expected better from you RV, if your gonna keep your MHA witch hunt going please at least get your facts right next time :v:

Doesn't change the fact you supported NPO for over two years, and never did cancel the treaty of your own volition. So your analogy isn't that great, since you never did hate the NPO. So where's your love for the Sith?

Edited by Rebel Virginia
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Most people have accepted that our response was within the boundaries of legitimacy, even if it wasn't a tact they would themselves take. Trying to argue otherwise this late is a bit silly.

Are you seriously implying that he didn't show up in time to make an argument, and thus is incorrect?

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If you don't agree with their actions, you sure give them a large leash to run around with before reigning them in. I personally wouldn't want to babysit my allies.

As for the last statement, why would I be angry that my star is falling? I've clearly put no effort in attempting to become government in IAA or back when I was in Valhalla. I am completely fine with not being a big deal. If I had a problem with it, don't you think I would try and become a leader somewhere? Nice try, though. It was about .3% better than a "You're irrelevant."

Still trying to shake those Pacifican roots?

I am sorry you feel the need to put your allies on a leash at all. I sure wouldn't want to feel like one of our allies wanted to put a leash on us. I think allies should allow their allies to be themselves. If that natural existence pushes two alliances apart to the point that a treaty no longer is viable then so be it but we all saw with NPO how valuable a forced treaty is. Might I point out again the Optional clauses in Frostbite? I am guessing you overlooked that, purposefully maybe.

As far as the comments of response back towards me. It is good to see you are ok with stepping out of the limelight because it would be near impossible to regain the spotlight that you guys at the top of Vox were able to enjoy. You were the superstars of CN for that time. My comments in regards to that were not meant solely as an insult but merely a statement upon the positions of certain individuals today as compared to back then. I do not think you are irrelevant, nor will you ever be irrelevant. You will always be a founder of Vox.

As far as me shaking off my old Pacifican roots? Why would I do that? It was my first alliance and I learned a whole hell of a lot there. There is a lot of good within the NPO. What I shook off was the leadership as I felt at the time it was definately not something I could agree with nor could I ever agree with again as I don't see any major changes or overhauls going on over there. So to close, I realize that was your attempt to demonize me due to my past but I have never been one to run from or deny it. Events happened that led me to realize I could not stay there anymore but there is no need for me to deny my past.

Well, I'm glad Karma came to rescue MHA from that horrible treaty with the New Pacific Order. Someone had to, right? I mean, its not like they could have canceled it on their own. That would have required some sort of resolve or something. Oh well, not that it matters any. At least they can now let the whole world know that they really did hate the NPO, despite having that treaty up until Karma got rid of it.

I will give them credit for honoring it though. It was hard, and by that I mean it wasn't easy, but MHA took on the GDI despite the impossible odds. So now you know that a treaty with them means something.

Well, to be fair, I dont think either NPO or MHA cared to keep that treaty any longer but the year long cancellation clause was a serious hinderence to both of them. I have not seen NPO raise a stink about how the treaty was dissolved so I think it was probably for the best. Enough about MHA and NPO though, neither of them has anything to do with this.

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Well, to be fair, I dont think either NPO or MHA cared to keep that treaty any longer but the year long cancellation clause was a serious hinderence to both of them. I have not seen NPO raise a stink about how the treaty was dissolved so I think it was probably for the best. Enough about MHA and NPO though, neither of them has anything to do with this.

They could have just declared the cancellation clause void. Sure, it wouldn't have been a popular move, but that's what spines are for. Or they could have played it safe and waited a year.

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They could have just declared the cancellation clause void. Sure, it wouldn't have been a popular move, but that's what spines are for. Or they could have played it safe and waited a year.

This is really the wrong place to mention all this in. This is a thread about NSO and RAD, not how you think MHA should behave.

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Well, I'm glad Karma came to rescue MHA from that horrible treaty with the New Pacific Order. Someone had to, right? I mean, its not like they could have canceled it on their own. That would have required some sort of resolve or something. Oh well, not that it matters any. At least they can now let the whole world know that they really did hate the NPO, despite having that treaty up until Karma got rid of it.

I will give them credit for honoring it though. It was hard, and by that I mean it wasn't easy, but MHA took on the GDI despite the impossible odds. So now you know that a treaty with them means something.

Doesn't change the fact you supported NPO for over two years, and never did cancel the treaty of your own volition. So your analogy isn't that great, since you never did hate the NPO. So where's your love for the Sith?

They could have just declared the cancellation clause void. Sure, it wouldn't have been a popular move, but that's what spines are for. Or they could have played it safe and waited a year.

Its ironic the great and masterful RV all against alliances supposedly dictating how foreign policy should he handled. Yet there you go making a statement that implies just that! Come on RV twice in one night your slipping up, i really expect better.

Edit:

In more related matters, i still hope RAD stick it to the Sith!

Edited by scutterbug
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This is really the wrong place to mention all this in. This is a thread about NSO and RAD, not how you think MHA should behave.

The precedent has already been set that anytime anyone voices opinions, their alliances' past misdeeds, real or imagined, are always dragged out for public discussion.

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Actually, I think MHA were the lucky recipients of a nice new shiny "get out of jail free" pass courtesy of Karma in that their treaty with the NPO was considered Null and Void due to NPO agreeing to such when they signed the peace treaty.

So MHA and NPO do not have a treaty together anymore.

True, but if you think it was a "get out of jail free card" you are very much mistaken. Perhaps if you elect to educate yourself on MHA's position via private channels, (ooc)I shall await your query in #MHA.(/ooc) We are still an open and democratic alliance that favors diplomacy over conflict and defence over aggression.

I don't know about you, but if someone locks a door on me, it means I am unable to open it; it does not signal a reluctance to. NPO accepted their surrender and thus all of their treaties - not just the MHA treaty - was dissolved. If you want to hand out "get out of jail free cards" I hope you have an ample supply.

Besides, this topic is about a RAD-NSO war, not MHA Foreign Policy.

Edit: Typo

Edited by Crushtania
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