I have a dream.

[Beauty]

Please can you show me an alliance, other than Echelon, that got terms that were among the harshest in CN history during this war, bear in mind some alliances have had to pay 7/8ths of their total tech out in reps, and some have had viceories for over a year.

Please... Can you show me an alliance other then GATO with a viceroy for over a year.

EDIT: I thought IRONs terms were pretty bad myself.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Rotavele

[Francesca]

Please can you show me an alliance, other than Echelon, that got terms that were among the harshest in CN history during this war, bear in mind some alliances have had to pay 7/8ths of their total tech out in reps, and some have had viceories for over a year.

NPO were offered very harsh terms, as I already explained.

[Starfox101]

I don't understand this. I'm hearing all these people talking about how NPO deserves peace, deserves light terms, and everytime, I just wonder, why?

What have they done to be let off easy? Destroy alliances left and right, impose viceroy's, force people to pay massive reps, and practice EZI and PZI for years?

They have the exact same government who did all this, and they remain unapologetic. You complain that Karma is just as bad...no. Karma is just doing what is right, and giving Pacifica everything they deserve.

I applaud Karma. Their war is just, and I hope they stick it out and continue this war, until Pacifica is crippled, so they may never rise again and rule the world with their brutal tactics.

TPF deserves destruction just as much, if not more. They've waged wars and destroyed multiple alliances over OOC stuff. That's about as bad as it gets.

Why do they deserve sympathy?

[Logan]

I wouldn't go out of my way to show someone compassion who couldn't do the same.

[The Eye]

IC topic -> World Affairs

[Ebony Wings]

So don't give them white peace. Give them terms, but don't give them terms like the ones presented by Moo in that thread a while back.

Also, even if we do get rolled, that doesn't make the morality of our actions any less admirable.

Put morality in one hand, and take a dump in the other. See which one fills up faster.

The victory of morality is pretty hollow when your alliance is reduced to ashes and cinders every couple of months just so that the people on top of the heap can stay there (supposedly) unopposed. It's also pretty hollow when you have to watch every single word that anybody within your alliance says just to keep your alliance from being rolled over something somebody said being taken out of context and used for a shady CB.

[Beauty]

I wouldn't go out of my way to show someone compassion who couldn't do the same.

Actually, NPO personally let me off freely for what i did do against them in the past. So i would consider that as compassion myself.

I don't understand this. I'm hearing all these people talking about how NPO deserves peace, deserves light terms, and everytime, I just wonder, why?

What have they done to be let off easy? Destroy alliances left and right, impose viceroy's, force people to pay massive reps, and practice EZI and PZI for years?

They have the exact same government who did all this, and they remain unapologetic. You complain that Karma is just as bad...no. Karma is just doing what is right, and giving Pacifica everything they deserve.

I applaud Karma. Their war is just, and I hope they stick it out and continue this war, until Pacifica is crippled, so they may never rise again and rule the world with their brutal tactics.

TPF deserves destruction just as much, if not more. They've waged wars and destroyed multiple alliances over OOC stuff. That's about as bad as it gets.

Why do they deserve sympathy?

Yeah, They were bad in the past. Lets do what they did! /sarcasm

Edited July 8, 2009 by Rotavele

[Kevin McDonald]

The level of terms offered are exactly what they should be. I'm not going to tell you there were too lenient, as clearly that would be ludicrous. However, for the evils that Echelon and NPO has perpetrated they are exactly where they should be. And just as no amount of bawwing could save innocent alliances from being rolled or extorted at Echelon/NPO's whim, no amount of bawwing will save Echelon/NPO from these DESERVED AND FAIR terms.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Kevin McDonald

[Lord Brendan]

But it's a moot point... Let's be honest, NPO ain't going to be political gold for a very long time, if ever. I doubt they'll get new allies, nor keep many old ones. They're the lepers of CN at this point... Nobody wants to touch them with a ten foot pole. Also note that post-GWI, the game was still expanding, so NPO was able to ally with several large new alliances. That's not really an option this time. When was the last time we had a good sized invasion alliance?

Well they still have an eternal MDoAP with MHA, don't they? At least they have one ally that will stick with them no matter what.

[Francesca]

I don't understand this. I'm hearing all these people talking about how NPO deserves peace, deserves light terms, and everytime, I just wonder, why?

What have they done to be let off easy? Destroy alliances left and right, impose viceroy's, force people to pay massive reps, and practice EZI and PZI for years?

As you know, I was Vox, and I am perfectly aware of NPO's sins. I'm not arguing that they were wonderful people, or that they deserve to be let off lightly. I'm arguing that by giving them reasonable terms, we will prevent a new Pacifica from arising, and that the standards that Pacifica set in place will be removed.

They have the exact same government who did all this, and they remain unapologetic. You complain that Karma is just as bad...no. Karma is just doing what is right, and giving Pacifica everything they deserve.

[Beauty]

Well they still have an eternal MDoAP with MHA, don't they? At least they have one ally that will stick with them no matter what.

Kay, I had to lol.

[MagicalTrevor]

Please... Can you show me an alliance other then GATO with a viceroy for over a year.

EDIT: I thought IRONs terms were pretty bad myself.

eh, ok, viceorys for more than 1 second are digusting anyway imo.

Re: IRONs terms, they have to average a very low amount of tech per member to pay them off when compared to all other major terms ever reached. If you stopped looking at the sheer volume, and started reading the actual data you'd be pleasently surprised by their terms.

NPO were offered very harsh terms, as I already explained.

Agree to disagree i guess

[Freelancer]

I don't understand this. I'm hearing all these people talking about how NPO deserves peace, deserves light terms, and everytime, I just wonder, why?

What have they done to be let off easy? Destroy alliances left and right, impose viceroy's, force people to pay massive reps, and practice EZI and PZI for years?

They have the exact same government who did all this, and they remain unapologetic. You complain that Karma is just as bad...no. Karma is just doing what is right, and giving Pacifica everything they deserve.

I applaud Karma. Their war is just, and I hope they stick it out and continue this war, until Pacifica is crippled, so they may never rise again and rule the world with their brutal tactics.

TPF deserves destruction just as much, if not more. They've waged wars and destroyed multiple alliances over OOC stuff. That's about as bad as it gets.

This ^^

I'd also like to throw in my 2 cents about Echelon & Caffeine who decided to shoot his mouth off to the wrong person a little over year ago and is now paying the price for that remark, Echelon as a whole, let’s not forget this Gem, to be honest the terms aren't that bad to previous terms we have seen given out, it’s not like there being forced to disband now are they? Or have an unwanted guest in their house with full oversight do they ?

[Bob Janova]

I'm arguing that by giving them reasonable terms, we will prevent a new Pacifica from arising, and that the standards that Pacifica set in place will be removed.

The issue with that is that there is precedent that it doesn't work with the NPO.

[Francesca]

Put morality in one hand, and take a dump in the other. See which one fills up faster.

The victory of morality is pretty hollow when your alliance is reduced to ashes and cinders every couple of months just so that the people on top of the heap can stay there (supposedly) unopposed. It's also pretty hollow when you have to watch every single word that anybody within your alliance says just to keep your alliance from being rolled over something somebody said being taken out of context and used for a shady CB.

Fight them when they attack you then, or take a pre-emptive strike. But take this opportunity, *now*, to change the way we (OOC) play CN. (OOC)

The level of terms offered are exactly what they should be. I'm not going to tell you there were too lenient, as clearly that would be ludicrous. However, for the evils that Echelon and NPO has perpetrated they are exactly where they should be. And just as no amount of bawwing could save innocent alliances from being rolled or extorted at Echelon/NPO's whim, no amount of bawwing will save Echelon/NPO from these DESERVED AND FAIR terms.

They may be deserved, but normal war simply cannot prevent EZI, harsh reps, Viceroys, etc etc. Therefore, we need to establish a precedent. I'm sorry, I know I keep repeating myself, but I need to get this through.

[Kevin McDonald]

They may be deserved, but normal war simply cannot prevent EZI, harsh reps, Viceroys, etc etc. Therefore, we need to establish a precedent. I'm sorry, I know I keep repeating myself, but I need to get this through.

Normal war cannot prevent that. I agree. So what, exactly, is your point then? Cuz IMO only harsh terms will prevent it. NPO (and any future NPO-type alliances) need to understand that ruling the world with impunity will eventually have harsh consequences.

[Francesca]

The issue with that is that there is precedent that it doesn't work with the NPO.

I'm not saying that Pacifica will necessarily reform, but I'm saying that the way that we handle terms for this war will influence the actions of alliances and other sides in the political situation in months, perhaps years, to come.

[Francesca]

Normal war cannot prevent that. I agree. So what, exactly, is your point then? Cuz IMO only harsh terms will prevent it. NPO (and any future NPO-type alliances) need to understand that ruling the world with impunity will eventually have harsh consequences.

War that is conducted in a moral manner will prevent it, perhaps.

[Beauty]

Heres my solution for everyone, Since they were bad in the past and like their evil and their like tyrants. Okay, we should just like totally be as bad as they are. Then we should like give them terms they cant afford. Then declare war and destroy them!

[Bob Janova]

normal war simply cannot prevent EZI, harsh reps, Viceroys, etc etc.

Actually it can. Remove the alliances which typically do such things from power, through normal war, and they will be ended. You can in fact see that in the current situation – none of the alliances in power are likely to do any of those things (with the possible exception of 'harsh reps', which are subjective), whatever happens with NPO. On the other hand, giving the alliances which typically do such things 'moral' terms, and letting them rebuild faster, might actually increase the chances of those things being done again in future, once those alliances regain power.

[Francesca]

Actually it can. Remove the alliances which typically do such things from power, through normal war, and they will be ended. You can in fact see that in the current situation – none of the alliances in power are likely to do any of those things (with the possible exception of 'harsh reps', which are subjective), whatever happens with NPO. On the other hand, giving the alliances which typically do such things 'moral' terms, and letting them rebuild faster, might actually increase the chances of those things being done again in future, once those alliances regain power.

Other alliances will simply take over and act in that way instead.

[Ebony Wings]

Fight them when they attack you then, or take a pre-emptive strike. But take this opportunity, *now*, to change the way we (OOC) play CN. (OOC)

I am taking the opportunity to change the world. I'm attempting to change the world by lobbying for the continuation of surrender terms designed to make an example out of the people who started this whole mess to begin with. If the alliances of the Hegemony are given light terms and allowed to rebuild in short order, it does nothing to deter the use of their tactics in the future. Only by crippling these alliances beyond the ability to return to prominence are we setting a proper example for future alliance leaders.

[Mathias]

The only bad thing Karma has done is spawn the creation of threads like this.

Heres my solution for everyone, Since they were bad in the past and like their evil and their like tyrants. Okay, we should just like totally be as bad as they are. Then we should like give them terms they cant afford. Then declare war and destroy them!

Your sarcasm is a true satire of Karma. You really showed them!

Edited July 8, 2009 by The Mathias

[Freelancer]

Other alliances will simply take over and act in that way instead.

Then guess what will happen ? Spring Cleaning 2010, with a diffrent group on here screaming, what did we do to deserve such harsh terms.

[Francesca]

I am taking the opportunity to change the world. I'm attempting to change the world by lobbying for the continuation of surrender terms designed to make an example out of the people who started this whole mess to begin with. If the alliances of the Hegemony are given light terms and allowed to rebuild in short order, it does nothing to deter the use of their tactics in the future. Only by crippling these alliances beyond the ability to return to prominence are we setting a proper example for future alliance leaders.

Rather, set an example for people who will decide surrender terms in future.