New Pacific Order Reps Race

[James Wilson]

After the crap they tried to pull on IRON (thank you Citadel for having the class to stop them), did you expect better from RoK? This time they don't even have the "we were attacked" excuse. It's all in the name of justice! ...Except the restitution money for NPO's crimes will end up in RoK's pockets, not in those of NPO's victims.

I understand that NPO is gonna get harsh terms. Fine. No, that doesn't make you OMG AS BAD AS NPO, which I know you'll accuse me of saying. But you're setting whole new precedents here, things even NPO never did. Not to mention that, as always, the restitution will wind up in the pockets of opportunists, not in the pockets of those who have a valid claim to restitution. RoK, hopefully your comrades in this fight are as classy as those in your fight against IRON.

-Bama

And we have every right to do that.

"To the victor comes the spoils."

Also, more crying about IRON's terms? Just shut up already. No one cares about you whining over how much the loser has too pay.

[Virillus]

I'm curious at the outrage expressed in this thread.

The arrangement is quite simple: We want to hurt them, but we can't when they hide in peace mode. Whether you feel our desire to punish them is justified or not will dictate whether or not you agree with our means of getting it done.

Would you rather we just give up because it gets a little difficult? "Oh gosh, some NPO members are in peace mode, might as well surrender."

[King Srqt]

I'm curious at the outrage expressed in this thread.

The arrangement is quite simple: We want to hurt them, but we can't when they hide in peace mode. Whether you feel our desire to punish them is justified or not will dictate whether or not you agree with our means of getting it done.

Would you rather we just give up because it gets a little difficult? "Oh gosh, some NPO members are in peace mode, might as well surrender."

I would rather you do not make pointless ultimatums that do not actually serve any positive purpose.

[bzelger]

No I would pound them into the dirt and then offer moderate to light reps, which is exactly what I told all of my allies at the time I hoped they would do. I am not saying free Pacifica but I do not think ultimatums like this serve any positive purpose.

Everyone in war mode has already been pounded into the dirt. All that's left is to find a way to hit their peace mode nations, or end the war. If you object to encouraging their peace mode nations to come out, it seems like there's no real point in prolonging things.

[enderland]

I understand that NPO is gonna get harsh terms. Fine. No, that doesn't make you OMG AS BAD AS NPO, which I know you'll accuse me of saying. But you're setting whole new precedents here, things even NPO never did. Not to mention that, as always, the restitution will wind up in the pockets of opportunists, not in the pockets of those who have a valid claim to restitution. RoK, hopefully your comrades in this fight are as classy as those in your fight against IRON.

-Bama

If you could convince them of the bolded text it might stop this war a lot faster.

[King Srqt]

Everyone in war mode has already been pounded into the dirt. All that's left is to find a way to hit their peace mode nations, or end the war. If you object to encouraging their peace mode nations to come out, it seems like there's no real point in prolonging things.

The thing is that this is not actually going to encourage them to do anything other than buckle down and "go FAN" Plus a lot of their PM nations are only there because you let them get there. so it seems like you are now charging them reps for your own failure to keep some nations covered.

[BamaBuc]

It has already been made clear that RoK was speaking on behalf of all the alliances on the Pacific front and that this is not a RoK policy.

And if the numbers I have heard are accurate RoK's original requested reps could have been paid by IRON in 2 cycles and they took more money in damage negotiating then then the difference of what they negotiated (meaning they were not unreasonable for an alliance of IRON's size). I wouldn't have asked for any reps but that does not mean the reps asked for by RoK are unreasonable.

Also, If you think that making back door peace deals without even discussing it with all the alliances you are fighting alongside then you and I have a different opinion of classy.

Then I apologize. I'll be the first to admit that I'm still pissed about what they tried to pull on IRON. The reps I really take issue with are the ones that never made it to the table because Citadel and MHA would have no part in them. 9b 100k being the number of those reps.

That wasn't what I meant. I was merely hoping that the other alliances would pressure RoK to reduce the rep amounts or at least get rid of these ridiculous "pre-terms". But if, as you said, those terms were given on behalf of the entire group fighting on that front, then I doubt that will happen.

"To the victor go the spoils", eh Wilson? Never heard that line before. Ditto for "shut up, we won, who cares how the loser gets treated?" But I'm an evil Hegemon and have no right to claim injusice. But you are right that I need to get over the IRON terms. I apologize.

-Bama

[bzelger]

The thing is that this is not actually going to encourage them to do anything other than buckle down and "go FAN" Plus a lot of their PM nations are only there because you let them get there. so it seems like you are now charging them reps for your own failure to keep some nations covered.

Possibly. So, would you go ahead and just peace them out now if you were in charge?

[Haflinger]

No one cares about you whining over how much the loser has too pay.

And so we come full circle.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?a...&pid=770629

Except, ironically, James' post was actually in a thread about how much the loser has to pay.

If you could convince them of the bolded text it might stop this war a lot faster.

They already know.

[King Srqt]

Possibly. So, would you go ahead and just peace them out now if you were in charge?

no. I am not 100% sure what I would do to encourage nations out of PM but I am very confident that what you are doing will not work.

[shahenshah]

If you could convince them of the bolded text it might stop this war a lot faster.

They probably know that. What they'd like to know is what would be the difference in end-terms if they come out of peace mode or not. So far, there is nothing concrete...only less or more..how less..how more? they don't know and with crazy reps to be expected, that less and more can be extremely significant.

Look at the original post. It will be roughly that figure added on to the reparations figures that have already been agreed to, as part of the surrender terms, in private Karma venues. I find it amusing that people are demanding Karma to publicly release surrender terms before the war is anywhere near complete. When has that ever been done? Why is that in any way sensible? Not to mention I have already provided evidence that the New Pacific Order has done the exact same thing, and as such, should have no issue with it being done to them.

Apologies if I implied terms be posted to public..I think what I meant was that they be communicated between the involved parties including NPO, because they are the subject of those terms. Regarding 'when has that ever been done?' When has that much NS landed in peace mode?

Regarding NPO doing the exact same thing and you following their footsteps...frankly, I'm not interesting in those arguments at the moment.

If they do not come out of peace mode, they will be looking at reparations that are adjusted to compensate for the number of days that nations above 5k nation strength remained in peace mode, attempting to hide from justice. Again, it tickles me in a special place that you are demanding that we publicise Karma war strategy. Take a look back at how your own alliance has conducted its previous wars.

Read the first line. Regarding my own alliance, there is a topic open to discussion, and there is a topic that discussed it in details. You can re-read those and find your answers. NPO and its reps are the topics on agenda here, I am sure you like to stay on-topic.

I can only say "... What?" to the bolded part. As for the rest, see above.

Fixed my post. Ty for pointing that out.

Since when did I kiss Lady Pacifica on the forehead and tell her that everything is going to be fine? It will be quite the opposite. To continue with your cliff-jumping analogy, Pacifica has more than enough information to make a decision; if they hide from justice, they will have a longer fall, larger medical bills and an extended recovery time, however, if they actually fight the war they initiated, they will experience a shorter fall, reduced medical bills, and a shorter recovery time.

Regarding more than enough information..are you saying that end-reps based on peace mode and no-peace mode has been offered to NPO privately? I am not asking that they be shared publicly tho.

Justice is a term based on point of view, I'll again not get into that, regarding shorter or longer fall, again its a vague answer. How short or long fall? How much reduced medical bills? How shorter recovery time? You are being vague and unclear and since your point of view varies greatly, you need to be specific. If you have no hidden agenda, I don't see what is the problem in offering the numbers to do simple maths to NPO..and pls I am not talking about the pre-terms.

I am sure tho, your resolve has never been stronger. We got it the first time that line was posted. I'm not sure if it was you or someone else. It always reminds me of the /ooc/ Star Wars Villain./ooc/ Cool old guy.

Edited May 28, 2009 by shahenshah

[shahenshah]

No one cares about you whining over how much the loser has too pay.

Sorry sweetheart, I along with several people care about what Bama has to post.

[bzelger]

no. I am not 100% sure what I would do to encourage nations out of PM but I am very confident that what you are doing will not work.

There's a dilemma here, because what would work - promising war to nations in peace mode even after peace is agreed (the NPO strategy) is crap, and I think most everyone agrees on that.

This alternative method is a compromise: it makes no threat against individual nations for using the game mechanics, it provides incentive to leave peace mode, and if they elect not to leave peace mode at some point the reparations they accrue will compensate for the damages they would have received (although I don't know if the alliances at war with the NPO will actually accept this in lieu of damages). It has issues with it, but there's not a better solution on the table.

[Epik High]

Lee was just the messenger of those Karma alliances on the Pacific front. This is not a Ragnarok ultimatum, but an ultimatum made by FOK, Sparta, VE, GOD, Vanguard, GR, Athens, and so on.

This war will conclude when those alliances at war with the New Pacific Order perceive the amount of damage done to the New Pacific Order to be appropriate punishment for their unjustified attack on Ordo Verde and their past transgressions. If I had to put a number on it, my personal opinion on what would be adequate reprisal would be for Pacifica to fall below 5 million nation strength and lose sanction status. Surrender terms have already been written and largely agreed upon. However, they will not be offered until this war is actually won. The New Pacific Order has two choices: i) Drag this war out, attempt to hide from justice via the use of peace mode, and have a large amount of reparations and time added to the surrender terms, or ii) Actually fight the war that they started, receive the punishment they deserve, accept the surrender terms and, within a matter of a couple of weeks, be free to concentrate on reconstruction and the payment of much smaller reparations.

It's very simple. The only reason Pacifica has so far selected option one is due to the erroneous belief that Karma forces will grow tired of this war before they do; a last desperate attempt to clutch on to some semblance of control.

My mistake. Either way, I feel bad for the Karma officials who have to keep track of this. Quintessential tedium.

Do nations exiting and reentering peacemode add on a double penalty to the reparations?

[flak attack]

2. Offered harshest terms ever.

These terms are still less than the ones offered to GPA, NpO and MK. There's probably a few other alliances that paid more two.

[bzelger]

Do nations exiting and reentering peacemode add on a double penalty to the reparations?

I'm not sure what you mean; the penalty is per nation per day in peace mode. It's tacked on for every day they spend there, regardless of whether it's consecutive.

[Schattenmann]

If you're going to calculate based on the day-t0-day nation count (307 in the case of the OP) then your reps will be wildly inaccurate. You'll have more than the total number of nations in the NPO within a few days. The total number of NPO nations in peace mode on the day you calculate is the amount in peace mode on the alliance stats list, not that day plus the days before.

The total number of NPO nations that have entered NPO Tactics mode are the ones on day one, plus the 7 new ones, plus any that might be replacing nations that have exited NPO Tactics mode. The number would only be 307 if all 150 from day one left, then 157 different nations entered the next day.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Schattenmann

[King Srqt]

If you're going to calculate based on the day-t0-day nation count (307 in the case of the OP) then your reps will be wildly inaccurate. You'll have more than the total number of nations in the NPO within a few days.

The total in the OP is accurate since the "fine" is charged daily. If there are 3 nations violating today and 3 tomorrow you still ave to multiply the fine by 6 to get the correct rep total which is the formula that the OP is using.

Edited May 28, 2009 by KingSrqt

[Gamemaster1]

And we have every right to do that.

"To the victor comes the spoils."

Also, more crying about IRON's terms? Just shut up already. No one cares about you whining over how much the loser has too pay.

It's funny how the EXACT thing you whine about NPO doing you don't mind doing yourself. Bama is doing EXACTLY what you did EVERY time NPO gave terms, and yet, you doing it somehow makes it better. The freaking hypocrisy is so blatantly obvious, it's sad.

I think it is interesting how far you are trying to run NPO into the ground. All I'll say on topic is that I hope they get the terms they deserve.

[Virillus]

I would rather you do not make pointless ultimatums that do not actually serve any positive purpose.

This is a matter of opinion, though, Srqt.

You feel that this will not accomplish anything. - This is fine, as your opinion is your own. However, we feel that it will accomplish something - the war ending faster. I understand that you may disagree with us, but I do not understand why you would automatically assume we are incorrect and therefore flawed, simply because of your own opinion.

You may have your chance to say "HAHA, I WAS RIGHT!!!!!one." But not yet.

[Mozaffar]

It's funny how the EXACT thing you whine about NPO doing you don't mind doing yourself. Bama is doing EXACTLY what you did EVERY time NPO gave terms, and yet, you doing it somehow makes it better. The freaking hypocrisy is so blatantly obvious, it's sad.

I think it is interesting how far you are trying to run NPO into the ground. All I'll say on topic is that I hope they get the terms they deserve.

NPO deserves the reparations of this magnitude, they didn't flinch while giving these kind of reparations to GPA, MK and NpO and boy had they been given the chance they would have given them to FAN as an end to the second war. If any alliance deserves this treatment it's the NPO.

I'm getting the idea that Alzheimer's disease is becoming prevalent across Planet Bob, in particular in alliances previously allied to the NPO.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Mozaffar

[jimbacher]

Pm NS-----------------Pm infra-----------------Pm Tech

5040583.514----------889875.21---------------272008.12

Total NS----------------Total infra---------------Total Tech

7,484,085--------------1,130,983----------------528,720

%-----------------------%-------------------------%

0.673506984-----------0.786815726-------------0.51446535

Only 2.5 million NS of pacifica lies outside PM. Which implies around 5k average NS for non PM nations. If you think you can "drop" us to below 5 mill NS, it is not possible. I am not here to argue or anything, just posting stats.

Edited May 28, 2009 by jimbacher

[HeinousOne]

I have seen this show before an d I already know the ending. Here are the facts guys, this tactic does not work as has already been proven via FAN, what you are actually doing with this is discouraging NPO to seek peace. Yeah I get that they are being hypocrites but they also have a tight enough community and enough invested into the game to do the same thing FAN did.

Before you know it a whole new breed of player will be here that only knows NPO as the defeated alliance held in a state of eternal war and that will be used against you to take you down.

If you do not want to rethink this strategy because of morality then I would implore you to rethink it because of its long term tactical implications.

I don't know if my praise matters for anything, it probably doesn't but you appear to be one of the few others besides myself looking at this from a future angle. I see things pretty much in similiar light as you do.

[Schattenmann]

If you're going to calculate based on the day-to-day nation count (307 in the case of the OP) then your reps will be wildly inaccurate. You'll have more than the total number of nations in the NPO within a few days. The total number of NPO nations in peace mode on the day you calculate is the amount in peace mode on the alliance stats list, not that day plus the days before.

The total number of NPO nations that have entered NPO Tactics mode are the ones on day one, plus the 7 new ones, plus any that might be replacing nations that have exited NPO Tactics mode. The number would only be 307 if all 150 from day one left, then 157 different nations entered the next day.

The total in the OP is accurate since the "fine" is charged daily. If there are 3 nations violating today and 3 tomorrow you still ave to multiply the fine by 6 to get the correct rep total which is the formula that the OP is using.

[9:30pm] Gen_Lee: -6th Day and on:.For every NPO nation above 5k NS in peace mode, 3 mil and 100 tech in reparations will be added to any peace terms, per day. The duration of all peace terms will also be increased by 2 days for any day any NPO nation above 5k is in peace after the 5th day.

So, 150 nations on day 6 (day 1 of penalties) means 2 days, 15k tech, and 450,000,000 dongs.

Day 2 calculated as laid out by Gen Lee means 157 nations mean another 2 days, 15,700 tech, and 471,000,000 dongs

So, the total from days 1 and 2 of penalties is 4 days, 30,700k tech, and 921,000,000 dongs.

So, yes, the math is correct, but the the total number of nations in NPO Tactics Mode is not. Vlad in peace mode on day one and Vlad in peace mode on day 2 does not equal two nations in penalty, it equals one nation in violation. Vlad in peace mode on day 1, then out on day two, but darkmistress entering peace mode on day 2 equals 2 nations in peace mode total. To get the total number of nations that violate you'd hav to create a database, not just add the number on the screen from day one to the number on the screen from day 2, otherwise, as I said, within a few days your "total nations in peace mode" will be more than there are actual NPO nations.

Granted, in the post you replied to I said "if you calculate based on [that flawed nation total she used] then the reps will be wildly inaccurate." and she is not doing that. So, we're both correct in a perfect Post Moddern Era happy sunshine time result.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Schattenmann

[Haflinger]

I'm getting the idea that Alzheimer's disease is becoming prevalent across Planet Bob, in particular in alliances previously allied to the NPO.

You were replying to a member of TOOL. TOOL currently holds a PIAT with the NPO, which is the only treaty that they've ever signed with Pacifica. Depending on what you mean by "allied" (some people think of it as MDP+) they have either never been allied to NPO or are still allied to the NPO.