New Pacific Order Reps Race

[Derwood1]

man I wish I had the extra time to add that all up....

[James Wilson]

So, I take it that you all think its wrong for VE, GOD, RoK, and OV, who've taken an incredible amount of damage fighting the NPO, to ask for extreme reparations when we entered this war to defend our ally?

[ChairmanHal]

So, I take it that you all think its wrong for VE, GOD, RoK, and OV, who've taken an incredible amount of damage fighting the NPO, to ask for extreme reparations when we entered this war to defend our ally?

Not a question or right and wrong, actually.

You can always ask for reparations, whether you will receive or not is another matter entirely. Rok and the others entered this war knowing that reparations might be possible at the end, but the primary goal of the conflict was to come to the aid of OV and to reduce or eliminate NPO as a threat. If the "reps" you'll get are the primary motivation instead, that makes you at best a mercenary.

Luke: She's rich.

Han Solo: [interested] Rich?

Luke: Rich, powerful. Listen, if you were to rescue her, the reward would be...

Han Solo: What?

Luke: Well, more wealth than you can imagine!

Han Solo: I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit.

[Haflinger]

And if the NPO places so little value upon low strength nations, and continues to keep high level nations in peace mode, then what's stopping people from leaving the NPO or surrendering to Karma.

Most of their nations in peace mode are low strength nations.

They have 67 nations over 25K in peace mode, 212 nations under 25K in peace mode. Of course, Karma is setting the bar at 5K - there's no penalty for nations under 5K NS remaining in peace mode. By my count, that's 156 nations Karma wants to come out of peace, including nations like this one which obviously haven't fought at all in the war.

Ellen, you're only counting nations over 5K right?

[shahenshah]

I was just wondering from NPO PoV...why should I come out? 1. Get !@#$ beaten out of me. 2. Offered harshest terms ever.

Basically, they have nothing to loose if thats your best offer.

One who has nothing to loose has everything to gain..so they might as well take a chance with peace mode.

-

Just providing different opinion for sake of discussion.

Edited May 28, 2009 by shahenshah

[Solaris]

Not a question or right and wrong, actually.

You can always ask for reparations, whether you will receive or not is another matter entirely. Rok and the others entered this war knowing that reparations might be possible at the end, but the primary goal of the conflict was to come to the aid of OV and to reduce or eliminate NPO as a threat. If the "reps" you'll get are the primary motivation instead, that makes you at best a mercenary.

Luke: She's rich.

Han Solo: [interested] Rich?

Luke: Rich, powerful. Listen, if you were to rescue her, the reward would be...

Han Solo: What?

Luke: Well, more wealth than you can imagine!

Han Solo: I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit.

I can assure you, we didn't look at the OV/NPO situation developing with a glee saying "Oh wow, nom nom nom, we could win dongs from this" in our eyes. OV isn't a rich princess. Instead, we were worried but observant with the situation's developments, but prepared to stand with our allies should the agression actually take place.

Reparations are merely a part of a well deserved fate for NPO, who with an inadequate justification, and in an audacious manner, criminally attacked our allies in the Ordo Verde.

To those who question, whether this treatment of NPO is unjustified? Wrong? No. It's not. Someone once asked what's wrong with being a mindless drone. Well, for one, your leaders might use you for unjustified agression, and if you aren't smart enough to abandon them after such a betrayal, you may very well have to share their punishment.

[A Soviet Attack]

I was just wondering from NPO PoV...why should I come out? 1. Get !@#$ beaten out of me. 2. Offered harshest terms ever.

Basically, they have nothing to loose if thats your best offer.

One who has nothing to loose has everything to gain..so they might as well take a chance with peace mode.

-

Just providing different opinion for sake of discussion.

If they come out, the terms will be lighter. Simple.

[shahenshah]

If they come out, the terms will be lighter. Simple.

And how would that know that?

Staying in peace mode for NPO remains better option than certain pwnage and uncertain high and harsh reps.

Edited May 28, 2009 by shahenshah

[Denial]

And how would that know that?

Simple math and common sense, I would guess.

Staying in peace mode for NPO remains better option than certain pwnage and uncertain high and harsh reps.

I'll refer you to one of my previous posts:

This war will conclude when those alliances at war with the New Pacific Order perceive the amount of damage done to the New Pacific Order to be appropriate punishment for their unjustified attack on Ordo Verde and their past transgressions. If I had to put a number on it, my personal opinion on what would be adequate reprisal would be for Pacifica to fall below 5 million nation strength and lose sanction status. Surrender terms have already been written and largely agreed upon. However, they will not be offered until this war is actually won. The New Pacific Order has two choices: i) Drag this war out, attempt to hide from justice via the use of peace mode, and have a large amount of reparations and time added to the surrender terms, or ii) Actually fight the war that they started, receive the punishment they deserve, accept the surrender terms and, within a matter of a couple of weeks, be free to concentrate on reconstruction and the payment of much smaller reparations.

It's very simple. The only reason Pacifica has so far selected option one is due to the erroneous belief that Karma forces will grow tired of this war before they do; a last desperate attempt to clutch on to some semblance of control.

[Blacky]

Wait so there's no catch and it's pretty straight forward.

The reps aren't that difficult to manage now.

If they just surrendered now they could be done with the reps after a short time and be on their way. The terms for an alliance NPO's size with the number of nations in peace mode who can comfortably produce twice or thrice as much to fill their aid slots with outgoing aid, are relatively light.

The longer they try to hold out for terms which suit them, to some how spin this into a victory, the more their compatriots will suffer. Both in fighting the war, and later in paying reparations for their unjustified attacks of the past and of that on OV.

I have no sympathy for NPO if they let this get out of hand. They have been offered a way out of this war and should take it. If they choose not to all they can expect is what they're trying to avoid, harsh terms.

[Drai]

man I wish I had the extra time to add that all up....

It would barely take a minute. You view the alliance rankings, sort by peace/war mode and multiple said reps/nation by the number of nations in peace mode and add it on to the previous day's total. I think people are believing that you have to view every nation to see if they're in peace or war mode...

[Kiss Goodbye]

I was just wondering from NPO PoV...why should I come out? 1. Get !@#$ beaten out of me. 2. Offered harshest terms ever.

Basically, they have nothing to loose if thats your best offer.

One who has nothing to loose has everything to gain..so they might as well take a chance with peace mode.

-

Just providing different opinion for sake of discussion.

You're more correct than you realize. But not for those reasons.

Currently NPO is losing strength at a rate of 200,000 per day. They'll be below 5m NS in less than 2 weeks.

If Revanche is being honest when he claims they'll be looking to give peace when NPO drops below 5,000,000 NS, the logical thing for those nations to do is stay put and wait it out. The difference between paying 30,000 tech and ~200,000 tech (my estimate for what will eventually be reached when peace is actually offered) is not so great if you have hundreds of nations who have functional economies freed of the ravages of war. Ten days of 150 nations getting nuked could be as much as 1,000 tech damage to each of those nations (if they're fighting WRC-armed foes, more like 600 otherwise), plus the infra losses and cash losses inherent in this.

In short, at the rate these reps are driven up, their per-member cost to NPO is less than if the folks in PM came out of it. Increasing their intensity is unlikely to effect this either, as that's not the problem--it's the manner in which they're applied. I'll explain.

Now, if the reparations clock were set up so as to add two days to the providing of terms, rather than their duration, there would be a clear motivation for NPO to leave peacemode and fight since they wouldn't get any peace until then, meaning everyone but those protected nations would be dead.

Alternately if the reparations being added were tagged exclusively against those nations remaining in peacemode, they'd also be highly effective.

As these reps are now, they're largely going to be ineffective in luring NPO to fight. And the NPO is big enough to face these reps. At their absolute worst, what we'll see is the equivalent of maybe 4 times what Mushroom Kingdom paid, with similar numbers of members and vastly less damaged economies. Not that hard to pay off at all, and certainly less of a threat than the damage inherent in fighting this war.

That's my 2 cents.

If they just surrendered now they could be done with the reps after a short time and be on their way. The terms for an alliance NPO's size with the number of nations in peace mode who can comfortably produce twice or thrice as much to fill their aid slots with outgoing aid, are relatively light.

Not quite: the terms have not been offered yet. According to Revanche, they will be offered when NPO hits 5m NS.

As I said, it's to their benefit to wait it out, hit 5m NS in about 10 days, and take the terms as they are, taking full advantage of the fact that even as those terms will be quite large, they'll be completely manageable for the nations who stayed out of the war.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Kiss Goodbye

[Heracles the Great]

Thanks for the work OP - I'm looking forward to this

[ChairmanHal]

I can assure you, we didn't look at the OV/NPO situation developing with a glee saying "Oh wow, nom nom nom, we could win dongs from this" in our eyes. OV isn't a rich princess. Instead, we were worried but observant with the situation's developments, but prepared to stand with our allies should the agression actually take place.

I'm pretty sure you knew you had the numbers to make this work but it would be bloody. No, in the time I spent talking about this war behind the scenes with various Rok allies, including VE, reparations were never a subject.

Reparations are merely a part of a well deserved fate for NPO, who with an inadequate justification, and in an audacious manner, criminally attacked our allies in the Ordo Verde.

Well now, as I recall there was a valid CB somewhere in there, spying and such. Where NPO failed was that they took something that should have been a lengthy backroom meeting, and a chance for OV to fix things quietly, and turned it into a massive "Charles Foxtrot". If this were Poker, NPO tried its usual bluff tactics and playing pot bully and got called.

To those who question, whether this treatment of NPO is unjustified? Wrong? No. It's not. Someone once asked what's wrong with being a mindless drone. Well, for one, your leaders might use you for unjustified aggression, and if you aren't smart enough to abandon them after such a betrayal, you may very well have to share their punishment.

Oh by no means am I objecting to anything that you ask from NPO in negotiations. At this stage they are former allies to me. My only point is that the more outlandish the reparations get, the less likely you'll ever actually collect them.

[Drai]

If Revanche is being honest when he claims they'll be looking to give peace when NPO drops below 5,000,000 NS,

Keep in mind that's Revanche's opinion. Karma has many voices to account for. If in 2 weeks when NPO (might) be below 5 mil NS and they're not receiving terms, don't go complaining that Karma is dishonest.

[VIdiot the Great]

And how would that know that?

Staying in peace mode for NPO remains better option than certain pwnage and uncertain high and harsh reps.

I have to agree with this. Shame that GATO wasn't realistically given the same choice.

[Haflinger]

So now, the target is 5 million NS? Note that they will still have a sanction at that point.

[bbrownso]

Not really. It's the Karma War, so yeah, what goes around comes around.

so when Karma alliances get stomped and get "pre-terms," will the CN community at large here a lot of whining? I mean, since everything comes around eventually.

[Haflinger]

Keep in mind that's Revanche's opinion. Karma has many voices to account for. If in 2 weeks when NPO (might) be below 5 mil NS and they're not receiving terms, don't go complaining that Karma is dishonest.

This is the fundamental problem, and why NPO isn't surrendering. They are in the position of negotiating based on no information, as nobody is responsible for presenting them with terms, other than the preterms which are non-negotiable (supposedly) and give the NPO no actual benefit if they're complied with.

[Kiss Goodbye]

Keep in mind that's Revanche's opinion. Karma has many voices to account for. If in 2 weeks when NPO (might) be below 5 mil NS and they're not receiving terms, don't go complaining that Karma is dishonest.

I--and I speak only for myself--don't give a damn when they get peace. I do not care on any level whatsoever. I am simply providing my view of the effectiveness of what Karma has put forth. It's a poor system for achieving their goals, as it does not provide NPO with a sufficient motive to leave peacemode. \

Not in terms of morale, not even mathematically.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Kiss Goodbye

[Il Impero Romano]

Well now, as I recall there was a valid CB somewhere in there, spying and such. Where NPO failed was that they took something that should have been a lengthy backroom meeting, and a chance for OV to fix things quietly, and turned it into a massive "Charles Foxtrot". If this were Poker, NPO tried its usual bluff tactics and playing pot bully and got called.

Um, you mean the looking at a @#$%ing warchest requirement screen shot right? Just making sure that what your considering spying and a "valid CB"...

[Denial]

So now, the target is 5 million NS? Note that they will still have a sanction at that point.

Despite both myself and Drai stating that Pacifica falling below 5 million total strength and losing sanction would be adequate punishment was my own personal opinion, you still somehow deduced that it was Karma's official policy?

[Blacky]

According to Revanche, they will be offered when NPO hits 5m NS.

I don't know that he said that.

I think he believes they might deserve that which is undeniably true.

The fact is whatever angle you look at this a full and unequivocal surrender without reservations now will benefit them. The longer they try to hold out and end the war on their terms the longer this war will run. I'm glad the alliances at war with the NPO have not developed amnesia and can clearly remember their old tricks which they seem as though they are up to now. Unfortunately for them though there are no cracks in this new coalition they fight against.

[Kiss Goodbye]

Despite both myself and Drai stating that Pacifica falling below 5 million total strength and losing sanction would be adequate punishment was my own personal opinion, you still somehow deduced that it was Karma's official policy?

Let me be direct with you: do you think that if NPO keeps these nations in peacemode (as they inevitably will), the war will be extended for reasons separate from them reaching acceptable damage levels?

If your answer is yes--and I don't demand that you actually give me an answer here--I hope you will consider including that in these preterms. That would likely make them more effective, and would secure a lower Global Radiation Level for us all.

That's something I think we can all agree is a good thing.

I don't know that he said that.

I think he believes they might deserve that which is undeniably true.

The fact is whatever angle you look at this a full and unequivocal surrender without reservations now will benefit them. The longer they try to hold out and end the war on their terms the longer this war will run. I'm glad the alliances at war with the NPO have not developed amnesia and can clearly remember their old tricks which they seem as though they are up to now. Unfortunately for them though there are no cracks in this new coalition they fight against.

You have a point there. I do think it's going to be difficult to get them to do anything when left in the dark as to when they're actually getting these terms presented, though. They haven't been given yet, and with the information currently available, them changing anything would probably not be a good decision. As I said, that would change if certain details were included in these terms.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Kiss Goodbye

[Il Impero Romano]

To those crying about this...you know they can just come out of peace mode right?