first wonder

[Britanicca]

what one would be best to get? also why is it better?

[thedestro]

Stock Market, Interstate, and Social Security should be your first three (not in that order necessarily though)

[Overlord Shinnra]

Social Security System is the best wonder. If you don't have the money and want to buy immediately to start wonder purchases then I would suggest Stock Market. Don't buy DRA as your first wonder though :/

[Britanicca]

Social Security System is the best wonder. If you don't have the money and want to buy immediately to start wonder purchases then I would suggest Stock Market. Don't buy DRA as your first wonder though :/

why not?

[Brinoceros]

why not?

The extra aid slot is useful but stock market gives you a better bonus: more cash! There well come a time when bills and what not are to expense, and having the Stock Market well allow you to keep going forward. Besides, one extra aid slot isn't all that spectacular. Go for anything that greatly boosts your economy first(SM, SSS, IS, GT, GM), then get DRA to get some more tech.

[Joneleth]

This is a carryover from a conversation on our forums, but I figured I might as well post the argument I used for DRA here. (anyone who wants to correct my maths is more than welcome! )

This is using his nation as an example:

Anyway, if you have 50,345 taxpaying citizens with 96.38 collected per citizen at 28% (I assume your income is 344.21 total), a DRA will give you +1510 citizens, for a total of 51,855 citizens. That means you'll go from collecting 4852251.10 daily to collecting 4997784.90 daily, a difference of +145,533.8 a day.

If you have the stock market, you go from collecting 4852251.10 daily to 4993217.10 daily, a difference of 140,966 a day.

To recap:

DRA: +145,533.8/day

SM: +140,966/day

DRA wins out by 4,567.8/day

That's actually beside the point. For a nation with very low taxpaying citizens like the example we just used, DRA wins out by a measly 4,567.8. The thing is, the +3% population allows for a dynamic variable, and it will give you a larger boost as your nation continues to grow. (+30 citizens for 1000 citizens, but +3000 for 100,000) the +10.00 income isn't a percentage, it remains static regardless of whether you have a thousand citizens or a million.

Lets try the example again with 100,000 tax paying citizens who, for the sake of argument, have an income of 450.00 (or pay 126.00 in taxes). A DRA will net them an extra 3,000 taxpayers, or go from 12600000/day to 12978000/day, for a difference of +378,000/day. Compare that to the stock market which increases their taxes to 128.80 for a total of 12880000, or a difference of +280,000. in this example

DRA: +378,000/day

SM: +280,000/day

DRA wins out by 98,000/day

That's with LESS THAN DOUBLE your current population, and the gap continues to widen exponentially into infinity.

But what really wins the day for me is that the SM just gives you the 10.00 boost, and that's it. The DRA not only gives more money and increasingly larger amounts are you grow, it opens up another aid slot, allowing you to aid more members in your alliance, or join a second tech party, depending on where you are and what you're trying to accomplish.

Conclusion: DRA is the better choice. The 10,000,000 price difference is insignificant when you realise that the increased income from DRA will help you buy more infra and pay it back quicker. You could also make a point that the extra tech gained helps you reach 3000 tech faster, better utilising the awesome +6 happiness gained from having Great University + 3000 or more tech.

[maxwell little]

That is not accurate, a nation with 45000 taxpaying citizens and 100$ in net collection per person would gain a boost of (20x0.28x45000) or about 250k a day in extra taxes. The DRA only gives an extra 3%, or in this case 135000 a day in income. The SM bonus is modified by economic improvements, which you have all of by 45k citizens, when you correctly factory/IA/LC swap. The SM is the best first, usually around 4k infra it is actually better than the SSS, 20$ income beats out 7% when your income is less than 280$. The difference is that the SM is 10 million cheaper, and you will not make the difference back in 30 days from the SSS's usual edge. However, getting SSS second adds that 7% modifier onto the SM boosted income, making them together far more powerful. Then you buy the +5 happiness wonders, then MP/SDI, and you slip the DRA in whenever you want to buy 6 tech slots or give out aid to your alliance.

[Brinoceros]

I used CN Utilities, I guessed on happiness(44.03) and for income I used what Joneleth used.

This is what I got for money boosting:

DRA-$145,565.72

SM-$292,635.37

BIG difference.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Brinoceros

[Joneleth]

You two are both mistaken, Maxwell for saying +20, Brinocerus for saying +10 happiness. It's +10 income, not happiness.

[Joneleth]

Reread. I can't use CN utilities, but can someone enlighten me on how the SM wonder is increased by improvements?

[Brinoceros]

err...when did I say +10 happiness?

[Brinoceros]

Ask this dude: (DAC)Syzygy

He's the one who came up with that calculator.

[Joneleth]

err...when did I say +10 happiness?

I apologise, I misread your post. (for some reason I can't edit my posts, I'd change it otherwise)

I'm just curious why SM is multiplied out as 20 instead of 10 (as it only adds 10.00 to income, and I assume it's treated the same way as improvements and NOT effected by other improvements)

[Joneleth]

Still waiting on the explaination for 20 income instead of 10, but wanted to point out that if the Stock Market is affected my improvements (which I doubt, since none of the income improvements affect the others) then logically the Disaster Relief Agency would be affected by the citizen increasing improvements too, and would still come out on top...

[Mirreille]

DRA give a pop. boosting modifier itself, it will work with the others, not be modified by them. The + happiness wonders/improvements/resources and the + $ generating ones will all be affected by your income boosting improvements like banks,schools, etc.. A full set of income boosters(minus the insanely expensive SDC) will modify them by 2.07 I believe. So the Stock Market will be worth more then $20, while the DRA will boost your pop. by the 3%. Being able to use another FA slot to buy tech is nice if you are prepared to take advantage of it, but if you want more income the SM will generate much more at a lower cost to purchase.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Mirreille

[Drai]

Stock Market is the biggest gain per price paid.

[Joneleth]

DRA give a pop. boosting modifier itself, it will work with the others, not be modified by them. The + happiness wonders/improvements/resources and the + $ generating ones will all be affected by your income boosting improvements like banks,schools, etc.. A full set of income boosters(minus the insanely expensive SDC) will modify them by 2.07 I believe. So the Stock Market will be worth more then $20, while the DRA will boost your pop. by the 3%. Being able to use another FA slot to buy tech is nice if you are prepared to take advantage of it, but if you want more income the SM will generate much more at a lower cost to purchase.

Good to know, then. I had thought the +10.00 was a hard value and not increased/decreased by improvements.

[Count Rupert]

Still waiting on the explaination for 20 income instead of 10, but wanted to point out that if the Stock Market is affected my improvements (which I doubt, since none of the income improvements affect the others) then logically the Disaster Relief Agency would be affected by the citizen increasing improvements too, and would still come out on top...

You partially wrong, all the different economic improvements affect each other, like ones stack. So one bank doesn't affect the income from another bank (since they stack, all five banks are worth 35%), a but a school does modify the income from a bank. In the case of of the SM, it provides a $10 boost to base income. Base income in turn is modified by all the economic wonders. So it looks like this:

$10.00*1.35(banks)*1.25(schools)*1.16(unversities)*1.05(Foreign Embassy)*1.01(Harbor) = $20.76

So with all the economic improvements, the SM provides a $20.75 boost to citizen gross income. Yes the DRA is affected by the population increasing improvements (clinics/hospital), but the total number of citizens you gave before applying the DRA already had the clinics/hospital boosts applied. so looking at the example you provided:

Anyway, if you have 50,345 taxpaying citizens with 96.38 collected per citizen at 28% (I assume your income is 344.21 total), a DRA will give you +1510 citizens, for a total of 51,855 citizens. That means you'll go from collecting 4852251.10 daily to collecting 4997784.90 daily, a difference of +145,533.8 a day.

DRA provides a 3% boost to population. You indicate a starting population of 50,345 (which is already modified by the clinics/hospital). So it's 50,345*1.03 = 51,855 as you indicate. Thus income is as you indicate as well, 50,345 citizens paying $96.38 in taxes totals $4,852,251.10 while 51,855 paying the same in taxes will result in a collection of $4,997,784.90 or a different of +$145,533.80. So this agrees with the work you provided.

The SM is a totally different story however. You indicated a gross citizen income of $344.21. As shown above, the SM with full economic improvements will add $20.76 to gross citizen income, so $344.21 + $20.76 = $364.97. At a tax rate of 28%, the new taxes paid by each citizen goes from $96.38 to $102.19. The example shows a starting population of 50,345 which remains unchanged thus 50,345*$102.19 = $5,144,755.55, a difference of $292,504.45 in collections over those made without the SM. That means the SM will produce an income of $146,970.65 more a day than the DRA will provide.

It's actually even worse than that since there is a $10 million difference in the price tag of the two wonders. Not only does the a nation buying a SM over a DRA start their wonder clock earlier since it doesn't take as long to save the money needed for purchase, but it will have $10 million to buy infrastructure meaning even more citizens paying taxes.

[nc1701]

I've done the math on Stock Market vs. Social Security System for my alliance, the answers will suprise you.

As for Disaster Relief Agency, it is generally inferior unless you are a big donation dealer. If your doing donations and thus keeping all of your slots full the extra 3m+50 tech/10 days will be worth twice as much as the extra income of about 150k/day from the Stock Market. If your still selling tech the extra income from another aid slot must also be considered.

[thaone]

I've done the math on Stock Market vs. Social Security System for my alliance, the answers will suprise you.

As for Disaster Relief Agency, it is generally inferior unless you are a big donation dealer. If your doing donations and thus keeping all of your slots full the extra 3m+50 tech/10 days will be worth twice as much as the extra income of about 150k/day from the Stock Market. If your still selling tech the extra income from another aid slot must also be considered.

Me likes tech, so a DRA is always a great wonder.

[lonewolfe2015]

I can help settle this with pure stats.

My Nation

I have 3 Wonders, SSS, SM and DRA. All 3 in that order of purchase. If I deleted the SM right now, my income would go down $324,131, however should I delete my DRA my income would go down only $158,664 due to the 1,518 citizens I'd be losing. I personally only chose DRA now, because I already earn greater than 3.5 mil after bills and my alliance could use the additional funds from me.

[Overlord Shinnra]

This isn't that difficult of a question lol.

SSS - Will increase your income the most

SM - Will give you the most per dollar of what you are buying

DRA - gives you the extra aid slot but not nearly as much income

I'll assume the stats from before.

Anyway, if you have 50,345 taxpaying citizens with 96.38 collected per citizen at 28% (I assume your income is 344.21 total),

Nation A - Social Security System (40,000,000)

Now 344.21 * .30 = 103.263 collected per citizen

50,345 * 96.38 = 4,852,251.10

50,345 * 103.263 = 5,198,775.74

= +346,524.64 per day

Nation B - Stock Market (30,000,000)

Now 354.21 * .28 = 99.179

50,345 * 96.38 = 4,852,251.10

50,345 * 99.179 = 4,993,166.76

= +140,915.66

--------------------

Now obviously the SSS is going to give you more income per day and the higher benefit even when you take into account the extra infra, tech, whatevers you buy with the extra 10 million you save. Now lets take a look at future costs of this.

SSS - 40,000,000 / 346,524.64 = 116 days

SM - 30,000,000 / 140,915.66 = 213 days

Either way you shake it up the SSS is better.

[Doeroler247]

Stock market >.>

[Count Rupert]

This isn't that difficult of a question lol.

SSS - Will increase your income the most

SM - Will give you the most per dollar of what you are buying

DRA - gives you the extra aid slot but not nearly as much income

I'll assume the stats from before.

Nation A - Social Security System (40,000,000)

Now 344.21 * .30 = 103.263 collected per citizen

50,345 * 96.38 = 4,852,251.10

50,345 * 103.263 = 5,198,775.74

= +346,524.64 per day

Nation B - Stock Market (30,000,000)

Now 354.21 * .28 = 99.179

50,345 * 96.38 = 4,852,251.10

50,345 * 99.179 = 4,993,166.76

= +140,915.66

--------------------

Now obviously the SSS is going to give you more income per day and the higher benefit even when you take into account the extra infra, tech, whatevers you buy with the extra 10 million you save. Now lets take a look at future costs of this.

SSS - 40,000,000 / 346,524.64 = 116 days

SM - 30,000,000 / 140,915.66 = 213 days

Either way you shake it up the SSS is better.

Problem is your math is wrong. SM's stated benefit of $10 is before modification by economic improvements. So it doesn't add just $10 to the gross citizen income like you did, it adds $20.76. So nation B should look like this:

Nation B - Stock Market (30,000,000)

Now $364.97 * .28 = $102.19

50,345 * $96.38 = $4,852,251.10

50,345 * $102.19 = $5,144,755.55

= +$292,504.45

Now that's only a $54,020.19 difference day instead of the over $200,000 difference you were indicating. So the $10 million difference in the price tag you say has no bearing because of the SSS's higher benefit does actually have a bearing because the citizens that could be added if it were spent on infrastructure can more than makeup the $54,020.19 shortfall between what the SSS earns over the SM (you only need to increase the number of citizens you have by 549 to achieve this).

The comparsion of the payback period changes to:

SSS - $40,000,000 / $346,524.64 = 116 days

SM - $30,000,000 / $292,504.45 = 103 days

The SM comes out superior not the SSS in payback period as well. That's not to mention the $10 million not spent on the SSS can be spent on infrastructure or other needs. At the income of the example, it would take 4 days longer to save for the SSS over buying the SM. That means starting the wonder clock 4 days later. That's $1,170,017.80 in lost income over the SM. You can never make up those four days. And those four days get magnified because it means they get the second wonder 4 days earlier and so on.

[Overlord Shinnra]

Problem is your math is wrong. SM's stated benefit of $10 is before modification by economic improvements. So it doesn't add just $10 to the gross citizen income like you did, it adds $20.76. So nation B should look like this:

Nation B - Stock Market (30,000,000)

Now $364.97 * .28 = $102.19

50,345 * $96.38 = $4,852,251.10

50,345 * $102.19 = $5,144,755.55

= +$292,504.45

Now that's only a $54,020.19 difference day instead of the over $200,000 difference you were indicating. So the $10 million difference in the price tag you say has no bearing because of the SSS's higher benefit does actually have a bearing because the citizens that could be added if it were spent on infrastructure can more than makeup the $54,020.19 shortfall between what the SSS earns over the SM (you only need to increase the number of citizens you have by 549 to achieve this).

The comparsion of the payback period changes to:

SSS - $40,000,000 / $346,524.64 = 116 days

SM - $30,000,000 / $292,504.45 = 103 days

The SM comes out superior not the SSS in payback period as well. That's not to mention the $10 million not spent on the SSS can be spent on infrastructure or other needs. At the income of the example, it would take 4 days longer to save for the SSS over buying the SM. That means starting the wonder clock 4 days later. That's $1,170,017.80 in lost income over the SM. You can never make up those four days. And those four days get magnified because it means they get the second wonder 4 days earlier and so on.

Unfortunately you are not looking far enough down the line. Even if your numbers are correct which I am not skeptical about. You are not taking into acount that the higher up you go in citizens and income the more the SSS will benefit you over the SM. Therefore the more you buy (which you will during a month) the further the SSS will give you the better benefit. In any case with just plain numbers you had there the SSS still gives you more income then the SM straight up. Now lets look at payback period.

SSS - $40,000,000 / $346,524.64 = 116 days

SM - $30,000,000 / $292,504.45 = 103 days

It is indeed true that the SM will pay for itself in less time then the SSS. But let's look further down the road.

SSS = $346,524.64 * 200 days = $69,304,928 - $40,000,000 = $29,304,928

SM = $292,504.45 * 200 days = $58,500,890 - $30,000,000 = $28,500,890

So... as you can see after 200 days the SSS will pass the SM in money made vs. purchase cost which makes the SSS still more for the dollar. The only way this can change is if the SM actually gave a significantly larger benefit then the SSS. This isn't taking into account that as you make more purchases the SSS will continue to outgrow SM in benefit.

As far as pushing back your wonder purchase period I am assuming this nation already has more then enough money for each wonder due their backlog and can easily afford both. If this is not the case then your walking a thin line between whether you should buy the wonder or not especially if you are going to mess up your backlog.