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An Open Letter to Frawley


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For those who are bored I suggest stepping out of your comfort zones, and try out micro politics or working your way up to government in a less active alliance. Anyone who was in one of the Orders is aware that there are dozens of ways to contribute to an alliance. But it takes work.

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2 minutes ago, Immortan Junka said:

For those who are bored I suggest stepping out of your comfort zones, and try out micro politics or working your way up to government in a less active alliance. Anyone who was in one of the Orders is aware that there are dozens of ways to contribute to an alliance. But it takes work.

 

I am only bored because MI6 stopped talking crap and I have nothing to go on... and because this thread is wayy too tame 

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Oculus leadership is, quite frankly, too busy congratulating themselves on their political victories, that they failed to realize they were not playing against anyone. Does Oculus inherently kill potential politics in (what is left of) the game? Absolutely. For Frawley, or anyone else, it is ridiculous to deny.

 

That being said, it was always destined to be the natural progression of things. As the active pool of players declines, as they have all been interacting for years  upon years, they all, OOC, LIKE each other. We can talk until we are blue in the face about IC vs OOC, but 99.999999% of ALL decisions made in game have been made by OOC personaes with no effort at all to play in an IC personae, because RP is such a niche thing. When it turns out that there are 100-200 active people and they have all known each other for years, they are going to congregate to each other, because their friendships have at least crossed a blurred IC-OOC line. It is why grudges no longer exist. It is why NPO and NpO are together now. The cause is simply that this game and its mechanics did not evolve as fast as interpersonal relationships evolved. The effect is that we have what we have now. The folly of it all does not fall on Frawley, or any other leadership of any alliance in Oculus. The only folly that these people are guilty of (if they actually think it)... is the belief that they have accomplished something. There is nothing at all left to accomplish in the gigantic circle-jerk that IS CN. The logs speak very clearly to that... nobody dislikes anybody else, and more and more people have alliance hopped to the point that everyone is friends with everyone in every alliance.

 

TL;DR : Oculus stagnates the game. Yes. It is NOT their fault. Their only fault is the tiresome self-congratulation that they give one another for what amounts to beating yourself in a game of checkers. (Chess would be too complex for the simplicity of the current CN world.)

 

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1 minute ago, Rush Sykes said:

Oculus leadership is, quite frankly, too busy congratulating themselves on their political victories, that they failed to realize they were not playing against anyone. Does Oculus inherently kill potential politics in (what is left of) the game? Absolutely. For Frawley, or anyone else, it is ridiculous to deny.

 

That being said, it was always destined to be the natural progression of things. As the active pool of players declines, as they have all been interacting for years  upon years, they all, OOC, LIKE each other. We can talk until we are blue in the face about IC vs OOC, but 99.999999% of ALL decisions made in game have been made by OOC personaes with no effort at all to play in an IC personae, because RP is such a niche thing. When it turns out that there are 100-200 active people and they have all known each other for years, they are going to congregate to each other, because their friendships have at least crossed a blurred IC-OOC line. It is why grudges no longer exist. It is why NPO and NpO are together now. The cause is simply that this game and its mechanics did not evolve as fast as interpersonal relationships evolved. The effect is that we have what we have now. The folly of it all does not fall on Frawley, or any other leadership of any alliance in Oculus. The only folly that these people are guilty of (if they actually think it)... is the belief that they have accomplished something. There is nothing at all left to accomplish in the gigantic circle-jerk that IS CN. The logs speak very clearly to that... nobody dislikes anybody else, and more and more people have alliance hopped to the point that everyone is friends with everyone in every alliance.

 

TL;DR : Oculus stagnates the game. Yes. It is NOT their fault. Their only fault is the tiresome self-congratulation that they give one another for what amounts to beating yourself in a game of checkers. (Chess would be too complex for the simplicity of the current CN world.)

 

 

 

This is coming from the same person against watching STA burn to the ground

 

 

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1 hour ago, Auctor said:

I really fail to see how Oculus not coming into existence would have somehow invalidated IRON, Umbrella, and VE's pacts with them or anyone else's pacts with IRON, Umbrella, VE.

It wouldn't of made any difference with IRON, Umbrella or VE  It may or may not of made a difference for the other members of Oculus who did not have ties in the same way that if Doom Kingdom and DBDC didn't have our ties to Oculus, RnR might of been able to get enough alliances to attack doom direct.  Clearly, that is something I would NOT of liked.  Therefore, no complaints on my end.

 

My point was just in response to Sarkin making a comment about Oculus and encouraging wars outside of the bloc  The fact is there are very few alliances that fit in the category of having no tie to Oculus, and understandably so.  So it really isn't an option generally speaking if one wants war. 

Edited by White Chocolate
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15 minutes ago, hartfw said:

 

But looking at the first and being honest. Monsters Inc has done more setting up interesting wars in the past few months than TTK has in its existence.  Correct me if I am wrong on that.  But they have in the past few months been attacking an Oculus protectorate, attacking Oculus directly, and attacking alongside Oculus and outside Oculus aa's.  They have hit people off a piat (preempting an uninvolved aa), and off an 'invite' for an oa(?).

 

 

 

You are largely correct on that, that's not something TTK does much of, personally I'm fine with not doing much for the moment, though if every alliance was like mine most of the time then I would either quit the game or try starting some !@#$, but that isn't the case and I'm in no hurry to roll or be rolled.

 

Comparing any alliance to MInc in that regard is a bit unfair TBH, since I don't think they have ceased to be at war since before I created my current nation.

 

I might respond to the rest of what you said tomorrow, for now I can't be bothered and don't have the time.

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12 minutes ago, Rush Sykes said:

TL;DR : Oculus stagnates the game. Yes. It is NOT their fault. Their only fault is the tiresome self-congratulation that they give one another for what amounts to beating yourself in a game of checkers. (Chess would be too complex for the simplicity of the current CN world.)

 

 

CN is not chess, it's Go.

 

  • In chess, the objective is to permanently remove enemy pieces from the game. That's not plausible most of the time here, unless you shoot for EZI, which is deeply unpopular and a huge drain of time and resources
  • In Go, the objective is to surround enemy pieces and control territory. This is a more apt description of planet bob's foreign affairs, as blocs and alliances ebb and flow in time.
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1 hour ago, Rush Sykes said:

 

I think you may have me confused with someone else.

 

no it was you. a hero in retirement disgraced at sitting in an alliance complaining and watching Oculus cut through like butter. I could pull up posts if you'd like for reference. (edit: i did)

 

It's the major problem on bob, old handbags like you are quick to criticize the hegemony, but are too old / unmotivated to roll back up your sleves and do something about it. 

 

"This is likely the move that will be the beginning of the end for Oculus. Seriously, whoever the Einsteins were that though this up, are complete amateurs who have suddenly found themselves in a position of relevance. Cannot believe NPO gov actually allowed this. It is probably a really good thing I am not in gov. My advice to the rest of ODN, if I run for office, it would be in  your best interest not to vote for me." -Old Man Rush

 

 

Edited by Lord Hitchcock
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21 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

 

no it was you. a hero in retirement disgraced at sitting in an alliance complaining and watching Oculus cut through like butter. I could pull up posts if you'd like for reference. (edit: i did)

 

It's the major problem on bob, old handbags like you are quick to criticize the hegemony, but are too old / unmotivated to roll back up your sleves and do something about it. 

 

"This is likely the move that will be the beginning of the end for Oculus. Seriously, whoever the Einsteins were that though this up, are complete amateurs who have suddenly found themselves in a position of relevance. Cannot believe NPO gov actually allowed this. It is probably a really good thing I am not in gov. My advice to the rest of ODN, if I run for office, it would be in  your best interest not to vote for me." -Old Man Rush

 

 

 

Are you intentionally obtuse or just intellectually challenged? I wonder which it is. Two things... first, the thread you linked had zero to do with STA, which you specifically mentioned in your previous post. Second, my only error in that post, which I have subsequently corrected on MANY occasions was overestimating the number of people left in the game who cared. In days past, that move, would indeed have been a moronic move by Oculus. Also, your assertion that I somehow "complained against STA (You meant TPF, you're welcome) burning" is patently absurd. Anyone who knows one freaking iota of my history knows  that , much like Mi6, rolling TPF is never EVER a bad option. I was commenting on the political capital that the move WOULD have cost, while, as I admitted, being in error of the value of political capital in this world where nobody cares. Do not try to fence with me little one, you are woefully outgunned.

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15 minutes ago, Rush Sykes said:

I admitted, being in error of the value of political capital in this world where nobody cares. Do not try to fence with me little one, you are woefully outgunned.

 

you still live in your "glory days"... put the cane down and bring about the change you want

 

...or at least focus on your daily dose of fiber, rather than today's politics.

 

You're too old to make a change Rush, which is pretty much the consensus of most of bob blaming Oculus for their short comings / inactivity

 

 

Edited by Lord Hitchcock
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8 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

 

you still live in your "glory days"... put the cane down and bring about the change you want

 

...or at least focus on your daily dose of fiber, rather than today's politics.

 

You're too old to make a change Rush, which is pretty much the consensus of most of bob blaming Oculus for their short comings.

 

 

I will go slow so you may have a chance to understand. First, I neither want, nor seek any change of any kind. The only way I would  want or seek any change is if I felt the urge to get involved. I do not. I will, however, publish my commentary on events and contrast them to the realities of days gone by because THAT is what entertains me. There is nothing at all, in the real of the political world, or in the mechanics of CN that can or will ever entice me back into caring enough to try to make things happen. So put and end to the incorrect assertion on your part that I need to bring about change that "I want." Now I realize because you post 60 or 70 times a day on a make believe political forum that MAYBE in total gets 200 posts a day, you feel like you are an important, maybe even integral part of what happens in CN. However, just so we are clear, let me make sure that you understand .... You are nothing. You have never been anything, and you will never be anything. You are small fish in an ever shrinking fish bowl. The scourge of 900 NS nations everywhere. If you have fun with what you are doing... hoorah for you. Much like you give your commentary on what is left of big boy politics (of which you know nothing), I will give my opinion on todays game (of which I know a plethora.) I neither seek, require, nor care about your approval. You are like the Senior Peon of Orgrimmar. Yes, you are the top of your line, but a peon nonetheless.

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2 minutes ago, Rush Sykes said:

I will go slow so you may have a chance to understand. First, I neither want, nor seek any change of any kind. The only way I would  want or seek any change is if I felt the urge to get involved. I do not. I will, however, publish my commentary on events and contrast them to the realities of days gone by because THAT is what entertains me. There is nothing at all, in the real of the political world, or in the mechanics of CN that can or will ever entice me back into caring enough to try to make things happen. So put and end to the incorrect assertion on your part that I need to bring about change that "I want." Now I realize because you post 60 or 70 times a day on a make believe political forum that MAYBE in total gets 200 posts a day, you feel like you are an important, maybe even integral part of what happens in CN. However, just so we are clear, let me make sure that you understand .... You are nothing. You have never been anything, and you will never be anything. You are small fish in an ever shrinking fish bowl. The scourge of 900 NS nations everywhere. If you have fun with what you are doing... hoorah for you. Much like you give your commentary on what is left of big boy politics (of which you know nothing), I will give my opinion on todays game (of which I know a plethora.) I neither seek, require, nor care about your approval. You are like the Senior Peon of Orgrimmar. Yes, you are the top of your line, but a peon nonetheless.

 

you're a washed up grump. and that pretty much reflects the OPs concerns.

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Amusing that we were listed as "in bed" with Oculus. I doubt you'd find many members of TBC who'd agree with that and when you look at our list of allies (NSO, RIA, NADC, PPO, Fark, NATO, NG, NpO), it doesn't scream Oculus to me. Sure, we get along well with our allies who are in (or lean towards) Oculus, but that's more due to the fact that they are actually still playing the game and we aren't interested in sitting around gaining pixels until Admin throws the "off" switch. To be brutally honest (and as Keres pointed out),  Oculus alliances/Oculus tied alliances have been outgoing and enjoyable to work with. Aside from NADC, I can't say the same for those thought of as on the "other side". As an alliance who, up until now, were considered mostly in the middle ... we were a perfect candidate for any sort of movement against the powers that be, especially considering the fact that a large portion of us were a big part of Karma. I'm not saying with 100% certainty that we'd have chosen that route, but I am saying that we didn't have a "side" previously and Oculus and their friends were more interested in bringing us closer to their sphere than others were. That simply tells me that Oculus are still playing and doing something (even if some of you hate it) while the majority of the world are not.

 

While I don't have anything against Oculus, I do find the idea of megablocs as boring and not something I personally enjoy. More power to those who do though and I'm not sure what those outside of the bloc are expecting. Are they supposed to step aside and let you defeat them? They are right in saying "Do something about it" and if that sounds familiar to you, then you were around pre-Karma because that's exactly what the powers that be said back then.

 

For those wanting change, you only have two options. 1. Wait until Oculus eventually turns on itself and pick a side then or 2. Try and gather as much NS as you can to take them down. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be enough organization or drive to accomplish the latter and that does not strike me Oculus' fault.

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7 hours ago, hartfw said:

The idea of Umbrella and Iron defending an ally isn't really related to Oculus at all.  They had those ties beforehand and would have defended beforehand.

 

Similarly, the idea of someone debating hitting an aa for lols without even a cb only to chicken out because they don't want to be hit by the aa's treaty partners isn't a new concept.

 

What you and Auctor are glossing over is Oculus' supremacy clause. 

 

Without Oculus, a war could have been arranged on Valhalla even with Umb/IRON defending them. Yes it would've taken a bit of diplomatic effort, but I'm sure getting a coalition together wouldn't have been impossible. But when you take into account that all of Oculus would be entering on Val's defense as first line of defense that really defeats any coalition before it gets off the ground.

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6 hours ago, Rush Sykes said:

Oculus leadership is, quite frankly, too busy congratulating themselves on their political victories, that they failed to realize they were not playing against anyone. Does Oculus inherently kill potential politics in (what is left of) the game? Absolutely. For Frawley, or anyone else, it is ridiculous to deny.

 

That being said, it was always destined to be the natural progression of things. As the active pool of players declines, as they have all been interacting for years  upon years, they all, OOC, LIKE each other. We can talk until we are blue in the face about IC vs OOC, but 99.999999% of ALL decisions made in game have been made by OOC personaes with no effort at all to play in an IC personae, because RP is such a niche thing. When it turns out that there are 100-200 active people and they have all known each other for years, they are going to congregate to each other, because their friendships have at least crossed a blurred IC-OOC line. It is why grudges no longer exist. It is why NPO and NpO are together now. The cause is simply that this game and its mechanics did not evolve as fast as interpersonal relationships evolved. The effect is that we have what we have now. The folly of it all does not fall on Frawley, or any other leadership of any alliance in Oculus. The only folly that these people are guilty of (if they actually think it)... is the belief that they have accomplished something. There is nothing at all left to accomplish in the gigantic circle-jerk that IS CN. The logs speak very clearly to that... nobody dislikes anybody else, and more and more people have alliance hopped to the point that everyone is friends with everyone in every alliance.

 

TL;DR : Oculus stagnates the game. Yes. It is NOT their fault. Their only fault is the tiresome self-congratulation that they give one another for what amounts to beating yourself in a game of checkers. (Chess would be too complex for the simplicity of the current CN world.)

 

I have to agree. But what was to be expected when the IC/OOC lines get blurry. 

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6 hours ago, Rush Sykes said:

Oculus leadership is, quite frankly, too busy congratulating themselves on their political victories, that they failed to realize they were not playing against anyone. Does Oculus inherently kill potential politics in (what is left of) the game? Absolutely. For Frawley, or anyone else, it is ridiculous to deny.

 

That being said, it was always destined to be the natural progression of things. As the active pool of players declines, as they have all been interacting for years  upon years, they all, OOC, LIKE each other. We can talk until we are blue in the face about IC vs OOC, but 99.999999% of ALL decisions made in game have been made by OOC personaes with no effort at all to play in an IC personae, because RP is such a niche thing. When it turns out that there are 100-200 active people and they have all known each other for years, they are going to congregate to each other, because their friendships have at least crossed a blurred IC-OOC line. It is why grudges no longer exist. It is why NPO and NpO are together now. The cause is simply that this game and its mechanics did not evolve as fast as interpersonal relationships evolved. The effect is that we have what we have now. The folly of it all does not fall on Frawley, or any other leadership of any alliance in Oculus. The only folly that these people are guilty of (if they actually think it)... is the belief that they have accomplished something. There is nothing at all left to accomplish in the gigantic circle-jerk that IS CN. The logs speak very clearly to that... nobody dislikes anybody else, and more and more people have alliance hopped to the point that everyone is friends with everyone in every alliance.

 

TL;DR : Oculus stagnates the game. Yes. It is NOT their fault. Their only fault is the tiresome self-congratulation that they give one another for what amounts to beating yourself in a game of checkers. (Chess would be too complex for the simplicity of the current CN world.)

 

I have to agree. But what was to be expected when the IC/OOC lines get blurry. 

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5 hours ago, Van Hoo III said:

Amusing that we were listed as "in bed" with Oculus. I doubt you'd find many members of TBC who'd agree with that and when you look at our list of allies (NSO, RIA, NADC, PPO, Fark, NATO, NG, NpO), it doesn't scream Oculus to me. Sure, we get along well with our allies who are in (or lean towards) Oculus, but that's more due to the fact that they are actually still playing the game and we aren't interested in sitting around gaining pixels until Admin throws the "off" switch. To be brutally honest (and as Keres pointed out),  Oculus alliances/Oculus tied alliances have been outgoing and enjoyable to work with. Aside from NADC, I can't say the same for those thought of as on the "other side". As an alliance who, up until now, were considered mostly in the middle ... we were a perfect candidate for any sort of movement against the powers that be, especially considering the fact that a large portion of us were a big part of Karma. I'm not saying with 100% certainty that we'd have chosen that route, but I am saying that we didn't have a "side" previously and Oculus and their friends were more interested in bringing us closer to their sphere than others were. That simply tells me that Oculus are still playing and doing something (even if some of you hate it) while the majority of the world are not.

 

While I don't have anything against Oculus, I do find the idea of megablocs as boring and not something I personally enjoy. More power to those who do though and I'm not sure what those outside of the bloc are expecting. Are they supposed to step aside and let you defeat them? They are right in saying "Do something about it" and if that sounds familiar to you, then you were around pre-Karma because that's exactly what the powers that be said back then.

 

For those wanting change, you only have two options. 1. Wait until Oculus eventually turns on itself and pick a side then or 2. Try and gather as much NS as you can to take them down. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be enough organization or drive to accomplish the latter and that does not strike me Oculus' fault.

 

I'm sorry, but you are fighting an aggressive war alongside NG (Oculus) and NpO (not in Oculus likely because of one of the secret clauses to the treaty, but near enough at this point) which is specifically condoned by NPO, that would pretty clearly seem to put you in bed with them to a lot of people. (Then again I suppose the same thing could be said about R&R and TPF, look what's going on there.)

 

I get that you have your own grudges with MI6, I respect that and your war should be quite an interesting one. I have nothing against what you are doing based on your own actions, but when you involve yourself in a war with Oculus against a known enemy of Oculus and the strongest alliance not directly tied to Oculus or Polaris. So being surprised that people others than Oculus weren't supportive when you want to attack a strong alliance that they might one day need f they are ever going to follow suggestion 2 is silly, why would anti-Oculus peeps be interested in helping you roll more anti-Oculus peeps? That would just be dumb.

 

I think you know the problem with 2 though; even if you assume you are successful with a lot of your negotiations to ever hope to get enough NS to make a dent you would have to speak to Oculus allies, some of whom would inevitably tell.

 

The CB used for the Invicta war them being "hostile" (no evidence), "associating with others hostile" (no evidence) and forming their own sphere, by which I assume they meant they and their allies signed some treaties over the last 6 months...

 

How you expect anyone to actually put together something given what happened to Invicta when they weren't even trying to do anything? Oculus would be like the guys sitting at 500 infra with all the wonders squashing new nations before they even become a semblance of a threat.

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8 hours ago, Blackatron said:

I get that you have your own grudges with MI6, I respect that and your war should be quite an interesting one. I have nothing against what you are doing based on your own actions, but when you involve yourself in a war with Oculus against a known enemy of Oculus and the strongest alliance not directly tied to Oculus or Polaris. 

 

NSO, Polar and NG, three of our allies asked us to jump in. The grudge we have against MI6 just made this so, so much sweeter. Its just not something anyone in their right minds would pass by... omfg this is better than sex... but I mean, it makes it all worth it itself even if its not WHY we're in this... An alliance of supposed friends decides to crap on every chance they get and this alliance is backed up in the corner alone when they could have at least been friendly with us after we bled for them in the last curbstomp? Hell yeah! Besides as has been said as far and being friendly,,, Over the last six months since TBC came together the NPO peoples have been pretty awesome, NG too...

 

That doesnt mean we're "in bed" with OC, again take a look at who we're treaties to... NADC who just signed with Sparta who are kind of in the middle of whats going on (treaty wise) right now on opposite sides of everything going on... yet NADC is just pretty awesome all around or FARK, PPO, RIA which are about the best friends you can have in the game... so yeah we're doing things based on the friends we make or have made and if it looks like a flustercuck in the end, so be it... noone here really gives a damn. We'll do all we can for them.

Edited by Keres
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It's hard to try to come up with a different aspect to focus on when you all seem to be concentrated on why Occulus is tying up, or not tying up the game.

 

Indulge me for a second, here. Forget occulus existed, and let's go back a few years. 

 

There were plenty of alliances and a ton of players joining everyday. Those new players didn't exactly know the game, or the preconceived notions, and established game play. There was enough players to start their own AAs, grow, and make mistakes. Some of these alliances even grew to become semi-big and could start wars by accident, or on purppurpose. 

 

There was a learning curve that wasn't steep for the game, the learning curve was very steep for the politics of the game. Once player retention, and growth stagnated, politics became entrenched, there was acceptable, and not acceptable means that were generally adhered to. With low numbers trickling into the game it became easier for alliances, and nations to adhere to these sets of rules that are "known".

 

Once the majority, besides a few bumps on the time line, started to generally follow the unwritten rules of the game, things began to stagnate. 

 

We as a community wrote the rules to see the game die. Occulus is just following the rules we wrote years before, this isn't a critique of occulus or an acceptance of them either.

 

Rather. A critique of the rules we have made for ourselves in this game. We have ourselves to blame for occulus being a huge game play stoppage (as I think they are, through no fault of their own, scare others into stopping their own play), of course I think he game would/could be able to pick up politically again if they weren't around, though thata not to say it's their fault. It's the natural evolution of the game, and our rules that lead to them being able to do what they have done.

 

I'm not saying bring back viceroy's, huge reps, but those aren't he things that killed the game, but rather drove politics in a way that shaped grudges, and FA directions for years to come, until the community decided agianst it, and focused more on the generally accepted game play we have now.

 

Im not sure if that happened now, if that would kill the game or spur on those who are left to right or their AAs, and friends they've made.

 

Besides all I've said, we also need new nations to keep coming to the game. It's the o my ay we can drive politics back to the forefront, because we need new ideas, grudges, and people to come to our world, and infuse some energy back into it, that hasn't been inundated by our lackadaisical rules that promote our lack of FA.

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