Imperial Decree - DBDC

[smurthwaite]

We may not be able to touch the Capitol, but we will make them bleed in the Districts.

 

o/ Dajobo

o/ Polaris

I don't know what's worse, that you made this allusion or that I understood it.

[Morgaine]

White Chocolate - "Oh yes, I know who you are Morgaine. :salute: You have my respect." Thank you. [I cannot seem to get the quoting to work, so:] Prodigal Moon - "But seriously, living at the mercy of others - who happen to be pretty damn ruthless in this case - isn't much to cling to. Rather die on my feet than live on my knees and all that." White Chocolate - "DBDC doesn't require anyone to live on their knees. That's more the style of an alliance with the word "Order" in it when they're at the top of our "right makes right" world. You're free to remain standing when you surrender. We're informal like that. :D" I recall about this time last year New Polar Order was at war with New Pacific Order who was supporting aggression as it typically does, using its allies to do its dirty work at first as usual. We had already been softened up by another alliance (Bear Force One) prior to the actual war being declared. Whether your alliance intended to or not, entering that war while it was in progress certainly served the interests of the Order who was the enemy of peace, and that was not us. http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Disorder_War The New Polar Order has its history (and no alliance is innocent of wrongdoing anymore), but nobody can cite us being involved in aggressive action for years. In the 3 years I have been here, we have minded our own business and responded defensively to aggression as anyone would. Let us remember who started this latest war and consider whose ultimate interest this latest "softening up" operation will ultimately serve. Any pretense that "DOOMBIRD DOOMCAVE" is standing up for the cause of righteousness against evil is therefore absurd on its face.

[ChairmanHal]

DBDC doesn't require anyone to live on their knees. That's more the style of an alliance with the word "Order" in it when they're at the top of our "right makes right" world. You're free to remain standing when you surrender. We're informal like that. :D

 

Meanwhile, alliances like the Knights of Ni! just see the new boss, same as the old boss.  Tech raiding and roguing are super cool as long as you are on the giving end.

 

Personally I see a definite difference in style, but the desire for control is the same.

[the rebel]

Tech raiding and roguing are super cool as long as you are on the giving end.

Funny you should say that, the leader of Doom Squad was crying his eyes out to me when I rogued him... They really don't like it when it happens to them.

[White Chocolate]

Let us remember who started this latest war and consider whose ultimate interest this latest "softening up" operation will ultimately serve. Any pretense that "DOOMBIRD DOOMCAVE" is standing up for the cause of righteousness against evil is therefore absurd on its face.

Allow me to clarify my personal view on the so-called "ethics" of this world. I'm well aware that DBDC is an aggressive alliance. Our actions against Polar are no exception. I am in not, nor do I claim to be, "righteous" at this point. But neither is NpO in its past or today, and frankly that is what needs to be for NpO to continue. IF there were ever an alliance or organization on Planet Bob that actually tried to follow a path of righteousness, it's was forced into nothingness long ago. The collective community of our world will not tolerate one. Taking into account your previous experience, I'm sure you can see the truth of this.

The idea that there is a "good" and a "bad" side to any given conflict is a lie. It's merely something leaders of alliances encourage their members to believe in order to inspire them to fight harder for the leader's own advantage. It helps maintain control.

Just look around - Doom Squad attacked Invicta "out of the blue" for what they stated is no reason at all. That is the perfect "CB" based on what the current "community standards" require and certainly defending an ally who has been attacked in that fashion is the "righteous" thing to do. Yet none of Invicta's allies have done so.

Nations of this world have been living under the same "community standards" since I've arrived here many years ago. However it is not about what is right, it's about maintaining power. The standards are throw out or applied as needed for political/military gain of the alliances involved. These standards are neither "good" or "evil" and ethics have no actual place in their creation. It's all about maintaining power.

What I love about Doombird Doomcave is that finally the world has a group that has enough power to no longer have to follow ancient "rules." It's about time!
 

Meanwhile, alliances like the Knights of Ni! just see the new boss, same as the old boss. Tech raiding and roguing are super cool as long as you are on the giving end.

Personally I see a definite difference in style, but the desire for control is the same.

Tech raiding is an excellent way to, you know, get technology. :D And in DBDC's case, land as well. Love that land! Edited November 17, 2014 by White Chocolate

[Rush Sykes]

Funny you should say that, the leader of Doom Squad was crying his eyes out to me when I rogued him... They really don't like it when it happens to them.

"Crying his eyes out" is what he was doing.

[Rokula]

Funny you should say that, the leader of Doom Squad was crying his eyes out to me when I rogued him... They really don't like it when it happens to them.

 

Spoiled brats tend to be the biggest crybabies.

[Morgaine]

White Chocolate -
"Allow me to clarify my personal view on the so-called "ethics" of this world. I'm well aware that DBDC is an aggressive alliance. Our actions against Polar are no exception. I am in not, nore do I claim to be, "righteous" at this point. But neither is NpO in its past or today, and frankly that is what needs to be for NpO to continue."

New Polar Order does not require aggression to continue and has not used it to grow in several years. In fact, I think that our alliance suffered for any past aggression in the long run. We do better at peace, minding our own business and engaging in trades and technology deals. The wars I have been involved in have been purely defensive, one of which was declared for "past grievances" that were committed before most of our members' nations even existed.

White Chocolate -
"IF there were ever an alliance or organization on Planet Bob that actually tried to follow a path of righteousness, it's was forced into nothingness long ago. The collective community of our world will not tolerate one. Taking into account your previous experience, I'm sure you can see the truth of this."

Indeed I do remember that having been in NONE and the League of Free nations. I joined New Polar Order specifically because it is not aggressive, nor is it vassal to any aggressors, nor does it serve the interests of aggressors. The internal workings are no-nonsense and its foreign policy is non-political.

(That is to be distinguished from "neutral." When discussing neutrals amongst ourselves, the consensus seems to be contempt, because they do not stand for anything and will stand idly by while aggression is perpetrated on others and are typically inept when defending themselves.)

In my experience, New Polar Order stands simply for defending ourselves, helping each other and not much else. That is very familiar and something I can get behind.


White Chocolate -
"The idea that there is a "good" and a "bad" side to any given conflict is a lie. It's merely something leaders of alliances encourage their members to believe in order to inspire them to fight harder for the leader's own advantage. It helps maintain control."

Neither our leaders nor our rank-and-file are talking about good and evil. I brought that up because you accused us of standing for "might makes right." That simply is not true. That is why I reviewed the previous war in which your alliance wittingly or not served the interest of an aggressive alliance that has and still does stand for "might makes right."

Likely this will be the case in the current war your alliance started also.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Morgaine

[Dre4mwe4ver]

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Disorder_War

The New Polar Order has its history (and no alliance is innocent of wrongdoing anymore), but nobody can cite us being involved in aggressive action for years. In the 3 years I have been here, we have minded our own business and responded defensively to aggression as anyone would.

It is surely a matter of opinion and perspective, but one can easily "cite [you] being involved in aggressive action."

Everyone defines "aggressive action" differently. I would consider starting a global war by declaring an aggressive war alongside two allies to be "aggressive action," while you, no doubt, would see it as defensive, due to the CB which you deem valid. Either way, it's probably best not to deal in absolutes.

[Gibsonator21]

It is surely a matter of opinion and perspective, but one can easily "cite [you] being involved in aggressive action."

Everyone defines "aggressive action" differently. I would consider starting a global war by declaring an aggressive war alongside two allies to be "aggressive action," while you, no doubt, would see it as defensive, due to the CB which you deem valid. Either way, it's probably best not to deal in absolutes.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

[White Chocolate]

Indeed I do remember that having been in NONE and the League of Free nations. I joined New Polar Order specifically because it is not aggressive, nor is it vassal to any aggressors, nor does it serve the interests of aggressors. The internal workings are no-nonsense and its foreign policy is non-political.

(That is to be distinguished from "neutral." When discussing neutrals amongst ourselves, the consensus seems to be contempt, because they do not stand for anything and will stand idly by while aggression is perpetrated on others and are typically inept when defending themselves.)

In my experience, New Polar Order stands simply for defending ourselves, helping each other and not much else. That is very familiar and something I can get behind.

Actually, the way you describe NpO and neutrals, NpO sounds more "neutral" than anything else right now to me. In fact, I wouldn't put it pass a neutral alliance to also make a statement like the OP in this case when dealing with a war started by DBDC.

If the consensus within NpO for neutrals is contempt - then NpO's leadership should show the rest of the world how they are any different, at least in the current conflict. Neutrals also defend themselves. PAX did when we attacked them. Neutrals also help each other, at least in terms of their internal membership anyway. I don't see Polar helping Supernova X or Invicta. Give me a reason why that isn't the case that is any better than what any other alliance would say given the same situation to show that NpO is anything more than typical.

Right now, the only difference is NpO has other allies on paper. So far in THIS conflict there has not been any action from NpO in defnese of any ally. Are all NpO's treaties optional now? Sure looks that way to me. :D Edited November 17, 2014 by White Chocolate

[OsRavan]

I recall about this time last year New Polar Order was at war with New Pacific Order who was supporting aggression as it typically does, using its allies to do its dirty work at first as usual. We had already been softened up by another alliance (Bear Force One) prior to the actual war being declared.

Whether your alliance intended to or not, entering that war while it was in progress certainly served the interests of the Order who was the enemy of peace, and that was not us.

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Disorder_War

The New Polar Order has its history (and no alliance is innocent of wrongdoing anymore), but nobody can cite us being involved in aggressive action for years. In the 3 years I have been here, we have minded our own business and responded defensively to aggression as anyone would.

Let us remember who started this latest war and consider whose ultimate interest this latest "softening up" operation will ultimately serve. Any pretense that "DOOMBIRD DOOMCAVE" is standing up for the cause of righteousness against evil is therefore absurd on its face.

 

 

Yeah, we have officially entered lala land here.   I feel like i'm in a bad 1984 rip off.  Up is down.  Black is white.  Are you actually saying that the disorder war.... where Polar aggressively attacked multiple people and NPO entered via an MDP was Pacifica supporting "aggressive action"?  If that's the case, than i'm pleased to see doomsphere defending themselves from Polar aggression this war.  Since clearly actually starting a war no longer counts as aggression.

 

Seriously dude.  You started the Disorder war with an aggressive attack (and lied about your reasons for going to war, but hey).   Then you held NPO hostage for a month and wouldn't let them surrender.  Then you extracted punishment terms for their having nations in pm (far less than I see most of your allies having this war).  How is that not being aggressive?   Its literally the definition of aggressive.

 

You would look a lot less foolish as an alliance if you stopped trying to pretend you were something you weren't.

[Morgaine]

The implication that "DOOMBIRD DOOMCAVE" is somehow fighting against "might makes right" by attacking New Polar Order remains unsupported. I do not deal in "absolutes" unless someone essentially accuses us of being bullies after launching an unprovoked sneak-attack that likely will ultimately serve the interests of the cause they purport to oppose.

 

If staying out of politics and reserving our armed forces for defense markes New Polar Order as "neutral" then so was NONE and the League of Free Nations. I strongly dispute that. What is not in dispute is that we will make attacks upon us costly. Anyone who has fought us, whether victor or not, knows that.

 

Regarding when and how our alliance leadership chooses to deploy our forces in defense of our allies, I trust in their judgment. There have been no announcements here that we will not honor any treaties. Within an alliance, forces will rarely be deployed all at once from the very beginning unless we have all been attacked.

 

If recent history serves as a guide, this will be a long wasteful war, which ultimately will fizzle out and have an inconclusive ending.

[Morgaine]

 

 

Yeah, we have officially entered lala land here.   I feel like i'm in a bad 1984 rip off.  Up is down.  Black is white.  Are you actually saying that the disorder war.... where Polar aggressively attacked multiple people and NPO entered via an MDP was Pacifica supporting "aggressive action"?  If that's the case, than i'm pleased to see doomsphere defending themselves from Polar aggression this war.  Since clearly actually starting a war no longer counts as aggression.

 

Seriously dude.  You started the Disorder war with an aggressive attack (and lied about your reasons for going to war, but hey).   Then you held NPO hostage for a month and wouldn't let them surrender.  Then you extracted punishment terms for their having nations in pm (far less than I see most of your allies having this war).  How is that not being aggressive?   Its literally the definition of aggressive.

 

You would look a lot less foolish as an alliance if you stopped trying to pretend you were something you weren't.

 

Anyone reading that Wiki can see that New Polar Order entered that war pre-emptively because of an imminent attack, which New Pacific Order was orchestrating. I do not think even they would appreciate them being depicted as victims. Your selective memory on the terms of surrender omits that the intention was to make it so any further mischief on their part would be delayed somewhat.

[OsRavan]

 

Anyone reading that Wiki can see that New Polar Order entered that war pre-emptively because of an imminent attack, which New Pacific Order was orchestrating. I do not think even they would appreciate them being depicted as victims. Your selective memory on the terms of surrender omits that the intention was to make it so any further mischief on their part would be delayed somewhat.

 

Yeah, I have to assume this is an act/you are being the Bob version of a political hack.  Cause otherwise this is just sad.    And, I can only hope you didn't actually hear this storyline from your own leaders.

 

Cause the irony is, if Daj or anyone else in Polar leadership is claiming to polar members that they started  Disorder  due to some secret Pacifica planned attack on polar.... than it actually would make me rethink my opinion on them.  Cause I doubt your own leaders could say that with a straight face... and would be petty bankrupt in the honor department if they tried.  Hell, you didn't even try to sell that in the trumped up fake CB you used to start things.  Ridiculous.

 

And is it now Polar's policy that if you are worried about an alliance creating 'mischief' its ok to level harsh terms on them?  If so, i'm sure I will keep that in mind at the end of this war.

Edited November 17, 2014 by OsRavan

[the rebel]

"Crying his eyes out" is what he was doing.

Indeed, pleading not to get nuked / trying to make deals / running for a sanction / rolling over like a dead dog...

That was their leader. Pathetic really. But I'm not surprised that you turned up cheer leading.

[Morgaine]

 

Yeah, I have to assume this is an act/you are being the Bob version of a political hack.  Cause otherwise this is just sad.    And, I can only hope you didn't actually hear this storyline from your own leaders.

 

Cause the irony is, if Daj or anyone else in Polar leadership is claiming to polar members that they started  Disorder  due to some secret Pacifica planned attack on polar.... than it actually would make me rethink my opinion on them.  Cause I doubt your own leaders could say that with a straight face... and would be petty bankrupt in the honor department if they tried.  Hell, you didn't even try to sell that in the trumped up fake CB you used to start things.  Ridiculous.

 

And is it now Polar's policy that if you are worried about an alliance creating 'mischief' its ok to level harsh terms on them?  If so, i'm sure I will keep that in mind at the end of this war.

 

I am basing my assessment on the wiki, not propaganda from our leaders as you imply. I have a mind of my own, thank you very much.

 

Also, it is New Pacific Order that has a history of issuing punitive terms with the intent of destroying entire alliances and driving hundreds of nations from the Planet. They and their allies were quite well in the aftermath of last year's war.

 

My interpretation of what the objective of the surrender terms in last year's war are only mine. Otherwise, they would have come out of the war largely unscathed and politically and economically able to foment more aggression the very next day after the war ended.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Morgaine

[saxasm]

The implication that "DOOMBIRD DOOMCAVE" is somehow fighting against "might makes right" by attacking New Polar Order remains unsupported. I do not deal in "absolutes" unless someone essentially accuses us of being bullies after launching an unprovoked sneak-attack that likely will ultimately serve the interests of the cause they purport to oppose.
 
If staying out of politics and reserving our armed forces for defense markes New Polar Order as "neutral" then so was NONE and the League of Free Nations. I strongly dispute that. What is not in dispute is that we will make attacks upon us costly. Anyone who has fought us, whether victor or not, knows that.
 
Regarding when and how our alliance leadership chooses to deploy our forces in defense of our allies, I trust in their judgment. There have been no announcements here that we will not honor any treaties. Within an alliance, forces will rarely be deployed all at once from the very beginning unless we have all been attacked.
 
If recent history serves as a guide, this will be a long wasteful war, which ultimately will fizzle out and have an inconclusive ending.

Are you seriously claiming that NpO stays out of politics? That you are a purely defensive alliance? Excuse me, but that is absolutely delusional. No one who knows anything about the history of this planet could say that with a straight face.
 
 

I am basing my assessment on the wiki, not propaganda from our leaders as you imply. I have a mind of my own, thank you very much.
 
Also, it is New Pacific Order that has a history of issuing punitive terms with the intent of destroying entire alliances and driving hundreds of nations from the Planet. They and their allies were quite well in the aftermath of last year's war.
 
My interpretation of what the objective of the surrender terms in last year's war are only mine. Otherwise, they would have come out of the war largely unscathed and politically and economically able to foment more aggression the very next day after the war ended.

In case you are unaware, we have already clearly stated that we will demand no reps at all in this war. In the last war in which Pacifica was on the winning side, there were no terms at all. In the war before that, the only terms were that the losing side not reenter the conflict. On the other hand, in the last war Polar won, serious terms were imposed on an alliance which was not even the official target of the war.

Would you really have me believe that NpO were nobly protecting the world from the harsh terms Pacifica imposes?

[smurthwaite]

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Greatest irony ever.  Probably, given that it is an absolute.  Proof enough that both sides are the dark side, I guess.

[Morgaine]

Are you seriously claiming that NpO stays out of politics? That you are a purely defensive alliance? Excuse me, but that is absolutely delusional. No one who knows anything about the history of this planet could say that with a straight face.
 
 
In case you are unaware, we have already clearly stated that we will demand no reps at all in this war. In the last war in which Pacifica was on the winning side, there were no terms at all. In the war before that, the only terms were that the losing side not reenter the conflict. On the other hand, in the last war Polar won, serious terms were imposed on an alliance which was not even the official target of the war.

Would you really have me believe that NpO were nobly protecting the world from the harsh terms Pacifica imposes?

 

I am just an unranked member and not privvy to political discussions in the upper echelons. I can say that within the ranks, we are not scheming or even complaining about how we dislike this alliance or that. I doubt that our leaders are either. Our discussions are practical and oriented toward what is happening now. What happened in the past is only relevent when assessing why our enemies are choosing to attack us now. Which is a complete mystery.

 

I am also professing no "nobility" of our alliance. I am saying that we are not looking or trouble, but will deal with it appropriately if it comes our way. I would not be in New Polar Order otherwise.

 

Your name-calling and personal attacks are not serving to undermine my confidence in my own judgment, nor in that of our leadership. That you find it necessary to resort to this does make me question your knowledge and motivations, however.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Morgaine

[Garion]

I am basing my assessment on the wiki, not propaganda from our leaders as you imply. I have a mind of my own, thank you very much.
 
Also, it is New Pacific Order that has a history of issuing punitive terms with the intent of destroying entire alliances and driving hundreds of nations from the Planet. They and their allies were quite well in the aftermath of last year's war.

With last instance being... 2008? 2007?
 
Bob has not seen anything resembling terms (if we don't consider post-war NAPs, of course) since the Grudge War. You should remember because it was NpO that paid them. By supporting them you did yourself no favor, imo.

[White Chocolate]

The implication that "DOOMBIRD DOOMCAVE" is somehow fighting against "might makes right" by attacking New Polar Order remains unsupported.

I'm not implying that Doombird Doomcave is fighting against might makes right by attacking anyone or fighting against any other political stance for that matter. Might makes right is just how things work on Planet Bob. If we're here or not doesn't change that in any way.

What we're doing is taking advantage of the fact that regardless of the crap that "the powers that be" tell their alliance membership, the so called "politics" here ultimantly come down to the following: "I'm bigger than you, therefore I call the shots."

Unlike others, we're also not saying that anyone else needs to do what we do. It makes no difference to us. If we have a goal, it's just to maintain enough power to avoid having to follow other alliance's imposed rules.

[Morgaine]

With last instance being... 2008? 2007?
 
Bob has not seen anything resembling terms (if we don't consider post-war NAPs, of course) since the Grudge War. You should remember because it was NpO that paid them. By supporting them you did yourself no favor, imo.

 

Are you saying that I should not have paid "reparations" in the Grudge War as ordered by our leadership? I did not see that there was any choice short of leaving the alliance. We were the ones attacked then.

If you are referring to aggression perpetrated by New Polar Order years prior, I already said that no alliance can claim to innocence. As White Chocolate had said, the last alliance that stood purely for sovereignty and defense was exterminated years ago. I know. I was there. I joined my allies in allowing our original nations to be deleted rather than comply,

[Morgaine]

I'm not implying that Doombird Doomcave is fighting against might makes right by attacking anyone or fighting against any other political stance for that matter. Might makes right is just how things work on Planet Bob. If we're here or not doesn't change that in any way.

What we're doing is taking advantage of the fact that regardless of the crap that "the powers that be" tell their alliance membership, the so called "politics" here ultimantly come down to the following: "I'm bigger than you, therefore I call the shots."

Unlike others, we're also not saying that anyone else needs to do what we do. It makes no difference to us. If we have a goal, it's just to maintain enough power to avoid having to follow other alliance's imposed rules.

 

 

I do not see how attacking New Polar Order accomplishes the security or sovereignty you profess to desire. Actually, your alliance is repeatedly showing itself to be a threat to the peace and is also serving the interests of others who do indeed have ambitions of "calling the shots" based upon the ability to impose force as you say. Making yourselves once again into a problem to be dealt with by groups that would otherwise leave you alone might not yield what you want.

 

Your alliance's actions and the results of these actions do not comport with your espoused values.

[Garion]

Are you saying that I should not have paid "reparations" in the Grudge War as ordered by our leadership? I did not see that there was any choice short of leaving the alliance. We were the ones attacked then.

If you are referring to aggression perpetrated by New Polar Order years prior, I already said that no alliance can claim to innocence. As White Chocolate had said, the last alliance that stood purely for sovereignty and defense was exterminated years ago. I know. I was there. I joined my allies in allowing our original nations to be deleted rather than comply,

It was more a desire to counter your "NPO is well known for oppressing people" point.