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Returning to the Old Ways


Mara Lithaen

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RP2 doesnt change the multiple based off NS, and the only reason any nation over 50k even gets the slight gradual troop bonuses is due to eva's whining when we were deciding the rules.

 
 

Lower NS players also aren't keeping an additional thousands of aircraft and hundreds of ships simply by slipping into peace mode.

Please provide me with proof of me pressing for this. Because I'm pretty sure it was not me.

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Please provide me with proof of me pressing for this. Because I'm pretty sure it was not me.

I'm not going to dig through several hundred text files simply to prove it, you were certainly in favor of giving anyone over 50k more than the 50k limit though. 

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http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/122131-community-role-play-over-50k-nation-discussion/?p=3263798

 

Here you have the origin of your tiered caps, please note my reply to it. Additionally, here:

 

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/121763-cnrp2-over-50k-nation-rule-discussion/?p=3256539

 

I have at all times advocated that the correct response to NS disparities would be to have upper and lower caps on what anyone can have, for greater equality, as I see it as a fairer and less exclusive way of solving these problems, instead of kicking people out.

 

Well if it makes you feel any better I also supported the hard cap.

Noted. But to make me feel better you could drop trying to argue I'd be the one advocating for the 50k+ benefits here.

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You're not evil for thinking it, just wrong in my opinion.  There are other national simulation games with RP in them, and when I've watched hem, when you allow RP alone to define !@#$, you end up with older nations in an arms race of the absolute absurd, 3000 super dreadnaughts 2 kilometers long each with 800 mm cannons and !@#$.  
 
I like CN RPs nation RP because even though I've been a small-mid size nation to a large nation to the largest nation, I've always felt there is an even keel on where people stand.  I think the missile numbers in CN RP 2 are a perfect example of a race to absurdum.  One player says I feel I should be the strongest so I should have way more of this than any country has ever brought ever combined.  Naturally despite what that player may think he or she's policies may not be so benevolent to the rest of the game, so some other nations should then also start an arms race and seek to get those capabilities.  Of course player one gets offended and ramps up production even more cause they are paranoid.  So then the others ramp up production more, and its gets to sheer ridiculousness.
 
And then of course if someone new comes in, the legacy players can say, 'Oh well I started this months ago, so you can't catch me' so you create a perma elite.
 
Both systems have their flaws, I support one where each player doesn't have an incentive to escalate arbitrarily imposed limits.


The tech race garbage will be fixed as soon as we make custom tech optional.

The stuff about having ridiculous amounts of armaments seems like a moderation issue. If someone has "ridiculous" amounts of something and they haven't put in substantial prior, realistic RP, then they shouldn't be able to have it.
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I wouldn't mind the above Tidy.. or a war is only an option if mutually agreed to for rp purposes, not to play risk rule.

 

Allow people the option when they roll a nation, a 1 time only option to stay neutral. Once they opt out of it, it's gone unless they reroll. They can sit there and quietly rp sugar beet production quotas till their faces fall off so long as they aren't physically attacking anyone. 

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Can we make a ruling to prevent people having to read 50+ pages or longer journals on how to find out what the capabilities of one MISSILE can do and just base it on a cursory glance at Wikipedia?

 

Well they could also just read the sections within it they were guided to... those are a good deal shorter.

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I really just don't understand this senseless hateboner some of you have for nations over 50k NS. It's so arbitrary and dumb, and implies that... what, sub-50k nations are never war-mongering, or petty, or toxic? A banlist is an even worse idea, since we all know 90 per cent of the people proposed to be on said list would just be put forth out of spite rather than for any real reason.

There's something not too fun about RPing in a small square of Saharan desert because three super empires all allied to each othercontrol all the culturally interesting land and will destroy anyone who sneezes near them.

A more equal RP allows for smarter play, not just "Stop doing that or I'll bomb you." A more equal RP can give us better situations to navigate besides coalition vs rogue nation or superfleet vs row boats. Its boring. CNRP is so ridiculously boring and just entirely unappealing to anyone who hasn't squatted on a plot of land for six years. Edited by Fizzydog
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There's something not too fun about RPing in a small square of Saharan desert because three super empires all allied to each othercontrol all the culturally interesting land and will destroy anyone who sneezes near them.

A more equal RP allows for smarter play, not just "Stop doing that or I'll bomb you." A more equal RP can give us better situations to navigate besides coalition vs rogue nation or superfleet vs row boats. Its boring. CNRP is so ridiculously boring and just entirely unappealing to anyone who hasn't squatted on a plot of land for six years.

There are measures towards equalisation, by capping the nations above 50k NS, so they don't become super empires. Yet, some still advocate that 50k+ people should be shut out.

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what if who became powerful wasn't based on knowledge of tech ooc

what if who won wars wasn't based on experience with warring

what if we based our rp outcomes on what would actually happen and stop solving disputes via "whoever can war the best wins the war"

what if this was actually a rp

lol

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what if who became powerful wasn't based on knowledge of tech ooc

what if who won wars wasn't based on experience with warring

what if we based our rp outcomes on what would actually happen and stop solving disputes via "whoever can war the best wins the war"

what if this was actually a rp

lol

I dunno, that sounds exactly what CNRP2 was created for.

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I just realised I made this post in the wrong topic, so shifted it here:

 

The old days when people would just shut up and go RP their nations, instead of cluttering the board with OOC... Oh, wait. Those times pretty much never existed during my few years in CNRP (and the few months of CNRP2). At least not, when the war had not been some pre-agreed one. And no, this isn't me advocating preplanning, because pre-planning is not an actual solution.

 

Just for those who weren't around, as well as for the few that were around and forgot, preplanning essentially meant, both parties had to sit down prior to the war, and try to work out any and all things they wanted preplanned. Could range from the entire course and outcome of war, to exactly nothing. Both sides had to agree to these pre-planned arrangements, if one side used it to just decline a war, a waiver wa handed out. What happened? Lo and behold, the whole system just brought in more OOC disputes and the system never really worked. I can remember the one time I actually went through a preplanned war with Cent. I pretty much just used the pre-planning to work out that no characters be harmed, then surrendered to pre-agreed terms, estimating that at that point, declining to fight a war I'd lose at least would prevent Cent from having the fun of fighting.

 

Preplanning without the waiver clause of couse would mean different results, but it'd just be retarded, because a person could just outright refuse a war. And while it sounds like the happy times for the small guy, it just as well means happiness of the land hoarders. Stay long enough, gobble up half a continent, be immune to anything that could be ever done to prevent the spread. Bonus points if you then start posting every 20th day, except if it is the two lines per day to annex stuff.

 

To have a war based on RP and not on who wars best is going to happen, at best, between two people who don't give a damn about outcomes and who most likely don't have some high degree of knowledge on how to conduct successful warfare (for example Shammy vs Tricent was a pretty non-problematic war, with outcmes based on superior strategy and tactcs, though with some character RP interspersed.). So, it's pretty much people like Kevz and Curri, who tend to not care too much about their nations, fighting against adversaries who don't fear the outcome.

 

The issue with basing outcomes on whoever has the better strategy and can better source their stuff is, that it is not a perfect system. It can be a terrible system for RP. But, its alternatives are not much better. Replacing the "who wars best" with "who RPs best" is maybe fine in theory, but how is this judged? It's a nice catch phrase, but it was used before and has no history of actually working for competitive conflicts. And the other alternative is, to base it on "who whines best", which is what makes wars the OOC ordeals they are, because you'll always find the assymetric warfare of sides starting out with basing stuff on IC movements, with the first side that notices it is at a disadvantage starting to take it to the OOC and the other one following suit, in order to prevent OOC-induced IC issues. It's just like what conflicts between Triyun and Mogar have been the past few years, when Mogar complains about Triyun rolling him IC and Triyun complains about Mogar taking fights OOC. And both sides then at some point argue that they are hostile in one realm, because the other is an !@#$%^& in the other one.

 

And compared to "who whines best" (or loudest), basing things on strategy, that can and should be able to be sourced if necessary, is pretty much an attempt to find something where you can make rulings based on somewhat objective standards, on that it just was a better plan, not that it was the plan that caused me the most headache as a GM. It's basically a meritocracy over a mob rule. Meritocracy means not equality, because some will be better off, some will be worse off. It is not even equal opportunity, as those with more favorable backgrounds are better off than those without. But it sounds a good deal better and more orderly than leaving things to "popular opinion" and letting things be decided on numbers and aggressiveness of people who bash each other in the OOC arena. To base it on RP is some utopian notion, that would work, if wars would only be started out of cooperative nature. But that's not the case...

 

Likewise, there exists no "good old time" of when the 50k+ people weren't around causing issues. For starters, 50k+ people were part of the RP community pretty quickly after the RP was founded, influencing the community since its early days. Additionally, the sole reason 50k+ people managed to stand out is not because they are all terrible, but because pretty much everyone with 50k or more NS is living at the caps and thus has naturally influence. Not an awful lot, but still. What actually creates the influence that people wield is diplomatic ties, reputation and effectiveness. People who seek to avoid war with Triyun don't just do so, because he's at the caps. They do so, because they know that Triyun has the ability to find allies, that Triyun has shown in the past to have a good track record of winning and he's shown to be able to use his numbers at least better than the average person. This combined with that he's generally a reliable diplomatic partner in an agreement is what makes Triyun an influential nation as enemy, as well as ally. For all there is, you could cap nations at 500k soldiers, he'd still be important. This does however not mean all 50k+ people are problematic or no 50k- people can cause issues. You could cap the 50k+ people at 500k soldiers and up to now, it'd actually play out the exact same in this war.

 

Of course, while blanket banning of all 50k+ people is not really the greatest idea, neither is banning people. What currently prevents votes most is that Voodoo declines any and all votes and stated so, so people don't even try. Also, there's the matter that for example Mogar stated, he's concerned there might not be the necessary majority, due to the number of people supporting Triyun with votes. Thing is, if around half of the people would vote a person out, there's still a half left that wouldn't. And theoretically, if we were to abolish GM blockade and supermajority for votes, then we'd sooner or later end up with Triyun and Mogar kicked, maybe also a couple others, because they can be branded "main troublemakers". Does it improve the community? I mean, personally, I know some people whom I'd not miss, if they were gone. But honestly, it's not going to help, is it? It actually is just souring the community even more than already is the case.

 

In general, what needs actual fixing, is not as much the player lists or the way strategy is involved. It's the way we conduct the OOC interactions. I know exactly one person in this community that is actually making some kind of effort to not screw one side over, which is Voodoo as a GM. Maybe because he doesn't want complaints, maybe because he's nice at heart, but he's got complaints from both sides and tries to process them somewhat fairly. But, with this, he's pretty much alone, as more and more people seem to not care by the day. And we can do something about it, or let it run its course. To me, it looks like we are now at the point where we rather adopt simplistic "solutions" and start faulting people and catchphrases (e.g. technobabble), instead of addressing what's actually wrong. If people actually wanted to fix the RP, they'd tone down the OOC to levels where it isn't eroding the community cohesion (or what is left of it). And then they might seek for solutions for preventing a future escalation like this one IC and OOC.

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[23:00:04] <Voodoo> I should probably wipe the whole fucking thing
[23:00:18] <Voodoo> Now that Mogar admitted it was OOC
 
seems pretty unbiased, especially considering I have multiple valid IC reasons to be involving in anything that involves France, anything that involves GLR, anything that involves Alvonia, and generally anything that fucks up my main export market.
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