Beauty Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) After several minutes of preparation, a certain Agent Rudolf Jordan entered the plexiglass room and began to interrogate the Ukrainian. Agent Jordan introduced himself to Director Wilding as an agent with nearly 5 years of experience working in the intelligence community, and greatly thanked Director Wilding for the opportunity to work for the Alvonian government. According to him, Jordan was fluent in German, Ukrainian, Russian and Finnish, although his Finnish was not as good as the others. "So, let's start easy," Agent Jordan began, "tell me your name, all for the record." "Mykola Alexey Chownyk." "And where are you from?" "Ukraine." "I see, and Mr. Chownyk, please tell me, how did you get access to records of former Wehrmacht soldiers?" 1) The Bolded part at first is Roleplaying someone's citizens. 2) The Bolded Italicized can be used as a false flag operation by claiming fake citizenships/whatever. 3) The above is classified, and mentioning someone is a Ukrainian Citizen is roleplaying someone's citizens. Saying it is different and can be seen as a false flag operation. An action and words are two different things Rudolph, Zoot, FHIC, and Markus do we agree now that it is in public? or no? [19:23] <%FHIC> It's called a False Flag operation [19:24] <%FHIC> Look it up [19:24] <~Rudolph> It's called False Flag operations [19:24] <+Zoot> ICly, Markus can claim whatever he wants, it was an alvonian citizen he is claiming to be ukrainian [19:25] <~Rudolph> ^ [19:25] <~Rudolph> Ding Ding Ding [19:25] <~Rudolph> What Zoot said Now Rudolph, Zoot, FHIC, and Markus do we really need to vote on this? Edited June 17, 2014 by Rotavele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Enema Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 It's called a false flag operation, look it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beauty Posted June 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) It's called a false flag operation, look it up. False flag (or black flag) describes covert military or paramilitary operations designed to deceive in such a way that the operations appear as though they are being carried out by entities, groups or nations other than those who actually planned and executed them. Operations carried during peace-time by civilian organizations, as well as covert government agencies, may by extension be called false flag operations if they seek to hide the real organization behind an operation. Geraint Hughes uses the term to refer to those acts carried out by "military or security force personnel, which are then blamed on terrorists." Nothing about taking a citizen of a nation and having them commit acts, then blaming it on that nation. The citizen he has is Ukranian via action and roleplay, not via "A ukranian attacked us" Edited June 17, 2014 by Rotavele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Enema Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Or maybe its a fake ukrainian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beauty Posted June 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) Or maybe its a fake ukrainian? Then that needs to be roleplayed instead of powergamed. Edited June 17, 2014 by Rotavele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Alright, so first of all I don't think character RP should be constrained to every single rule that applies to national RP. Second of all, I've already RPed that the Alvonian intelligence community has had problems with false information and misleads. Third, as I've said, I didn't even decide where the guy was from until the day before I wrote the post. So, I really think this post should be taken with a grain of salt. Nothing in there is reflected that much in my national RP. I only started suspecting the CDT bloc of possible conflict when communism popped up and the Ukraine started talking about helping Hawaii after their rapture. That's all IC stuff. I don't care what the hell you do OOC, don't be a jerk to me, I won't be a jerk to you. Simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beauty Posted June 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Alright, so first of all I don't think character RP should be constrained to every single rule that applies to national RP. Second of all, I've already RPed that the Alvonian intelligence community has had problems with false information and misleads. Third, as I've said, I didn't even decide where the guy was from until the day before I wrote the post. So, I really think this post should be taken with a grain of salt. Nothing in there is reflected that much in my national RP. I only started suspecting the CDT bloc of possible conflict when communism popped up and the Ukraine started talking about helping Hawaii after their rapture. That's all IC stuff. I don't care what the hell you do OOC, don't be a jerk to me, I won't be a jerk to you. Simple as that. Then you need to roleplay "Looked at the alvonian" and such. Not Ukranian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Why? That entire post is from Wilding's point of view. He doesn't know that the man in that room isn't Ukrainian. He's just been told what his intelligence agents know, which is, by all accounts, is a Ukrainian man acting suspiciously in Alvonia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beauty Posted June 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Why? That entire post is from Wilding's point of view. He doesn't know that the man in that room isn't Ukrainian. He's just been told what his intelligence agents know, which is, by all accounts, is a Ukrainian man acting suspiciously in Alvonia. Then you could say a citizen. The way you say Ukrainian Citizen can lead to readers being biased into thinking I really did something I did not. It's still role playing someone's citizens. You'd be the first one to cry about it if it was done to you. You're only doing it because of OOC problems against myself. It doesn't take an idoit to see that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEDCJT Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 This is making a mountain out of a molehill, methinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beauty Posted June 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 This is making a mountain out of a molehill, methinks. If I had done it, it would have been immediately retconned. i thank you for not saying something in bias for Markus though. I think I was wrong about you before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Enema Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Far be it for me to publicly agree with rooter, but... Or even seem to agree for that matter. But.. what i would have done is said, "The man seemingly appears to be Ukrainian given the (evidence inserted here)." Or something like that. That way you aren't outright saying he's ukrainian, you just believe him to be he's ukrainian and you state why you think this is the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euphaia Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) I got scolded in CNRP1 for Rping something far, far less, that only amounted to very brief, very limited pleasantries/fluff that didn't affect anything. With the utmost respect to the GMs, and to Markus, it's only fair that the rules be applied evenly to everyone. Edited June 17, 2014 by Euphaia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biohazard Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 He's basically just trying to create a valid (from Alvonia's PoV) CB on Ukraine. Nations do this all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euphaia Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Yes. He, as you and I and everybody else, has to do it while being respectful of Rotavele's characters, and with respect towards the rules of the Rp. I learned the same lesson a few months ago, Lynneth and Shammy can attest to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiserMelech Mikhail Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 He's basically just trying to create a valid (from Alvonia's PoV) CB on Ukraine. Nations do this all the time."All the time" is really an overstatement. False flag operations are tough to pull off because the require two things to happen perfectly.1. Your plan needs to actually work. This happens less frequently that expected. False flag plans, especially in the latter half of the 20th century, have a very bad track record.2. Your population has to be either stupid enough to accept the lie, or already itching for war in the first place. This is why the "false flag" operation that Germany blamed on Poland in 1939 was successful. Either the people were so brainwashed that they believed whatever the nazis told them, or they were so nationalistic that they didn't need an excuse to go to war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beauty Posted June 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 "All the time" is really an overstatement. False flag operations are tough to pull off because the require two things to happen perfectly. 1. Your plan needs to actually work. This happens less frequently that expected. False flag plans, especially in the latter half of the 20th century, have a very bad track record. 2. Your population has to be either stupid enough to accept the lie, or already itching for war in the first place. This is why the "false flag" operation that Germany blamed on Poland in 1939 was successful. Either the people were so brainwashed that they believed whatever the nazis told them, or they were so nationalistic that they didn't need an excuse to go to war. Alvonia calls his government the Wehrmacht so... I mean its kind of plausible? (Just being fair) but he'd need to RP the brainwashing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Enema Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 They are Germans, not going to take that much to get them to believe in a dictator. /me zings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Alvonia calls his government the Wehrmacht so... I mean its kind of plausible? (Just being fair) but he'd need to RP the brainwashing. The armed forces is called the Wehrmacht. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangeline Anovilis Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 2. Your population has to be either stupid enough to accept the lie, or already itching for war in the first place. This is why the "false flag" operation that Germany blamed on Poland in 1939 was successful. Either the people were so brainwashed that they believed whatever the nazis told them, or they were so nationalistic that they didn't need an excuse to go to war. I might comment that the staged attack on a radio station in Gleiwitz, Silesia, was a failure, not a success. More than just for the Germans, it was for the international press, where it utterly failed to keep the Entente away (despite the phony war). In Germany itself, the war needed much less justification than that, given the overall "might makes right" attitude of national socialist ideology, there was a whole apparatus of secret police to root out dissenters and with the dictatorial rule, it was not up to the people to make a decision on the war. Still, the war was rather unpopular within Germany, people had not forgotten the last war, which was miserable, and people were neither happy about getting drafted, nor about rationing of wares important for the war effort. Even within the Nazi party, the war was far less welcomed as most would believe. Overall, the plan of Hitler and his closer circle had been war by around 1945, when a strong militarised and mechanised Germany could take on the USSR. Not by 1939, where on paper Germany would even struggle against France. It was a gross miscalculation in the foreign affairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Yes. He, as you and I and everybody else, has to do it while being respectful of Rotavele's characters, and with respect towards the rules of the Rp.I learned the same lesson a few months ago, Lynneth and Shammy can attest to it. I agree with Euphaia here. If it really isn't a case of RPing Rota's characters, just go change a few words to make that more evident and keep on trucking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 I guess I have a problem with RPing other people's citizens. Alrighty then. That being said, it seems silly (to me, at least) to have to go back now to change that when the RP in question is now over and doesn't really affect anything. I was honestly surprised this was even brought up again, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euphaia Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Well, yeah, you're right, it's over now. More of an FYI for future reference. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beauty Posted June 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 I guess I have a problem with RPing other people's citizens. Alrighty then. That being said, it seems silly (to me, at least) to have to go back now to change that when the RP in question is now over and doesn't really affect anything. I was honestly surprised this was even brought up again, lol. Well the RP did have a purpose then. It taught you how to be a better RPer and in the rule. It taught you respect. I am proud of you komrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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