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[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1322549436' post='2855656']

We tried to open channels of communication with TOP in order to find some sort of way to make amends.

They told us to $%&@ off and that they would kill us one of these days. Which, ultimately, is there prerogative. But do not act like we never tried to make amends.[/quote] I ain't talkin' about TOP there, buddy.

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[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1322549436' post='2855656']
Two things.

First, I admitted I followed Grub's orders in regard to TOP. If that's not accepting responsibility for "betraying" TOP I don't know what else is. All I did was reject Yev's attempts to define my motives for me, as I know why I did what I did far better then he does.[/quote]

Yet you continually say that Polar bears no responsibility anymore because Grub is no longer emperor.

[quote]
Second, Polar sent a diplomatic team to TOP to accept responsibility and apologize. TOP showered them with obscenities and generally acted worse then MK on speed on an incredibly bad day.[/quote]

They were warned.

[quote]
Said the pot to the kettle.[/quote]

That doesn't make any sense.

[quote]
My people fell into line because the only other realistic option was to abandon Polar, which none of us wanted to do, save one individual who decided his conscience trumped the preservation of the community.[/quote]

Ah, yes. So the ends justify the means to you, I see. The community should be preserved at any cost, no matter if abhorrent and disgusting means are necessary, and anyone who allows personal values to get in the way is a traitor. Perhaps you should consider that such a community does not deserve to be preserved.

[quote]
We tried to open channels of communication with TOP in order to find some sort of way to make amends. They told us to $%&@ off and that they would kill us one of these days. Which, ultimately, is there prerogative. But do not act like we never tried to make amends.
[/quote]

Your open channels of communication consisted of your diplomats begging us to stop hating you, and then you swooping in to call us morons for attributing responsibility for the betrayal to all of Polar rather than to Grub alone.

And again you're blaming others for your own situation.

[quote]
The Emperor is not the alliance, he is the man entrusted by the Body Republic with sovereign power and he can only use that sovereign power effectively as long as he has its confidence. Grub came to believe, rightly I think, that he lost the confidence of the Body Republic after the TOP fiasco and he committed to abdicate once he cleaned up the mess he created.[/quote]

It has been repeatedly noted by people in your alliance in the past that the Emperor IS the alliance. I guess that this definition only does not apply when it is an inconvenience in public discussion.

[quote]
Action like what? Abandon the only alliance most of us had ever know? Leave the foot soldiers in a lurch and leaderless during a dual front war? Coup an Emperor at a time of great confusion and foreign war, because that always works out well for the alliance at the center?[/quote]

This equals "we do not deserve to bear responsibility, because the preservation of the community justifies any necessary actions whatsoever." You're not doing yourself any favors with this line of argument. You're only openly admitting that your alliance will resort to anything, no matter if it is enormously immoral, in order to preserve your community. As I noted, a community with such values does not deserve to exist and should be allowed to die.

[quote]
We were not willing to kill our alliance. So we helped kill yours. Hate us if you want, but no rational individual who actually wanted their alliance to survive would have reacted any other way.
[/quote]

No rational individual would have reacted any other way? That's a bold statement. It's also wholly untrue. No other alliance is willing to stoop to moral bankruptcy like yours is, and that is why Polar is viewed with contempt and disgust to a degree that no other alliance has ever approached.

As you're apparently unaware of such things, I should note that you've just resorted to another "We're not responsible" statement. This time, it was along the lines of "Everyone would have done what we did, so we didn't do anything wrong."

Edited by Crymson
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[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1322549436' post='2855656']
Two things.

We tried to open channels of communication with TOP in order to find some sort of way to make amends.

They told us to $%&@ off and that they would kill us one of these days. Which, ultimately, is there prerogative. But do not act like we never tried to make amends.

[/quote]

You didn't really expect us to say "oh ok, we forgive you"

This would be like me walking up to you, kicking you in the testicles then trying to shake your hand while you're down on the ground.

Edited by Timberland
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[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1322550242' post='2855665']That doesn't make any sense.[/quote]You are undeniably arrogant and condescending, you scream like a banshee about TOP's victimization at every possible opportunity and I have never seen you accept responsibility for leading TOP into the greatest smackdown it has ever suffered.

Do I need to draw a picture?

Edited by Fallen Fool
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[quote name='BloodFury' timestamp='1322545375' post='2855584']
I enjoy Polar finding reasons to justify any actions that they have taken in the past to this present day. The biggest issue is that you refuse to accept any responsibility for the actions of your past governments and the actions of its past members that have put it in the place it is at now. If it had apologized and tried to fix some of it's relationships it would probably not be in the position it is in now. I don't think I have ever seen an alliance act so pompous after getting pounded numerous times.

I believe it was a Polaris leader that once called an alliance out for being pompous and it's attitude unbecoming of the community, then proceeded to attack said alliance. Maybe you should take that advice yourself, or follow in that alliances example.
[/quote]

Polaris has on multiple occasions taken responsibility for the actions of the government who committed the transgressions in question. Our efforts, however, have either been consistently ignored and dismissed by all the parties to whom such overtures would be relevant as disingenuous, or overlooked because they find the endless rivalry and insufferable arguing more enjoyable.

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[quote name='Timberland' timestamp='1322550406' post='2855667']
You didn't really expect us to say "oh ok, we forgive you"

This would be like me walking up to you, kicking you in the testicles then trying to shake your hand while you're down on the ground.
[/quote]

That is not the point that is being made. We were accused of completely ignoring the wrongs of the past, when it was clear that we have not done so, even if it was in vain. Fallen (and I) were just correcting that error.

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[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1322550580' post='2855671']
You are undeniably arrogant and condescending, you scream like a banshee about TOP's victimization at every possible opportunity and I have never seen you accept responsibility for leading TOP into the greatest smackdown it's ever seen.

Do I need to draw a clearer picture?
[/quote]
You might be denser than mercury. Just maybe. Burn like you should.

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[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1322550580' post='2855671']
You are undeniably arrogant and condescending, you scream like a banshee about TOP's victimization at every possible opportunity and I have never seen you accept responsibility for leading TOP into the greatest smackdown it's ever seen.

Do I need to draw a clearer picture?
[/quote]

I'm arrogant and condescending? Ask the people close to me if they believe that. I scream like banshee about our "victimization"? That's an interesting way of putting it; and apparently you're unaware of what a victim complex is. Hint: it's when a person or entity refuses to accept responsibility for the part he, she or it played in bring about his, her or its current situation. Your alliance blames everyone else.

I've never taken responsibility? My biggest mistake was trusting your alliance. Again, you're not doing yourself any favors here. As for the degree to which I accept responsibility for our loss in that war, I have always noted that I was Grandmaster when we got into a losing war and thus bear full responsibility for the consequences, even when many people have voiced their opinion that saying this is unfair to myself.

Keep trying.

Edited by Crymson
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[quote name='r00tn00b' timestamp='1322550732' post='2855675']
You might be denser than mercury. Just maybe. Burn like you should.
[/quote]

"I can't refute your point, but I'm sure you're an idiot."

Also, I don't think Mercury burns.

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1322550821' post='2855679']
I'm arrogant and condescending? Ask the people close to me if they believe that. I scream like banshee about our "victimization"? That's an interesting way of putting it; and apparently you're unaware of what a victim complex is. Hint: it's when a person or entity refuses to accept responsibility for the part he, she or it played in bring about his, her or its current situation. Your alliance blames everyone else.

I've never taken responsibility? My main mistake was trusting your alliance. Again, you're not doing yourself any favors here.
[/quote]

I could take these exact same words and apply them to Grub. No one close to Grub believes he is arrogant or condescending. Your main mistake was your weird plan to declare war on C&G for no reason and also bandwaggon on the back of our CB, as if it had something to do with a war on completely different alliances.

Edit: Grub also takes full responsibility for Bipolar and what happened after. So, yeah.

Edited by Mergerberger II
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[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1322550719' post='2855674']
That is not the point that is being made.
[/quote]

oh its the thought that counts right ?

You didn't just screw TOP over you screwed a WHOLE coalition over. Then you guys wonder why everyone wants to see you burn.

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[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1322551020' post='2855681']
I could take these exact same words and apply them to Grub. No one close to Grub believes he is arrogant or condescending.[/quote]

LOL. That's news to me, given the descriptions of him given by individuals who have left your alliance. Anyway, this is a minor point, isn't it? You've ignored the other much more relevant points I've made.

[quote]
Your main mistake was your weird plan to declare war on C&G for no reason and also bandwaggon on the back of our CB, as if it had something to do with a war on completely different alliances.[/quote]

Hmm. Yet another Polaris failure to accept responsibility? I think so.

[quote]
Edit: Grub also takes full responsibility for Bipolar and what happened after. So, yeah.
[/quote]

Grub accepts full responsibility for his actions? Possibly he does, though I have a hard time believing it given that he changes his own story on what happened constantly. And whatever the case, he's unrepentant. Utterly so. Oh, and the things we each took responsibility for--assuming Grub took any at all--are pretty much apples and oranges. In other words, there's no comparison.

Edited by Crymson
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[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1322551020' post='2855681']




I could take these exact same words and apply them to Grub. No one close to Grub believes he is arrogant or condescending. Your main mistake was your weird plan to declare war on C&G for no reason and also bandwaggon on the back of our CB, as if it had something to do with a war on completely different alliances.


[/quote]
Polaris dragged IRON and TOP in on [i]our[/i] backs, actually. And the reasoning was that CnG would be dragged in by treaty chains due to the way Polaris had recklessly barreled through in starting that war.

And then proceeded to leave the Sith to burn with the rest of them.

So yeah. TOP and IRON arent the only ones your alliance backstabbed. And we have a [i]hell[/i] of a lot better reason to be happy to see you burn.

And make no mistake: We are enjoying it.

Edited by TehChron
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[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1322550821' post='2855679']I'm arrogant and condescending? Ask the people close to me if they believe that.[/quote]So you checked with people close to me before labeling me arrogant and condescending?

[quote]I scream like banshee about our "victimization"? That's an interesting way of putting it; and apparently you're unaware of what a victim complex is. Hint: it's when a person or entity refuses to accept responsibility for the part he, she or it played in bring about his, her or its current situation. Your alliance blames everyone else.[/quote]No? We accepted that we did what we did and we know why we did it.

You personally, on the other hand, see very keen to divorce yourself from the situation entirely.

[quote]I've never taken responsibility? My main mistake was trusting your alliance. Again, you're not doing yourself any favors here. As for the degree to which I accept responsibility for our loss in that war, ask anyone in TOP--or, for that matter, anyone with whom I've spoken about it ever--and they'll give you an accurate answer. It won't mirror your statement.[/quote]So you fundamentally misread a foreign leader and ordered a failed military strike which resulted in both significant statistical damage and massive reparations but hey, that is not your fault! You were just the alliance leader! You did not have any input whatsoever into how events unfolded.

[quote]Keep trying.[/quote]You too bud. :ehm:

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[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1322551622' post='2855695']
So you checked with people close to me before labeling me arrogant and condescending?[/quote]

I see you're continuing your failure to address my more relevant points in favor of addressing a minor and subjective point. In any event, why should I care what you think about me? I imagine I responded to you only because being compared to a member of Polaris felt so abhorrent to me.

[quote]
No? We accepted that we did what we did and we know why we did it.

You personally, on the other hand, see very keen to divorce yourself from the situation entirely.[/quote]

This doesn't make any sense.

[quote]
So you fundamentally misread a foreign leader and ordered a failed military strike which resulted in both significant statistical damage and massive reparations but hey, that is not your fault! You were just the alliance leader! You did not have any input whatsoever into how events unfolded.[/quote]

Learn to read.

That said, I'm done here, as this discussion serves no purpose. You and your alliance will no doubt forever remain as stoneheaded as you are now, and just as unwilling to accept that your own behavior is why so many alliances despise you... and why you're going to end up a crater (again).

Edited by Crymson
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[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1322551622' post='2855695']
So you checked with people close to me before labeling me arrogant and condescending?

No? We accepted that we did what we did and we know why we did it.

You personally, on the other hand, see very keen to divorce yourself from the situation entirely.

So you fundamentally misread a foreign leader and ordered a failed military strike which resulted in both significant statistical damage and massive reparations but hey, that is not your fault! You were just the alliance leader! You did not have any input whatsoever into how events unfolded.

You too bud. :ehm:
[/quote]And while youre busy rationalizing why backstabbing TOP was A-OK, youre still pointedly ignoring the fact that you also screwed over two of your [i]direct allies, only one of which you made any real attempt to make amends to[/i].

So yeah. You keep trying there, I'm sure youll be able to convince everyone of how youre a victim and we'll all feel so sorry for poor you that we'll all intervene and get TOP and IRON rolled on your behalf. Really. Itll happen. It totally will.

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[quote name='Timberland' timestamp='1322551243' post='2855684']
oh its the thought that counts right ?

You didn't just screw TOP over you screwed a WHOLE coalition over. Then you guys wonder why everyone wants to see you burn.
[/quote]


We don't wonder anything. We are fully aware of why there is a strong sentiment if distaste for us. What BloodFury said was that no effort whatsoever had been made to accept responsibility for our actions, whereas in fact we have accepted responsibility. That is all that was said. I didn't say I ever expected any forgiveness, all that was said was that we had accepted responsibility.

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[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1322549830' post='2855662']
I continue to be amused, please continue with your ranting. Every time you bite reminds me of how big the win was.
[/quote]
Yes i can see that NpO feels bad for the backstabbbing {sarcasm}. Seems like there may be a few NpO nations who have the ability to argue and make some points....then grub opens his mouth and it all goes right out the window. Enjoy the smack down.

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[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1322551873' post='2855700']
We don't wonder anything. We are fully aware of why there is a strong sentiment if distaste for us. What BloodFury said was that no effort whatsoever had been made to accept responsibility for our actions, whereas in fact we have accepted responsibility. That is all that was said. I didn't say I ever expected any forgiveness, all that was said was that we had accepted responsibility.
[/quote]
Im pretty sure that isn't the case with regards to the Sith.

Y'all somehow still have it internally rationalized that us being left out on the field to burn is our fault.

It takes a special kind of worthless ally, and an even more special kind of mass delusion to pull something like that off.

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[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1322551996' post='2855702']
Im pretty sure that isn't the case with regards to the Sith.

Y'all somehow still have it internally rationalized that us being left out on the field to burn is our fault.

It takes a special kind of worthless ally, and an even more special kind of mass delusion to pull something like that off.
[/quote]

False. The revisionism that is present in today's CN to make Polaris look worse than it is is astounding. Yes, we screwed you, but we did accept responsibility and that was made known to your government following the war. We apologized, it was accepted, and we all moved on. It was only some months later that the issue resurfaced as if it hadn't been addressed.

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[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1322551020' post='2855681']
Edit: Grub also takes full responsibility for Bipolar and what happened after. So, yeah.
[/quote]

Offering up Grub as a sacrificial lamb doesn't work, it was Polaris that did the deed, the fact that a single person could make the decision on his own does not absolve the membership that allowed him to do so of the sins conducted by the alliance as a whole. The fact that the emperor's word is law has been verified by pretty much every member of Polaris we know who has not forgotten the meaning of the word "honesty".

As for communications? I have yet to see a single emissary of Polaris of note who even seemed to be genuinely interested in mending anything.

Paradoxia owned up to our wrongdoings, Polaris did not. And that is why you burn and we're the ones bringing the gasoline.

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[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1322552202' post='2855704']
False. The revisionism that is present in today's CN to make Polaris look worse than it is is astounding. Yes, we screwed you, but we did accept responsibility and that was made known to your government following the war. We apologized, it was accepted, and we all moved on. It was only some months later that the issue resurfaced as if it hadn't been addressed.
[/quote]
No it wasn't, considering I was an active part of said government.

You sent a PM after the war blaming Grub for the mess and saying we should have gotten out sooner no matter what was on the table. Or a query. It was [i]probably[/i] just a post-it note tacked onto the fridge in the old Frostbite lounge.

So...yeah, revisionism my ass. Only revisionists in this discussion are you guys trying to pretend your actions are anyone else's fault but your own.

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[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1322549436' post='2855656']
I am not trying to destroy Grub, I am relating events as I saw them. If it looks like Polar did not know what Grub was up to, it's because Polar did not know what Grub was up to. I am fairly certain Grub would agree with that analysis.

As for the coup thing, look further down.

The Emperor is not the alliance, he is the man entrusted by the Body Republic with sovereign power and he can only use that sovereign power effectively as long as he has its confidence. Grub came to believe, rightly I think, that he lost the confidence of the Body Republic after the TOP fiasco and he committed to abdicate once he cleaned up the mess he created.

So, to put it in democratic parlance, he was confirmed as Emperor through mass consent and he resigned once the consent was withdrawn. Given the crisis, however, he stayed on in a caretaker capacity until the crisis was resolved.
[/quote]

You're not trying to destroy grub, just disassociate his deeds from polar. He's trying to take one for the team and go down in flames as a man with a grudge responsible for BiPolar. Truth, though, is that the whole alliance took part on his nefarious deeds and deserves every bit of blame and flame it gets. Obeying orders is no excuse for any deed ever made, as people always have choices regardless of the negative consequences for taking a certain pathway.

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[quote name='Bodvar Jarl' timestamp='1322552344' post='2855706']
Offering up Grub as a sacrificial lamb doesn't work, it was Polaris that did the deed, the fact that a single person could make the decision on his own does not absolve the membership that allowed him to do so of the sins conducted by the alliance as a whole. The fact that the emperor's word is law has been verified by pretty much every member of Polaris we know who has not forgotten the meaning of the word "honesty".[/quote]

That wasn't the point that was being made, but you are correct.

[quote name='Bodvar Jarl' timestamp='1322552344' post='2855706']
As for communications? I have yet to see a single emissary of Polaris of note who even seemed to be genuinely interested in mending anything.[/quote]

Four members of our Council showed up, three of which were pretty interested in attempting to ease the tension at least a little bit, and the last one was Fallen. :((

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[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1322550598' post='2855673']
Polaris has on multiple occasions taken responsibility for the actions of the government who committed the transgressions in question. Our efforts, however, have either been consistently ignored and dismissed by all the parties to whom such overtures would be relevant as disingenuous, or overlooked because they find the endless rivalry and insufferable arguing more enjoyable.
[/quote]
I'm genuinely curious if you actually believed that coming over to our forums and saying "I'm sorry, our bad" would somehow make things better?

Fake edit: Your overtures were not overlooked because we "find the endless rivalry and arguing enjoyable." This is about making sure you understand that their are consequences for your actions and that simply saying "I was just following orders" doesn't magically make it all go away.

Edited by Feanor Noldorin
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