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A new Declaration from The Order of the Paradox


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[quote name='bakamitai' timestamp='1322328096' post='2852623']
It's a Beefspari sighting! The answer to your question is: as soon as GOONS finishes fighting on the winning side.
[/quote]
I only show up when something interesting is going on. Which just means when there's a war. Nation rebuilding and getting new wonders is pretty dull. I'll be glad if I get the chance to put some of them to good use. This doesn't involve us just yet, but I can wait. That's all I'm doing inbetween wars anyway: waiting for one. As for the second part, we can't help it if our side always wins. We're just that good.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL11.jpg[/img]

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[quote]Honestly all I hear is "You betrayed us 3 years ago, You made us pay reps because we lost a war, and now that we have became friends with someone stronger then you were gonna fight you!".

It was funnier when TOP was going to declare 3 days ago but then lost support from their new allies and they ran like cowards. The reason there is 66 wars by IRON/TOP is because they're not even fighting, PB/DH is fighting for TOP. If PB/DH dropped support for TOP tomorrow, TOP would call a ceasefire and beg for white peace. TOP will never fight this war, only talk about how they did so well when someone else tries to roll Polar. If TOP was offended so much of getting "betrayed" by Polaris back then, then why didn't they declare 2 years ago and settle the issue?

EDIT: Polaris, Please fill out a new debt slip to TOP for 253,000 Tech this time... So they can call it an even 500,000.
[/quote]

I'm impressed. I tend to have very filtered and very eclectic situational awareness, but you have even worse data than I do.

You really have no idea how decision making works in CN, do you?

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[quote name='Vandal' timestamp='1322328159' post='2852625']
What should be stressed here is Polar's lack of ability to be trusted along with their poor record of how they treated their allies just doesn't stem from the Bi-Polar war. Hell, it even extends past the days of BLEU. Polar was a !@#$% alliance run by !@#$%bags 5 years ago. Their high and mighty, full of themselves mentality has finally caught up with them once people figured out what they were all about. The difference between ES and the leaders that followed was ES had a great talent for being able to insult you and have you believe he just gave you a compliment. Everyone followed that cult of personality. Anyone that saw through it were invariably trounced and it wotked. NpO was a great and successful alliance because of it.

However, ES was right when he stated to the alliance that HE was NpO. Without him at the helm, the alliance had a leader with the same arrogance that was eventually its downfall because face it, Grub is no ES. When MCXA left BLEU, Polar called them fair weather friends and traitors. No. It's just back then MCXA knew what you guys were well before anyone else and did what was right. Polar did a great job at playing the victim. Now? Your plays at it again will no longer be viewed as nothing more than the desperation it is.

Reap it Polar..
[/quote]
MCXA at that time was a fair weather friend. They left BLEU for One Vision while One Vision was planning a war on BLEU. Someone at MCXA put some overriding permissions on masks in hopes of spying as well. There's a reason that most of BLEU hated TSO upon their formation. Pretty much everyone at MCXA who had screwed over BLEU was in it.

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1322379815' post='2853529']
NpO was not an enemy of TOP at that time. Relations had been improving, and contact had been close, for some time. There were even talks of a possible treaty.

You, like Jaiar, have pretty much never gotten anything right on here.
[/quote]
TOP and NpO had been enemies for years, ever since ES's statement about dancing on your grave. Trusting someone you had so publicly hated was not smart. But tell you what, I won't drag this up anymore if TOP shuts up about the Polar betrayal and grave dancing things. Deal? It's a public service really.

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No !@#$, that was incredibly stupid. But after all, it still was an attempt to bury the hatchet with NpO and save all of you from endless arguments between Crymson and Grub. They spat in our faces, now its payback. And i hope that everyone can finally let it rest after that.

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[quote name='HellAngel' timestamp='1322406668' post='2853735']
No !@#$, that was incredibly stupid. But after all, it still was an attempt to bury the hatchet with NpO and save all of you from endless arguments between Crymson and Grub. They spat in our faces, now its payback. And i hope that everyone can finally let it rest after that.
[/quote]

But don't you get it - your payback now is payback for their payback for your payback etc.

That said, I too hope it is laid to rest after this.

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[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1322365307' post='2853234']
NpO had, earlier in the war, informed MK that they did not intend to honor their MDP with that alliance during the war.

Nice try. I think you're zero for ten million at this stage in your forum-going career.
[/quote]
I truly wish we had peaced out with NpO two days earlier in that war and gave you all blue balls, bunch of hypocrits
o/ \m/

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[quote name='Vanilla Napalm' timestamp='1322389854' post='2853623']
I was in \m/ too bro. :awesome:
I'm not negating anything, i'm pretty sure everything you said there lines up with what i said. Well, besides who put leverage upon whom to mediate the peace, but that would just be speculation really. It was certainly known that the TOP front was going to explode in any case.
As to whether it was some insidious plan on behalf of Grub or just the dude flailing madly around is another question, but the answer to that is far more entertaining to ascertain when you have Grub and Crymson locking horns.
[/quote]
Without Archon coming to our .gov (\m/) there would have been no peace at that time with Polaris. Thats fact. Somewhere there are logs about rope conversations during that exact time :P

PS: Grub knew what he was doing, somewhere at home I have logs of Grub talking about it days before it happened.

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[quote name='empirica' timestamp='1322406409' post='2853732']
MCXA at that time was a fair weather friend. They left BLEU for One Vision while One Vision was planning a war on BLEU. Someone at MCXA put some overriding permissions on masks in hopes of spying as well. There's a reason that most of BLEU hated TSO upon their formation. Pretty much everyone at MCXA who had screwed over BLEU was in it.
[/quote]

That's not true. I don't know about any spying. There was nothing we could have gained from the BLEU Forums anyway. Fact is, Polar played big bully, used us as "meatshields", and even attacked a MDP partner of Viridia (who was MCXA's MDAP partner and close friend at that time). They also tried to fool Grämlins in a war against Bilrow at that time. Since Polar didn't want to listen, we attempted to boot them,since that didn't work, we left ourselves.

We made mistakes, but Polar wasn't a victim either. Read up on history. I know you were BLEU gov at that time. But you, like most others, just sucked up to them, and that without any questions being asked.

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[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1322415991' post='2853831']
You misplaced your trust by giving it to an enemy and now come back for your revenge. Fair enough.

I was wondering how long it would take for the froth to get up to full steam.
[/quote]

You know as well as I do that we didn't consider them an enemy then. Not when Paradoxians left to NpO to help them in their war, while TOP worked at TOP speed to come to a decision on what to do. They were not our enemy when NSO, their ally who through IRON we were tied to, was eager for our help in defending their ally that started the war while they were facing alliances much larger then them. We did misplace our trust, but your characterization of him as our enemy at the time is false, and misleading, and you know it.

I know your in Legion now, and on the opposite side, but I always thought you were above spin. Part of the reason you supported Legion when it was unpopular, but when they had a reason to go to war. I've never had a problem with Legion, nor have I spat bs on these forums to characterize them as some awful alliance to better our position, so please spare me yours, especially when you know the details of what happened.

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[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1322379815' post='2853529']
NpO was not an enemy of TOP at that time. Relations had been improving, and contact had been close, for some time. There were even talks of a possible treaty.

You, like Jaiar, have pretty much never gotten anything right on here.
[/quote]No. Most didn't like you even during the \m/ war I remember. TOP and TSO were the two most hated alliances in NpO back then. Maybe there was talk of a treaty behind doors. Idk and don't care.

Edited by Ryan Greenberg
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[quote name='Khyber' timestamp='1322417426' post='2853848']
You know as well as I do that we didn't consider them an enemy then. Not when Paradoxians left to NpO to help them in their war, while TOP worked at TOP speed to come to a decision on what to do. They were not our enemy when NSO, their ally who through IRON we were tied to, was eager for our help in defending their ally that started the war while they were facing alliances much larger then them. We did misplace our trust, but your characterization of him as our enemy at the time is false, and misleading, and you know it.

I know your in Legion now, and on the opposite side, but I always thought you were above spin. Part of the reason you supported Legion when it was unpopular, but when they had a reason to go to war. I've never had a problem with Legion, nor have I spat bs on these forums to characterize them as some awful alliance to better our position, so please spare me yours, especially when you know the details of what happened.
[/quote]

[quote]
Yevgeni Luchenkov, on 19 July 2010 - 03:13 PM, said:[quote]
We went with the best strategy that was available to us, given the information we had at our disposal. Did you also predict that Polaris would completely leave the coalition - even if Grub was approving our attack - and then DoW on us? If so, you probably could have told us.
[/quote]
Me:
Wow, that you thought that attacking without any valid CB at all, [b]basing your 'strategy' simply on the word of a man that hates TOP and was also obligated to defend those you proposed to attack[/b], and even with such a betrayal that would even the odds of success to slim, that all that was a good idea is astounding. And after such a catastrophic $%&@ up that dragged most of your allies in with you, you come here to try and defend IRON against those who are rightfully upset over what looks like abandonment after being used.

When an alliance goes, those connected to it, who have a sense of honor, are obligated to go with them. For better or worse. Or else risk political suicide by being labeled as opportunists. By that same token, those that lead their friends into a mess should feel a degree of obligation towards those that supported them.

I like TOP and IRON pretty well, but just like the DoW against CnG, this move is leaving me scratching my head.[/quote]

There is no spin on my part, I'm just calling it like I see it. Look at the date of Yevgeni's post. My response at the time was the opinion I held then and one I still do.

I don't doubt that you feel betrayed and I'm sure that sense of betrayal was generated by some moderate strides in FA improvement with Polar. So here's your chance to seek redress. But of all the good things about TOP, and you have many, your flaw is that you all have unfortunate tendency to vacillate between paranoia and naivete.

For the record, if I were in your shoes, I would feel justified in this declaration, too. But I would be equally upset at myself for failing to see the realpolitik situation before committing myself to such a risky venture 2 years ago.

Regardless, I hope this war helps put the grudges, from both sides, to rest.

*Edit: While not pertinent to the current point, for context the quoted posts were from the IRON cancellation thread on the heg. alliances.

Edited by Kzoppistan
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Maybe we should dig up logs of the AtF with Polaris. They either faked up friendship/approval/common interest four months before BPW or there really was a warming up of relations.

Who knows, maybe Polaris was running a multiple year long operation of charm that they knew would lead to a war where TOP&friends would offer to make a move that was never really seen in the past, much less by TOP (who, according to the media spin of 2009-2010, was adverse to risk taking to a ridiculous point).

Either that or Grub took the opportunity to scrap a year of good relations and backstabbed us for a grudge of 2008 (that should never been a grudge to begin with, as ES had been maneuvering to destroy us in the first place).

Ball will be in your court, once again, Polaris. This time, we know what will happen.

Edited by Yevgeni Luchenkov
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[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1322420811' post='2853881']
Maybe we should dig up logs of the AtF with Polaris. They either faked up friendship/approval/common interest four months before BPW or there really was a warming up of relations.
[/quote]

You are probably correct in your assertion that relations were warming, but I ask you this: if you had to place yourself in someone else's shoes, in this case Polar, how would you rank your FA priorities? Would you, from Polar's eyes, have placed TOP above MK? Of course not.

And to ask a quasi-ally to ignore or approve of an attack on their long standing ally is duplicitous, at best. It seems only fitting that you received the same treatment in turn, and you did.

Now, I know you have your reasons for thinking that allying with Polar to attack their ally was a good idea, and perhaps you were led to believe it was kosher, too, so I won't dispute that, but to place the blame of your defeat, a valiant first strike though it was, on another rather than your own shortsightedness is blatant misdirection and shifting of personal responsibility.

I'm not going to defend Polar for their decisions, I'm sure they have plenty members who are able, anymore than I will defend you for yours. You both have your reasons for the actions you took and subsequent grievances and so I will simply say I hope you see it resolved in a manner satisfactory to you and equally so for my ally. And I'll leave it at that.

Good luck, ect.

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[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1322417775' post='2853852']
No. Most didn't like you even during the \m/ war I remember. TOP and TSO were the two most hated alliances in NpO back then. Maybe there was talk of a treaty behind doors. Idk and don't care.
[/quote]
I believe we were still disliked by most of the general membership of Polar because you're largely ignorant of what goes on in government circles (ie, you have no clue about the ongoings between my alliance and yours for months on end pre-BiPolar). Nevertheless, the relationship between TOP's Council/General Assembly and Polar's government was infact quite good. While Grub has been found out to be untrustworthy and somewhat schizophrenic I doubt anyone would have anything remotely negative to say about individuals such as Penguin or ZBaldwin. Their efforts to become close to us were very genuine as was their absolute disgust at what Grub pulled.

Edited by Feanor Noldorin
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[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1322417775' post='2853852']
No. Most didn't like you even during the \m/ war I remember. TOP and TSO were the two most hated alliances in NpO back then. Maybe there was talk of a treaty behind doors. Idk and don't care.
[/quote]
Incorrect. \m/ was the most hated alliance then, hated for telling Grub no when Grub came to us in a manner provoking war. Most every other alliance would have told Grub the same thing, no, except we were universally hated for it. Both then and in the TOP/C&G part of the war where people wanted us to help out GOONS, the same GOONS who watched us burn for an action we took part in together.

Sure TOP wasn't liked back then, but \m/ was universally hated by the vast majority of the alliances here at that time.

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[quote name='empirica' timestamp='1322406409' post='2853732']
TOP and NpO had been enemies for years, ever since ES's statement about dancing on your grave. Trusting someone you had so publicly hated was not smart. But tell you what, I won't drag this up anymore if TOP shuts up about the Polar betrayal and grave dancing things. Deal? It's a public service really.
[/quote]

You're claiming to know more about TOP's opinions than TOP does. That strikes me as a bit odd.

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[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1322415991' post='2853831']
You misplaced your trust by giving it to an enemy and now come back for your revenge. Fair enough.

I was wondering how long it would take for the froth to get up to full steam.
[/quote]

You joined The Legion. 'Nuff said.

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[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1322424968' post='2853943']
I believe we were still disliked by most of the general membership of Polar because you're largely ignorant of what goes on in government circles (ie, you have no clue about the ongoings between my alliance and yours for months on end pre-BiPolar). Nevertheless, the relationship between TOP's Council/General Assembly and Polar's government was infact quite good. While Grub has been found out to be untrustworthy and somewhat schizophrenic[b] I doubt anyone would have anything remotely negative to say about individuals such as Penguin or ZBaldwin. Their efforts to become close to us were very genuine as was their absolute disgust at what Grub pulled.[/b][/quote]
Reading the bolded I am puzzled, why again are you taking revenge on all of Polaris? Am I missing something in what you said above?

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[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1322439598' post='2854084']
Reading the bolded I am puzzled, why again are you taking revenge on all of Polaris? Am I missing something in what you said above?
[/quote]
Is this another "NpO shouldn't answer for its leadership actions"? :unsure:

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