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[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1320024171' post='2835350']
It's not [i]our[/i] pride preventing peace. The NSO has every reason to be proud of our performance in this war, given that we've carried a greater burden of the fighting than we ever should have or expected and we have held our own in the process. Yes, Legion deserves respect, and they have gained it for their performance to date.

But either Legion can see sense and recognize that they are in no position to dictate terms to us or they can throw away what has up to now been a mostly positive experience for them. It is our pride that has kept this war contained, but even the NSO isn't so proud as to pointlessly trade cruise missiles for however many months this would take. We and Tetris have made more than reasonable offers, and still leave those offers on the table. At the same time, we are perfectly capable of prolonging the war if necessary. We won't single-handedly win any victory worth winning. But neither will Legion. We've recognized this and have behaved accordingly by seeking an equitable end to an equal war. Legion still refuse to accept this reality and are behaving as if they are in a much stronger position than they actually are.

The Sith have been on the losing sides of wars before, wars that were much more decisive and longer than this. We know when we are beat, and we've learned how to put aside our pride and move on. We aren't beat, and we won't be.

We've also sacrificed our nations and our strength repeatedly, over and over again, for the benefit of allies and friends. We've endured unnecessary hardships because of the failings of others, both in the past and today. We've done all of this because it has always been the right thing to do: we will always support our friends and our allies to the last breath, no matter the cause. We do this without question, hesitation, or regret, and I have no doubt that we will do so again in the future.

But we will not sacrifice ourselves unnecessarily just so that Legion may feel better about themselves.
[/quote]

Are you saying you want Legion to surrender to you?

What position are you to dictate terms to Legion? :huh:

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[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1320024473' post='2835358']
Are you saying you want Legion to surrender to you?

What position are you to dictate terms to Legion? :huh:
[/quote]
I didn't say anything remotely close to that.

But I am in just about the same position to dictate terms to Legion as they are to dictate terms to me. Which is why we aren't dictating terms or demanding their surrender.

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[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1320023381' post='2835333']
Dear Rebel Virginia, speaking of NpO puppets, do you remember a time where a certain.. hmm.. Rebel Virginia used to be baiting NADC by stealing money from their protectorate - AC/DC if memory serves me right - so that a certain NpO could beat them down? :)
[/quote]


[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1320023519' post='2835335']
[color="#0000FF"]No I do not, actually. I have never had any interactions with either AC/DC nor NADC of that nature. But if you like to continue to skew the facts to serve your masters in Polaris, then by all means continue.[/color]
[/quote]

Yeah Lusitan, Polaris is your master :lol1:

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[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1320023519' post='2835335']
[color="#0000FF"]No I do not, actually. I have never had any interactions with either AC/DC nor NADC of that nature. But if you like to continue to skew the facts to serve your masters in Polaris, then by all means continue.[/color]
[/quote]

My masters in Polaris? lol

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[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1320019752' post='2835298']
Interesting statement, but it totally ignores everything that Legion had to endure on these very forums from the likes of Tetris and NSO over the past several months. No, if similar had been done to TPF, you would be here supporting your alliance in its efforts to obtain a surrender from its enemies.

Don't get knock kneed. If you supported Legion at the beginning, they have done nothing to this point to have that support suddenly withdrawn. It only enables NSO's stubbornness.
[/quote]

No, if my issue was with NSO then I would have went after NSO right then. Not, go after Tetris after VE walked away and then with the unexpected dumb luck of IAA and BTA falling apart to start talking smack and demanding surrenders. Legion has completely fumbled its way in to what could be a victory only they are to stupid to take it and walk away and instead want to push for more despite the fact that doing so could end up going very very wrong for them. Legion should take what dumb luck has given them and stop trying to screw it up.

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[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1320024171' post='2835350']But either Legion can see sense and recognize that they are in no position to dictate terms to us or they can throw away what has up to now been a mostly positive experience for them. It is our pride that has kept this war contained, but even the NSO isn't so proud as to pointlessly trade cruise missiles for however many months this would take.[/quote]

What's your analysis of Legion's position? Is the last sentence I've quoted you saying that you will call in allies if you don't get white peace?

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[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1320024616' post='2835360']
I didn't say anything remotely close to that.

But I am in just about the same position to dictate terms to Legion as they are to dictate terms to me. Which is why we aren't dictating terms or demanding their surrender.
[/quote]

How so?
You are demanding that after you attacked them for your allies government goading them and committing acts of war against The Legion that you are in a position to reject an offer of white peace conditional on accepting that you have been defeated. Which, by all measures you have been so far and will continue to be unless someone else supports your and your allies aggressive actions towards Legion.

You are entitled to reject generous peace offers, and that may very well say something about your pride but very little about common sense.

Something that if you or your allies government had, would never have been placed yourselves in the position to be receiving the ironic prospect of peace offers dictated by an opponent whom is not only beating you, but the same opponent months or weeks earlier you openly chided.

Edited by IYIyTh
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[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1320025102' post='2835371']
What's your analysis of Legion's position? Is the last sentence I've quoted you saying that you will call in allies if you don't get white peace?
[/quote]
My analysis of Legion's position is that whole post I made. In short: they are overstating their case by demanding that we surrender to them, which have no reason to do.

If it were my decision, then yes I would begin calling in allies. I would rather end the war today than escalate it, but if that is not an option than oh well, that's not really my fault.

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1320025442' post='2835380']
How so?
You are demanding that after you attacked them for your allies government goading them and committing acts of war against The Legion that you are in a position to reject an offer of white peace conditional on accepting that you have been defeated. Which, by all measures you have been so far and will continue to be unless someone else supports your and your allies aggressive actions towards Legion.

You are entitled to reject generous peace offers, and that may very well say something about your pride but very little about common sense.

Something that if you or your allies government had, would never have been placed yourselves in the position to be receiving the ironic prospect of peace offers dictated by an opponent whom is not only beating you, but the same opponent months or weeks earlier you openly chided.
[/quote]
It is difficult to respond to this sort of post when you go leagues out of your way to restate everything in such a way as to try and paint us in the most negative light possible. But it is telling that you would do so in response to a post I made that was really very genuine and fair.

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[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1320026153' post='2835390']
My analysis of Legion's position is that whole post I made. In short: they are overstating their case by demanding that we surrender to them, which have no reason to do.

If it were my decision, then yes I would begin calling in allies. I would rather end the war today than escalate it, but if that is not an option than oh well, that's not really my fault.[/quote]

I'm trying to clarify your post.

Are you saying that Legion is not militarily in a position to make any kind of demands because you will call in allies or are you painting the threat to call in allies as the only way to end what you consider to be a stalemate situation?

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[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1320026571' post='2835398']
I'm trying to clarify your post.

Are you saying that Legion is not militarily in a position to make any kind of demands because you will call in allies or are you painting the threat to call in allies as the only way to end what you consider to be a stalemate situation?
[/quote]
The latter.

And before anyone jumps in bandying numbers about, I am perfectly aware that certain statistics show an edge in Legion's favor. I just don't believe that there is a strong case to be made that Legion has enough of an edge to force us into a true defeat.

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[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1320021814' post='2835317']
[color="#0000FF"]I am not sure what you are talking about. If you believe you are so worthy of my time that I trouble myself with most of your incoherent ramblings then you truly are delusional.[/color]
[/quote]

Lol?

incoherent? I proved you wrong, and that's all you can do? I guess the saying is truthful, it takes more of a man to admit he's a liar than one to hold onto those lies.

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[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1320026571' post='2835398']
I'm trying to clarify your post.

Are you saying that Legion is not militarily in a position to make any kind of demands because you will call in allies or are you painting the threat to call in allies as the only way to end what you consider to be a stalemate situation?
[/quote]

Does it really matter? Fight an eternal war with outside aid, call in allies, accept a mass of voluteers from allied and anti Legion alliances etc. etc. How are any of those options good are for Legion? Dumb luck has gotten you this far take it and walk away and call it a win. Because anything that happens after that is all on you and dumb luck will only get you so far.

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[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1320026745' post='2835401']
The latter.

And before anyone jumps in bandying numbers about, I am perfectly aware that certain statistics show an edge in Legion's favor. I just don't believe that there is a strong case to be made that Legion has enough of an edge to force us into a true defeat.
[/quote]

You're perfectly entitled to hold that belief but as you rightly say, many will dismiss your contention that a stalemate has been reached with statistics. Given that you're a martial alliance I would have thought you would wish to prove your statement correct in battle rather than rely on the threat of escalation to end the conflict.

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[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1320026935' post='2835407']
Does it really matter? Fight an eternal war with outside aid, call in allies, accept a mass of voluteers from allied and anti Legion alliances etc. etc. How are any of those options good are for Legion? Dumb luck has gotten you this far take it and walk away and call it a win. Because anything that happens after that is all on you and dumb luck will only get you so far.
[/quote]

I am merely clarifying what Heft is saying. I'm not gov so any advice you have about the way the conflict and negotiations to end it are handled are I'm afraid wasted on me.

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[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1320024171' post='2835350']
It's not [i]our[/i] pride preventing peace. The NSO has every reason to be proud of our performance in this war, given that we've carried a greater burden of the fighting than we ever should have or expected and we have held our own in the process. Yes, Legion deserves respect, and they have gained it for their performance to date.[/quote]

You are right. You should be proud of your performance thus far, because it is true that IAA have certainly not done their part, certainly not to the level which was expected of them by any of us.

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1320024171' post='2835350']
But either Legion can see sense and recognize that they are in no position to dictate terms to us or they can throw away what has up to now been a mostly positive experience for them. It is our pride that has kept this war contained, but even the NSO isn't so proud as to pointlessly trade cruise missiles for however many months this would take. We and Tetris have made more than reasonable offers, and still leave those offers on the table. At the same time, we are perfectly capable of prolonging the war if necessary. We won't single-handedly win any victory worth winning. But neither will Legion. We've recognized this and have behaved accordingly by seeking an equitable end to an equal war. Legion still refuse to accept this reality and are behaving as if they are in a much stronger position than they actually are.[/quote]

Your first sentence is false. Legion are in a position to dictate terms because they are winning the war at this point. By no measure but your own, which seems to change by the hour, are you winning or even near a stalemate with Legion. The party which dictates terms is [i]always[/i] the one which is winning. And in this case, that is Legion. Second, if your 'pride' is what has kept this war contained, then why is it that you continue to threaten to bring in allies? Do you intend to sacrifice what pride you have so that you have a chance at possibly winning the war? Third, you have made no reasonable offers because you are not in a position to make offers. As I already stated, and as many others have already stated, you are losing, and therefore you are not in a position to dictate terms. Legion is winning the war by all measures, and therefore they get to issue terms, which are far more generous than I would have given. You have the right to refuse them if you wish, of course. Fourth, you won't single-handedly win any victory whatsoever. Legion already has the victory that they need, and now are continuing to win the military conflict, despite all your denial of the facts. Finally, who are you to seek an equitable end to the war when the war and the reasons for war have not been equitable in any way whatsoever?

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1320024171' post='2835350']
The Sith have been on the losing sides of wars before, wars that were much more decisive and longer than this. We know when we are beat, and we've learned how to put aside our pride and move on. We aren't beat, and we won't be. [/quote]

You are beaten, and if you don't realize it now, you soon will, assuming you don't forfeit all your remaining dignity and pride by calling in allies.

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1320024171' post='2835350']
We've also sacrificed our nations and our strength repeatedly, over and over again, for the benefit of allies and friends. We've endured unnecessary hardships because of the failings of others, both in the past and today. We've done all of this because it has always been the right thing to do: we will always support our friends and our allies to the last breath, no matter the cause. We do this without question, hesitation, or regret, and I have no doubt that we will do so again in the future.[/quote]

Unnecessary hardships? When has NSO ever endured any unnecessary hardships?

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1320024171' post='2835350']
But we will not sacrifice ourselves unnecessarily just so that Legion may feel better about themselves.
[/quote]

You already did.

[font=Times][size=2][font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2][quote name='Heft' timestamp='1320026745' post='2835401']
The latter.

And before anyone jumps in bandying numbers about, I am perfectly aware that certain statistics show an edge in Legion's favor. I just don't believe that there is a strong case to be made that Legion has enough of an edge to force us into a true defeat.
[/quote]
Then why not keep fighting until the war reaches a point where one party has clearly won, instead of calling in your friends to save you? If you're not losing, then why do you need help?[/size][/font][/size][/font]

Edited by Mergerberger II
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[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1320027055' post='2835411']
You're perfectly entitled to hold that belief but as you rightly say, many will dismiss your contention that a stalemate has been reached with statistics. Given that you're a martial alliance I would have thought you would wish to prove your statement correct in battle rather than rely on the threat of escalation to end the conflict.
[/quote]
We've fought you for a month (and believe it or not we really didn't want to fight you, we had other things to concern ourselves with), and we've held our own well enough up to now. There's not much else to prove by just exchanging bombs indefinitely.

[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1320027515' post='2835416']
You are right. You should be proud of your performance thus far, because it is true that IAA have certainly not done their part, certainly not to the level which was expected of them by any of us.[/quote]
Thank you.

[quote]Your first sentence is false. Legion are in a position to dictate terms because they are winning the war at this point. By no measure but your own, which seems to change by the hour, are you winning or even near a stalemate with Legion. The party which dictates terms is [i]always[/i] the one which is winning. And in this case, that is Legion. Second, if your 'pride' is what has kept this war contained, then why is it that you continue to threaten to bring in allies? Do you intend to sacrifice what pride you have so that you have a chance at possibly winning the war? Third, you have made no reasonable offers because you are not in a position to make offers. As I already stated, and as many others have already stated, you are losing, and therefore you are not in a position to dictate terms. Legion is winning the war by all measures, and therefore they get to issue terms, which are far more generous than I would have given. You have the right to refuse them if you wish, of course. Fourth, you won't single-handedly win any victory whatsoever. Legion already has the victory that they need, and now are continuing to win the military conflict, despite all your denial of the facts. Finally, who are you to seek an equitable end to the war when the war and the reasons for war have not been equitable in any way whatsoever?[/quote]
I suppose we have a difference of opinion. I explained myself quite well and succinctly already, and don't really feel like getting into another shouting match about this. I have never stated that we are going to emerge victorious, simply that you and those that share your sense of hyperbole are greatly overstating the facts of the case.

[quote]Unnecessary hardships? When has NSO ever endured any unnecessary hardships? [/quote]
Well, there was this one time when we jumped in to a war that one of our allies had chosen to declare, aggressively, for reasons that many people found to be dubious. We were one of the first (the first?) allies to support them on the field, and we endured nearly a week of fighting with little support before they agreed to peace. Unfortunately, they hadn't bothered to tell anyone they were agreeing to peace, and so we ended up being stuck fighting for a few more weeks for absolutely zero reason. Which alliance was that again?
[font="Times"][size="2"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="2"]
[quote]Then why not keep fighting until the war reaches a point where one party has clearly won, instead of calling in your friends to save you? If you're not losing, then why do you need help?[/size][/font][/size][/font][/quote]
This is a non-argument that has been addressed plenty, by myself and others, and seems to presuppose a false choice.

Given the choice between exchanging bombs indefinitely, for an indeterminate amount of time, and losing more and more strength for no apparent reason, and escalating the war in order to force a quicker resolution, common sense would seem to favor the latter. That doesn't mean we're losing, just that the benefits of escalation now outweigh the benefits of containment.

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[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1320026153' post='2835390']
It is difficult to respond to this sort of post when you go leagues out of your way to restate everything in such a way as to try and paint us in the most negative light possible. But it is telling that you would do so in response to a post I made that was really very genuine and fair.
[/quote]

When greeted by the facts of this war you would prefer to just cover your ears up and pretend like Legion is somehow extorting for you reps, forcing you to continue a war you started by offering you gracious terms that you balk on you decide that they are negative?

While that's fine and all, I'd prefer if you not insult everyone's intelligence and act as if the Legion is now oppressing you, despite how even more humerous that makes this situation.

Edited by IYIyTh
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[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1320028394' post='2835431']
When greeted by the facts of this war you would prefer to just cover your ears up and pretend like Legion is somehow extorting for you reps, forcing you to continue a war you started by offering you gracious terms that you balk on you decide that they are negative?

While that's fine and all, I'd prefer if you not insult everyone's intelligence and act as if the Legion is now oppressing you, despite how even more humerous that makes this situation.
[/quote]
Again, it's difficult to respond to posts that don't appear to be discussing anything recognizable reality. Did you stumble in from an alternative universe or something?

We didn't start the war and we've never claimed Legion are oppressing us. It's probably best if you not bring up intelligence while posting things like this.

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So the last couple of pages, all I got was that NSO is apparently to weak to win this war on their own, to stupid to just admit defeat and in this war today, and thus will most likely end up calling on Ragnarok to hit Legion to save NSO's pathetic hide. Awesome. Also, seems that MEAT is getting thrown around by NSO as well. Who else is NSO allied to? I honestly want to know whose wait NSO is throwing around because it most assuredly is not their own weight.

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[size=2][quote name='Heft' timestamp='1320028264' post='2835429']
We've fought you for a month (and believe it or not we really didn't want to fight you, we had other things to concern ourselves with), and we've held our own well enough up to now. There's not much else to prove by just exchanging bombs indefinitely.[/quote]

Then why did you call them out, if you didn't want to fight?

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1320028264' post='2835429']
Well, there was this one time when we jumped in to a war that one of our allies had chosen to declare, aggressively, for reasons that many people found to be dubious. We were one of the first (the first?) allies to support them on the field, and we endured nearly a week of fighting with little support before they agreed to peace. Unfortunately, they hadn't bothered to tell anyone they were agreeing to peace, and so we ended up being stuck fighting for a few more weeks for absolutely zero reason. Which alliance was that again?[/quote]

A situation for which that alliance has apologized, and said apology has been accepted. And yeah, that alliance $%&@ed up there. Anyway, I wouldn't consider what you're going through to be an 'unnecessary hardship'. You defended your allies, and unless you're the one who called in BTA and IAA, all the 'hardship' you've 'endured' is a result of your choice to support your ally's failing.

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1320028264' post='2835429']
This is a non-argument that has been addressed plenty, by myself and others, and seems to presuppose a false choice. [/quote][/size]
So then you're saying that you're not going to call in your allies?

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1320028264' post='2835429']
Given the choice between exchanging bombs indefinitely, for an indeterminate amount of time, and losing more and more strength for no apparent reason, and escalating the war in order to force a quicker resolution, common sense would seem to favor the latter. That doesn't mean we're losing, just that the benefits of escalation now outweigh the benefits of containment.
[/quote]

If you actually think that escalating this affair will make it end more promptly, then you are sadly mistaken. I'm guessing that you're not that dense, so what is your real reason for escalating?

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[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1320029874' post='2835455'][size="2"]Then why did you call them out, if you didn't want to fight?[/quote]
Because it was entertaining, because their members kept saying stupid things, because we were annoyed after they fell down on the job in the last war.

[quote]A situation for which that alliance has apologized, and said apology has been accepted. And yeah, that alliance $%&@ed up there. Anyway, I wouldn't consider what you're going through to be an 'unnecessary hardship'. You defended your allies, and unless you're the one who called in BTA and IAA, all the 'hardship' you've 'endured' is a result of your choice to support your ally's failing.[/quote]
We still had to pick up the slack for them and absorb a significantly higher amount of attacks than we should have, so yes that has been unnecessary. And now we're still fighting because Legion, and those pressuring behind the scenes, are too gluttonous to just walk away with the progress that they've made and would rather demand more than we can give.
[/size]
[quote]If you actually think that escalating this affair will make it end more promptly, then you are sadly mistaken. I'm guessing that you're not that dense, so what is your real reason for escalating?[/quote]
The most prompt ending, and still my preferred ending, would be a mutual peace, as we've said over and over. Escalation might get a little ugly for a bit, but it will still be shorter than Legion and us trading bombs from now until whenever.

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