The GM's Court

[Centurius]

Your new designs will be evaluated in the upcoming days, please refrain from use IC until we post with our ruling.

[Triyun]

To the first point: Hostility towards GMs is simply a one way issue. Either you can not show hostility. Or you're in violation of the rules. This applies to all players and all GMs in so far as things pertaining to their duty of being GMs. If you do not like a particular GM you still must remain respectful. Decisions as always are made by a majority of the GMs rather than one specific one. If you'd like to point to evidence of a GM being hostile towards you (other than disagreeing with you, but for example using clearly disrespectful language) while performing a GM duty that is one thing. But its simply not acceptable to continuously be taking potshots at GMs while they are doing their duties, and behavior of this nature is solely on the player to improve. Disagree without being disagreeable.

In regards to the aircraft you'll need to describe any sort of 'stealth' features as well as maneuvering capabilities. Please note when describing this previous rulings regarding maneuverability and stealth versus speed. Also the turbine will need to be specified as to which type. Additionally please define 'intelligent', is this a drone or its own operator. Lastly we'd like to know what sort of sensors the unit is equipped with any their power.

[king of cochin]

Considering the several concessions and changes brought out by Executive Minister in his designs to placate objections from Triyun and Centurius and considering the numerous tech links he has shared in this matter I, as a GM, certainly refuses to consider Executive Minister's design as banned. I , as the third GM do not support the decision to ban EM's design and to close the issue.

Also it is extremely unfair of making accusations of disrespect to GMs towards Executive Minister considering he has been extremely cooperative to us so far. It is unreasonable to expect EM to conform to arbitrarily created standards that have not been foisted on any one else. If an example is to be made this is not the way to do this.

As the third GM, I express my vocal opposition to the lack of consideration given to EM in this matter. We may be GMs but we are still bound by the same rules of consideration and mutual respect owed to other members of CNRP, especially a person of EM's stature.

[VigilantWatcher]

I believe Triyun's ruling is unfair on the basis is that if i can venture an opinion, i think the aircraft proposed looks good, with the SHCRAMJET an interesting concept. I have to definately commend EM on thinking up these aircraft designs as i could never dream to create such ideas.

I know that this will get looked over, but i will say it anyway. I will recommend that the aircraft uses a Microturbine Engine to power it, or you could have a dual engine unit with a turbojet at low speeds then switch to the Microturbine engine as it reaches cruising speeds.

[img]http://www.offshore-technology.com/contractor_images/capstone-turbine/2-microturbine.jpg[/img]

Microturbine systems have many claimed advantages over reciprocating engine generators, such as higher power-to-weight ratio, low emissions and few, or just one, moving part. Advantages are that microturbines may be designed with foil bearings and air-cooling operating without lubricating oil, coolants or other hazardous materials.

I admit i am not that knowledgeable when it comes to aircraft but that is my suggestion.

Edited October 27, 2011 by Curristan

[Triyun]

EMs the only one with a Mach 20 plane that flies 6 times as far as any contemporary plane, has a thrust to weigh ratio far above others, carrying the same amount of fuel, has two F-16 sized engines plus the other jet forms, and carried over three times the fire power, all while weighing less than any contemporary plane. If you can show me someone elses plane I'll acknowledge your point Cochin. As you well know everyones custom planes are up for review. He's elected not to have a private conversation, something which you suggested and we tried to carry out. If your view is that EM is somehow entitled to be disrespectful simply for being called out, like everyone. If you can point to a plane near those stats though, we can talk about him being disrespected or singled out. I would also like to point out that all three of us as far as I know are bound to respect the majority decision even if we don't agree with it. It seems to me unwise to politicized the GMship.

In regards to Curristan's post. Curri I looked that up on google. The only things I've found is for remote control hobbyist planes and as power generation. Not for fighter aircraft. If you can show me though a turbofan style aircraft engine that can get that small and weigh less but still put out equal thrust to a full size engine, I'm willing to look at that.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1319663637' post='2832602']Decisions as always are made by a majority of the GMs rather than one specific one.[/quote]
I have to disagree with this: In the context of engineering, I would value Cochin's opinion as being worth more than the other two GMs put together. The majority opinion should only apply to basic RPing rules, not physics/engineering/mechanics where there is quite a well-defined boundary called reality. Given how one (if not some) of the Gms have not been able to back up their own weapons with sufficient numbers, just brushes off any comments on it as "bias" while attempted to prevent constructive discussions, and have already started GMship politicization by accusations of hostility and bias, I have to respect the GM(s) that has/have a more knowledgeable opinion.

That being said, I find it quite interesting that it is always someone who brings out the "stop being hostile" card. Hasn't that been worn out already?

[Triyun]

If you have a problem with the qualification of the GMs, please PM HK-47.

I think what we need to do is all donate all our IRL money to Almighty Admin so that he can poach an aeronautical engineer from Boeing.

Edited October 28, 2011 by Triyun

[Lavo]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1319760243' post='2833259']
I have to disagree with this: In the context of engineering, I would value Cochin's opinion as being worth more than the other two GMs put together. The majority opinion should only apply to basic RPing rules, not physics/engineering/mechanics where there is quite a well-defined boundary called reality. Given how one (if not some) of the Gms have not been able to back up their own weapons with sufficient numbers, just brushes off any comments on it as "bias" while attempted to prevent constructive discussions, and have already started GMship politicization by accusations of hostility and bias, I have to respect the GM(s) that has/have a more knowledgeable opinion.[/quote]
Both I and Shan are in engineering programs; I myself am personally aiming for aerospace in particular. As such, I like to believe I can give a decent opinion on the subject at hand, and as such ask for links to all relevant posts/articles (as I don't watch this thread), and will then give my own opinion on this/these craft(s).

[Sarah Tintagyl]

Personally, for a game of this magnitude, I think HK should require a resume from the people nominated. To be a GM you need to have some rudimentary grasp of Calculus and other upper level physics classes. I know Lavo, Kankou, EM, Malatose and Cochin have at least some knowledge of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering. Personally, Cent needs fired cause he's still a freshman in college and cannot grasp what needs to be known to run this game correctly. Why, Hawk, Sargun, myself or anyone else was given the job is beyond me. But the point still stands and I agree with Kankou, it's necessary for people who know about war machinery and high-tech weapons to be on the GM court.

This is a tech-based game and military knowledge is very important to running it (even though no one uses the weapons they design), so I'd like to petition to HK for new GMs. Malatose and Kankou as head GMs with the possibility of EM and Cochin as apprentice GMs, until they can provide a resume of their mathematical abilities to the community. The rest to be qualified need some university level education or lets face it, you're just not smart enough to play this game.

Edited October 28, 2011 by Sarah Tintagyl

[Kankou]

I believe that would be taking things too far. The main point made was that the "holier-than-thou" attitude that people have (not limited members of the GM team) needs to be dropped. It's getting tiresome for certain individuals to always say others are biased, hostile, what have you. Simply put, we need to recognize that a broader participation is needed for technology, and that to leave everything to the GMs would be against the interests of most of the players. How we bring about broader participation, I'll leave that for now.

PS: Lavo, I love you~ ♥. Be around to play more, will you?

[Sarah Tintagyl]

Oh I agree again, the holier than thou attitude [size="1"]like the one you have in the Technology Thread[/size] needs to be dropped completely. But I mean that's the internet so you might as well get used to it. Let's face it, we're all biased. I think that EM, Vektor, Cochin, Triyun, JED, etc. military threads are completely useless because none of them ever fight and when they do it just becomes a big argument anyways. Are Triyun and Cent biased? Definitely. Are Triyun and Cent asses? Definitely. Is Cochin being biased since EM is his ally and he can benefit from a superfighter that will never see combat? Definitely. Is EM crying for no reason when no one else in the game really cares about his rocket? Definitely. But that's always been the case, who can make the better super weapon. It's just like LVN again and I remember how much you all complained about LVN. This is really the same thing. I remember how everyone complained about Vektor's tech. This is the same thing.

Everyone is biased and while I agree that broader participation would be great. It just ain't gonna happen. Why? Cause EVERYONE is biased.

If Vektor said that EM's !@#$ sucks. Then Kankou and Cochin would get their undies in a bunch.

If Kankou made a super submarine that could blow up a continent, then Cent and Triyun would !@#$ their pants.

You do one of two things:

1. No more self-made weapons. High Tech is 2011 and you link stuff directly from military sites and weapon sites.

2. All weapons are viable and you can have gundams.

Otherwise you're going to have an endless fight of "I have this."

"$%&@ you."

"$%&@ you."

Simple, but that's what all these long drawn out posts are in the GMs Court and the Tech Thread. A big game of my toy is better than yours. Which is realistic cause world leaders are really just big babies who cry about borders on a map.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1319754856' post='2833214']
EMs the only one with a Mach 20 plane that flies 6 times as far as any contemporary plane

[b]CNRP contemporaries or real life contemporaries?[/b]

has a thrust to weigh ratio far above others

t[b]hat's the stated thrust to weight ratio for the engine types themselves. The reason being? I am not using exact real life engines within my aircraft for obvious reasons of size, etc. Thus, I posted the engine CONCEPT type I used, along with its TtW so as to give a loose outline on what it can do. I thought that would be more obvious, as I have not stated in either aircraft posting an actual, definitive thrust value in Lb*f or kN.

The whole reason I posted such info was to be a little more kind to other RPers out there. Instead of simply giving, perhaps, an unaccompanied top speed and range, I wanted to put a little more detail into my designs. I certainly had no intention of lording these tidbits and factoids over other RPers in the off chance that I use them offensively.[/b]

carrying the same amount of fuel
[b]
I admit that when originally posting, I used a set of online 'hobbyist' equations that calculated fuel weight, maximum-take off weight, etc from an empty weight given by the user (me) for some additional details. Again, I had no intention to boast or use this fuel amount number to my advantage, and certainly did not think such an addition could be used against my design to 'disprove it' in the GM's court. I was of the mind that having something was better than nothing. I guess I know better than to think so naively, and have removed fuel weight and similar (seemingly) trivial factoids to alleviate any problems for me in the future.[/b]

has two F-16 sized engines plus the other jet forms

[b]I'm going to assume you mean the Stheno, as that was the only aircraft I actually mentioned having 'possibly' two engines. Again, I'm probably going to go ahead and conform to the rest of the community and simply omit that piece of information.[/b]

and carried over three times the fire power[b]

The Medusa, aka. Pemphredo (such a !@#$%* name compared to the original) is now, following my concession, larger than an F-16, yet carries roughly half its payload (3,600 kg opposed to 7,700 kg), within a much larger volume and only specifically air-to-air, with no alternative should its missiles be expended (gun or DEW). Does it have 8 hardpoints? Yes. Are they internal? Yes. An F-16 has 11 hardpoints in total, all arranged beneath its carriage, the entire lot able to fit inside the Med/Pemph's fuselage comfortably. For example, all the volume between the tip of an F-16's tail to its nose is included, the volume from wingtip to nose, etc.[/b]
[b]
The Stheno, soon to be Deino has a bit of a shorter width, but with much more volume affordable than an F-22, even more so than the Med/Pemph because of my aircraft's bullet bill shape opposed to the flat, diamond shaped pancake the F-22 has. It had 14 pylons for missiles and a single internal 'gun' by the time Cent, Triyun and I were finished with it.[/b]
[b]
These are all unmanned, retaining no cockpit or canopy (more affordable volume within the same space), no life support systems. [/b]

all while weighing less than any contemporary plane.
[b]
See my response to the fuel weight. And posts (if you'd be so inclined) I made earlier on in this discussion. Again, I prefer more over less. I feel the more you write, the better things are. If I must adopt a much more vague set of specifications akin to a cnRPer, then I guess I will.[/b]

If you can show me someone elses plane I'll acknowledge your point Cochin. As you well know everyones custom planes are up for review. He's elected not to have a private conversation, something which you suggested and we tried to carry out. [b]

There was a reason I chose not to have a private conversation. I remember there was a community desire to have a much more open GMing process. One where ground breaking rule implementations and bans would need a community vote to put into place.

The current GMs (I assume that since it's been said that the GMs all rule in concensus, all three GMs ruled in favor of it) have put in place

1) An arbitrary ban on a certain technology (Active camoflage) on a specified platform (aircraft)
2) Set up a review system that is mandatory upon combat aircraft where results and discussions are not publicly displayed as was promised above. A review that depends heavily on a GM (or trio of GMs) to analyze aspects of aircraft design that all GMs have freely admitted to having no expertise on, yet was clearly desired by at least the GMs, as per their logs. Voting for Lynneth's tech scale is not the same as voting for a ban of active camo on aircraft or a Hell's Kitchenesque review of them, especially without a discussion on them. In this review one may post links, but not if these links are disproved by a GM's own research, research that does not need links of its own to prove. This review forces a mandatory level of complexity only seen previously by Rpers who chose to rp so technically by choice.
[/b]

If your view is that EM is somehow entitled to be disrespectful simply for being called out, like everyone. If you can point to a plane near those stats though, we can talk about him being disrespected or singled out. I would also like to point out that all three of us as far as I know are bound to respect the majority decision even if we don't agree with it. It seems to me unwise to politicized the GMship.
[b]
If I were to shed a number of 'extra', or 'additional' specifications I most certainly could. I'm going to say what I stated in the discussion about that 'other', banned design I made, the discussion where you decided to pick up your ball and leave. The one you wanted me to appeal to HK-47 about. The one that has no relation at all to the design i've posted in the thread-that-will-not-be-linked.

"This aircraft does not do everything better than existing aircraft out there – I reduced some gains so that others could be increased - mainly stealth and range for speed and armament, by making the Stheno more akin to a Bullet Bill than a low cross section design in shape. "

As for being disrepectful, and being disrespected in turn - I couldn't give a damn if anyone respected me or not. I will not go out of my way to find links, answers to arguments you made, only to have them rebutted with single sentences, handwaving statements and claims without accompanying proof. I will not kow tow to the present GMs, past GMs, or future GMs unless they give me a damn good reason to.

Why the onus on me to prove my design is greater than the onus of a trio of GMs to disprove it is beyond me. I have not had a chance to produce these aircraft, RP them even flying in the sky, let alone cause another RP to complain about them. They belong to a faction that resides within my own nation, a faction that I don't even RP as anymore - internal RP if I am not mistaken, yet we see a new ruling made by the GMs that seems to be tailor made to ensure they are banned.[/b]


[/quote]

Edited October 28, 2011 by Executive Minister

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Sarah Tintagyl' timestamp='1319775499' post='2833399']
<snip>
[/quote]

Yeah, and let me guess - You're supposed to be the cool revolutionary who gets to watch on the sidelines and complain for CNRP as a whole, to call people out on the supposed 'faults' you see in them when you're too blind to see your own damned faults for yourself.

I Rp here to have fun, I enjoy Rping my !@#$ to the fullest detail, technical complexities are welcome - I enjoy learning about new things. I don't force my RP down anyone's throat.

I don't use my tech because I'm not here to compete against anyone. I'm not here to serve as some sort of rallying banner against the latest boogey man in CNRP. I don't RP for attention, to get compliments. I don't want to be feared, respected or worshiped. I was content enough for years to RP in my own little corner in the world, alone. If people liked what they read, great. If they didn't, oh well. But I certainly never tried to gain the favor of, or power over anyone.

If you want to continue to pit people against others like this for your own pleasure, be my guest. I'm not having any part of this kind of crap anymore. If people want to complain about what I write, go right ahead. But I will defend myself.

I'm gonna have to take a line out of your book and say $%&@ the peanut gallery.

Edited October 28, 2011 by Executive Minister

[Sarah Tintagyl]

No, you're right and I apologize for my harsh words. I offered what I saw as the problem and argument between yourself and Triyun and attempted to give my opinion. That said, hopefully you guys will come to a peace between you. But you're right, I've become too blind and cynical for my own good. So I do appreciate you pointing that out to me.

[king of cochin]

[quote name='Lavo_2' timestamp='1319769514' post='2833344']
Both I and Shan are in engineering programs; I myself am personally aiming for aerospace in particular. As such, I like to believe I can give a decent opinion on the subject at hand, and as such ask for links to all relevant posts/articles (as I don't watch this thread), and will then give my own opinion on this/these craft(s).
[/quote]

@Lavo : I would much appreciate a review from you of Executive Minister's designs.

I never said that Executive Minister's designs should be accepted as such, however I do feel the arguments and tech links he has presented have not been properly rebutted and a hasty GM decision as the one made by Triyun was uncalled for.

When you bring a new ordinance to CNRP, especially a technology related one it needs greater discussion and not one from a trio of GMs who may or may not be very technically capable to understand its pros and cons. Myself I am not very well versed in avionics so I deferred to the judgment of Triyun and Cent who seemed to be better aware of its ins and outs but following the discussion I have understood that despite EM making concessions and corrections to every fault pointed out by Triyun and Cent, they have dismissed his design without adequate rebuttal. That is something I cannot stand for.

I know that Lavo is quite well versed in the subject at hand and thus I hope Lavo would consent to review Executive Minister's aircraft designs under question, especially his latest more modified designs in terms of its feasibility not under reality, but under CNRP tech limits.

@Sarah : It was extremely unbecoming of you to rant in that fashion. My intervention in a ruling that I hitherto remained a silent spectator was of, is because of my resolution to be unbiased. I dont care if EM is my ally or enemy, as a GM my only consideration is that he or she is given due justice in the Court. If I was so against EM's techs being scrutinized why would I even then agree to the Tech review process as agreed by us GMs? I am really disappointed in you. If you feel I am that biased a judge, then please feel free to report me to the mods and request my kicking out as a GM.

[TheShammySocialist]

After reading this last line of conversation going on in this court, I might have a suggestion that could be beneficial.

Since I've been part of CNRP, I've seen the level of arguing about technology continue to increase at a exponential rate, and rulings involving technology have become more and more prevalent. This has basically split the job of GM into two actual categories; enforcing the rules, style, doing spy rolls, et cetera in terms of making sure everyone is roleplaying [i]correctly[/i] with the parameters that have been laid out, and enforcing rulings on technology.

Something I would like to throw out there for discussion, is the possibility of splitting GMs into two different categories; a set of technology GMs, and the other making more generalized rulings. In all honesty, I think that the roles of the GMs are two specifically distinct jobs; enforcing general rules, and making rulings on technology. Having two groups of GMs that are focused in one certain "area", would increase effectiveness, and spread out authority, as well evenly spreading out the workload.

[Justinian the Mighty]

I would like to throw out the idea of abolishing the GM position and returning CNRP to the masses. The system we have now is inefficeint and representative of a bygone era. We CNRP'ers have evolved past this phase of history and no longer need, nor desire the GM class to rule over us. The GM's claim their right to rule over CNRP comes from magical people called Moderators who are themselves apointed by a supreme ruler of the universe, the Admin. I could not imagine a more insane system of rule. Therefore we must revolt, rp'ers have nothing to lose but their chains. [b]RP'ERS OF ALL COUNTRIES, UNITE![/b]

Edited October 28, 2011 by Justinian the Mighty

[Generalissimo]

[quote name='TheShammySocialist' timestamp='1319832862' post='2833877']Since I've been part of CNRP, I've seen the level of arguing about technology continue to increase at a exponential rate, and rulings involving technology have become more and more prevalent. This has basically split the job of GM into two actual categories; enforcing the rules, style, doing spy rolls, et cetera in terms of making sure everyone is roleplaying [i]correctly[/i] with the parameters that have been laid out, and enforcing rulings on technology.

Something I would like to throw out there for discussion, is the possibility of splitting GMs into two different categories; a set of technology GMs, and the other making more generalized rulings. In all honesty, I think that the roles of the GMs are two specifically distinct jobs; enforcing general rules, and making rulings on technology. Having two groups of GMs that are focused in one certain "area", would increase effectiveness, and spread out authority, as well evenly spreading out the workload.[/quote]I disagree.
To avoid arguments about technology we should stop making detailed technology descriptions mandatory.

Let’s go back to “LOL”-technology.
If a country has X technology their fighter jet performs at a level of X technology – details not necessary.

[KaiserMelech Mikhail]

I vote that people stop being so anal about this. If Triyun says your planes can't go mach 20, deal with it. If Triyun says your plane can't go 2,000 miles on a combat run, deal with it. Find a creative way to do something (although it doesn't matter because 99% of a war is nuking the !@#$ out of the other guy).

[Mogar]

I'd support the GMs not being RPers, perhaps retired RPers or something, then accusations of bias couldn't really be thrown around, since they wouldn't have a stake in a ruling.

[HHAYD]

[quote name='TheShammySocialist' timestamp='1319832862' post='2833877']
After reading this last line of conversation going on in this court, I might have a suggestion that could be beneficial.

Since I've been part of CNRP, I've seen the level of arguing about technology continue to increase at a exponential rate, and rulings involving technology have become more and more prevalent. This has basically split the job of GM into two actual categories; enforcing the rules, style, doing spy rolls, et cetera in terms of making sure everyone is roleplaying [i]correctly[/i] with the parameters that have been laid out, and enforcing rulings on technology.

Something I would like to throw out there for discussion, is the possibility of splitting GMs into two different categories; a set of technology GMs, and the other making more generalized rulings. In all honesty, I think that the roles of the GMs are two specifically distinct jobs; enforcing general rules, and making rulings on technology. Having two groups of GMs that are focused in one certain "area", [b]would increase effectiveness, and spread out authority, as well evenly spreading out the workload.[/b]
[/quote]
This. I don't see how our current GM system will work under the current workload and the ever increasing tech-complaint workload. Slapping more GMs into a single court would only increase the time that it takes to get something done.

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1319843314' post='2834074']
I'd support the GMs not being RPers, perhaps retired RPers or something, then accusations of bias couldn't really be thrown around, since they wouldn't have a stake in a ruling.
[/quote]

The main issue is, what if the GMs don't understand CNRP because they haven't been involved with it and makes unpopular rulings due to misunderstanding?

Edited October 28, 2011 by HHAYD

[Mogar]

thats why i figure perhaps a retired CNRPer, I definitely agree anyone making rulings on technology needs to prove their qualifications to actually make a ruling that is set in reality, I dont believe someone with an art major would have any clue on the mechanics of aircraft.

[KaiserMelech Mikhail]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1319843314' post='2834074']
I'd support the GMs not being RPers, perhaps retired RPers or something, then accusations of bias couldn't really be thrown around, since they wouldn't have a stake in a ruling.
[/quote]
Unfortunately, most of the good RPers left CN when they left CNRP.

[HHAYD]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1319843721' post='2834076']
thats why i figure perhaps a retired CNRPer, I definitely agree anyone making rulings on technology needs to prove their qualifications to actually make a ruling that is set in reality, I dont believe someone with an art major would have any clue on the mechanics of aircraft.
[/quote]
Almost all retired CNRPers have retired from CN as well, or are tired up with CN politics.

[PresidentDavid]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1319843721' post='2834076']
thats why i figure perhaps a retired CNRPer, I definitely agree anyone making rulings on technology needs to prove their qualifications to actually make a ruling that is set in reality, I dont believe someone with an art major would have any clue on the mechanics of aircraft.
[/quote]

Will the [b]Electrical Engineer/Retired NASA Mission Control Man/Rocket Scientist/Aeronautics Expert that has served in the Air Force[/b] please raise their hand? I think y'all care to much about the specifics of technology and exactly how everything should work. Just RP a God dang story and have fun with it

Edited October 31, 2011 by PresidentDavid